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Stand your ground only legal if you guess right? Another no-knock gone bad

color of law

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http://www.theeagle.com/news/local/article_549b0586-cefc-53a2-bd34-80a8f07816b4.html
In an affidavit for a warrant to search Sowders' trailer after the shooting, Texas Ranger Andres de la Garza wrote, "By Magee's own admission he heard and observed the entry made by the SWAT team."
I think this cop got an A in creative writing class.

Also, notice the angle of the picture of deputy Adam Sowders. That angle is taken to convey dominance.

Why has not the original warrant been released for public scrutiny?
 

sudden valley gunner

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If you knock and announce when there are lotsa BGs inside, you give them time to prepare for battle.

That is the only reason you can conceive of. But the fact that you could conceive of one means that there is a place for no-knocks. They just need to be incredibly rare. Judges need to require a high hurdle for justification and for proof of that claimed justification.


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<o>

So? I don't care if it gives them time for battle, if it isn't an exigent circumstance (not the fake they are going to flush the evidence, I mean human life in danger) then they shouldn't be done at all.

Let's not sacrifice rights for safety.
 

BrianB

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Guys , not just you svg a few gave said this same thing "arrrest him outside", this was a search warrant for his house. They suspected illegal guns and drugs at this residence. I'm under the impression it was NOT a body warrant. If it was an ARREST warrant then i agree with everyone here. Wait till walks out to his car and grab him.

Listen someone's house is the LAST place you want to serve any type of warrant and this case illustrates exactly why. Its your castle. So to violently intrude upon said place is extremely dangerous not just from bad guys but from law abiding citizens.

Again if its a search warrant then you have to enter this residence. Bit then the issue is if you knock wait the few seconds yell police knock then breach your giving time for him to grab rifle and or destroy evidence.

I mean this is a good example of bad things. Their reasoning for the no knock was they thought it had guns and it was violent. Well he had guns and he killed someone. So how far off were they? IF he was legitimately unaware that multiple dudes coming in with rifles vests and flash bangs was not police then ok. But for some reason this smells like he shot someone and is trying to get off. I could be wrong I'll wait for more info

If it's an active meth lab that might explode and injure or kill others, then that's an exigency that might warrant the intrusion - but the bomb squad and the fire department should be there too if it's going to smell legit. A few pot plants endanger nobody and aren't worth officers risking their lives for. That's just stupid.

If getting these 3 evil plants off the street was so damn important they should have waited until nobody was home, gain entry, confiscate the plants, and so on.

This country does some really idiotic things in pursuit of this "drug war".
 

eye95

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I don't care if you don't care. I care. And the cops care. I am sure the judges care. The families of the cops care.

Your argument is so beyond the pale as to warrant cutting off this subdiscussion. Moving on.


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<o>
 

sudden valley gunner

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I don't care if you don't care. I care. And the cops care. I am sure the judges care. The families of the cops care.

Your argument is so beyond the pale as to warrant cutting off this subdiscussion. Moving on.


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<o>

Then you don't go in and nobody gets harmed, or if you don't like the dangers of being a cop within a constitutionally restricted limits you don't be a cop.
 

Primus

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I am not saying arrest him outside. I don't think anyone is.

We are saying, wait for him to go outside, serve the warrant, and go in. If you wait for him to leave the building, you obviate the need for a no-knock.

Barring extraordinary circumstances, I'd think that cops would think that no-knocks are dangerous and should be avoided!


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<o>

I apologize if that's the case but I'm pretty certain at a least 3 guys have said "arrest him outside". A search warrant doesn't involve an arrest unless you find something bad. You cab serve a search warrant and find nothing then just leave.

I honestly believe some guys were getting that mixed up but I could be wrong

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Primus

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So? I don't care if it gives them time for battle, if it isn't an exigent circumstance (not the fake they are going to flush the evidence, I mean human life in danger) then they shouldn't be done at all.

Let's not sacrifice rights for safety.

Nice. Time for battle. Easy from a guy who's never been in battle.

There's so many things wrong its crazy. I'm stepping off since its Christmas and I'm not dealing with this nonsense before I go to work this afternoon.

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sudden valley gunner

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Nice. Time for battle. Easy from a guy who's never been in battle.

There's so many things wrong its crazy. I'm stepping off since its Christmas and I'm not dealing with this nonsense before I go to work this afternoon.

Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk


You know jack shite about me, and what I have or havent been in.

