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Thread: fatal police shooting today

  1. #1
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    fatal police shooting today



    From what I read the dead subject was a real scum bag who probably deserved to be shot dead.

    However, I couldn't help but notice how far the shell casings were from the subjects body and the fact it appeared he had bullet wounds to the back of the head.
    Last edited by onus; 12-27-2013 at 02:51 AM.

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    Regular Member Primus's Avatar
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    Exit wound.

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    Quote Originally Posted by onus View Post


    From what I read the dead subject was a real scum bag who probably deserved to be shot dead.

    However, I couldn't help but notice how far the bullets were from the subjects body and the fact it appeared he had bullet wounds to the back of the head.
    OR, ejected CARTRIDGE BRASS not bullets and an EXIT wound from the back of the head.

    No comment on the justification or not of the shooting. Just putting a little REALITY to the suggestions of the youTube video editor.

    Reminds me of the Muslim woman holding the complete UNFIRED cartridge and bullet for the photo claiming to have "that bullet" fired at her!

    ONUS, you do know the difference between a bullet and a cartridge? Well, do you?
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    Regular Member Primus's Avatar
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    Sparky you beat me to it... was going to ask how the bullets went through him then landed in a neat pile in the grass.

    They make shiny brass bullets right? Or wait... are those the casings? Lol



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    Quote Originally Posted by JoeSparky View Post

    ONUS, you do know the difference between a bullet and a cartridge? Well, do you?
    I do. I was typing quickly and not thinking.

    The police version is that the subject was hiding in the girls restroom. Police found him there and he bolted from the restroom. Police chased and the subject had a knife and the police shot and killed him.

    My question is how come the body is so far away from the shell casings ? The shell casings are all in the same general place so the shooter was stationary and not running.

    The subject appears to be a "safe" distance away from the officers if he only had a knife.

    This department is well known for shooting unarmed people.
    Last edited by onus; 12-27-2013 at 02:51 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by onus View Post
    I do. I was typing quickly and not thinking.

    The police version is that the subject was hiding in the girls restroom. Police found him there and he bolted from the restroom. Police chased and the subject had a knife and the police shot and killed him.

    My question is how come the body is so far away from the shell casings ? The shell casings are all in the same general place so the shooter was stationary and not running.

    The subject appears to be a "safe" distance away from the officers if he only had a knife.

    This department is well known for shooting unarmed people.
    Thank you for providing yet another example of the kind of "logic" that I would expect from the anti-cop types.

    Implicit in your statement about the subject appearing to be a safe distance away from the officers, based on what appears to be locations of casings vs. the body is

    ...

    wait for it...

    Your assumption that the reason/justification for the police shooting was self defense. That is the only situation where the person being a "safe distance" from the police would be meaningful.

    Under deadly force justification (3) (read on), the farther away the subject is from the cops, suggests GREATER not less justification...

    hmmm...


    Nothing in the article or statements by police that i have seen would lead me to CONCLUDE that they shot in self defense.

    There are several other justifications that meet constitutional scrutiny and are written into most state's laws explicitly.

    It is justified in certain circumstances where a person is escaping from jail/prison

    for example, in WA deadly force is authorized:
    To prevent the escape of a person from a federal or state correctional facility or in retaking a person who escapes from such a facility; To prevent the escape of a person from a county or city jail or holding facility if the person has been arrested for, charged with, or convicted of a felony;

    Ok, THAT doesn't apply here. So, what is the THIRD type of situation where deadly force is justified? Heck, you are assuming that a shoot in self defense was NOT authorized

    Ok, ASSUMING that is true, the person (not you) who actually understood the law/constitutional restrictions on deadly force situations faced by police officers realizes there are essentially 3. (1) is self defense (2) is escape from jail/prison etc

    What is (3)?

    The following conditions must be present...

    (1) a police officer has reasonable cause to believe the person has committed a crime involving the use of deadly force or threatened deadly force

    Ok, is that the case here? Most definitely.

    Oh, HELL ya.

    Prior to their encountering him at the school, they knew he was "A man suspected of setting the apartment of his ex-girlfriend and their 2-year-old son on fire and then setting his mother's home ablaze"

    Does that meet (1)? Of course.

    He was suspected of attempted murder and arson. That condition (1) has been met is irrefutable.

    Furthermore,
    “He threatened his family and threatened to kill police if confronted,”

    SO, given that condition (1) has been met- not subject to debate. Crystal clear. AND

    assuming arguendo, the cops did not shoot in self defense. Iow, assuming it wasn't even their intent./reason for shooting, as well as the assumption that even if that WAS the cop's intent, it would not have been justified due to the distance...


    What could have justified it? In your eyes, nothing. Because you forget about the third justification for deadly force, which is


    GIVEN condition (1),

    Deadly force is then justifiable (I am paraphrasing from memory, but feel free to look it up. WA's version is RCW 9a.16.040) if a police officer has probable cause to believe that if they don't apprehend the suspect, he poses a "threat of serious physical harm to others". Given the type of crime he is accused of , and his further threats (not necessary but nice), and his running around the school armed etc.

    POLICE MAY USE DEADLY FORCE TO PREVENT ESCAPE.

    hth

    Note that "when practicable" a verbal warning should be given. The RCW and most penal codes mention that. e.g. "Stop, or we will shoot". As long as it's practicable, make the warning!

    CRUCIALLY, note that in the case of the fleeing violent felon, IN CONTRAST to a self defense shooting, there need NOT be an "imminent" threat. That is not necessary.

    Cop haters always say there was no imminent threat. Many times they are wrong, but in many cases, such as shootings under prong (3) , imminence is irrelevant.

    I can think of countless examples. Cops have shot armed bank robbers in the back, as they flee a bank and are about to get away. Totally justified.

    We had an incident a little ways back where during our debrief and review, the number one criticism the officers had of their own actions was they did NOT shoot the person after he had committed a serious violent crime agsainst a family member, and they located him outside another one of his relative's house. They gave ample warning, he turn and ran, forcing his way into the house. ABSOLUTELY should have shot him. To his credit, my sgt and a few others, ran into the back of the house that they had been surveilling as part of their perimeter, and rushed an occupant out of the house, possibly saving her life.

    But regardless, the review as well as opinions from a couple of attorneys (one of whom was a prosecutor), that would have been a classic justified shoot.

    It was an example where restraint was actually TOO much. cop critics would never concede sometimes cops are too restrained in deadly force, but that case was a perfect example.

    Many people don't know about the fleeing felon rule. Others, think it was removed due to Tenn v. Garner. Not true. It just narrowed the justifiction to fleeing felons who have threatened or used violence. Not mere felons, like