But this reply does nothing to refute what has been said more.......fallacy from the apologist.
 

77zach

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Marion County, FL
Amazing, the fact that no knocks were almost never done for a century of policing is down the memory hole for some people.
 

stealthyeliminator

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Texas
Somehow I don't think I've ever heard of a "no announce" warrant before... I can see very few situations where it might even be close to "right" and also very few where I think it'd be wise... In this case, I seriously doubt it was either.

This is just inference, but it sounds to me like the type of warrant applied for was based on a recommendation by the DA. That raises some issues as well, me thinks. Probably also problematic that the judge signed it. Problems all around, leading up to this event.

Was their case really justification for a full-on, hidden-identity tactical assault (which they apparently aren't very good at considering he apparently had time to wake up, grab a rifle and then fire as the lead man came through the door), or was it actually just an excuse for them to play commando in the middle of the night?
 

stealthyeliminator

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If you knock and announce when there are lotsa BGs inside, you give them time to prepare for battle.

That is the only reason you can conceive of. But the fact that you could conceive of one means that there is a place for no-knocks. They just need to be incredibly rare. Judges need to require a high hurdle for justification and for proof of that claimed justification.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk.

<o>

Apparently if you no-knock and no-announce you give them time to prepare for battle.
 

sudden valley gunner

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Amazing, the fact that no knocks were almost never done for a century of policing is down the memory hole for some people.

Or the fact that we did better without proactive government policing. I believe it was Tocqueville who commented on how well Americans policed themselves and how it worked way better than the policed countries of Europe.
 

solus

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Aug 22, 2013
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here nc
query, does anybody know how LE (read judicial processes in general) in the Hoosier state are dealing with their new 2012 constraints where residents can use deadly force against public servants, including law enforcement officers, who unlawfully enter their homes?

i do know i have not read or seen anything on national news of hoards of LE being massacred by Hoosier citizens since 2012

just a curiosity...

ipse
 

WalkingWolf

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The only time a no knock warrant is justified, IMO, is in the case of a hostage, or someone already a suspect of violent crimes. The question is does the person pose a immediate threat to people. If not there are better ways to safely make arrests.

IMO these violent arrests for non violent crimes are a crime. If the story pans out, IMO the arrested is not guilty.
 

eye95

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Amazing, the fact that no knocks were almost never done for a century of policing is down the memory hole for some people.

And prior to the fictional Sherlock Holmes, real investigators never used deduction and physical evidence. Yet investigators now routinely use these today. Should we not?
 

davidmcbeth

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And prior to the fictional Sherlock Holmes, real investigators never used deduction and physical evidence. Yet investigators now routinely use these today. Should we not?

??? trying to tie two unrelated items together?

Wait, you forgot penicillin and antibiotic use ....
 

Citizen

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SNIP Again if its a search warrant then you have to enter this residence. Bit then the issue is if you knock wait the few seconds yell police knock then breach your giving time for him to grab rifle and or destroy evidence.

There ya go folks. The primary reason for these paramilitary raids.

The police say they need an infantry squad because drugs and guns go hand in hand. Trust me, there would have been a paramilitary raid even if the guy was not known to have weapons or a willingness to use them. Just think back to how many incidents you've seen reported in the press. Now, how many reported the police had information the residents were known in advance to be armed and willing to fight back.

Courts have long recognized the police viewpoint that guns and drugs go hand-in-hand. Just spend a little time on FourthAmendment.com and see how many times you come across information to the effect that this court or that court approved a Terry patdown or local search for weapons when a drug offense was articulably suspected.

So, the police report that they suspected the guy had guns and was willing to use them is a red-herring. All it took was for it to be a drug search. Once its a drug search, police will take advantage of the idea they established that guns and drugs go hand in hand, and therefore overwhelming firepower is justified (according to police).

But, that's not the key point. That's just how you end up with a paramilitary squad instead of a few investigators and patrolmen.

The key point is the destruction of evidence. You can't flush stolen stereo equipment. You can't flush ten thousand dollars drug money. You can't flush kilos of MJ, heroin, or cocaine either. Its the smaller amounts of drugs that are flushable.

So, because smaller amounts of drugs are flushable, you now have a "justification" for kicking in a door and barging in rather than knocking and waiting until someone answers the door. And, since cops say drugs and guns go together, a paramilitary squad does the door-kicking.
 
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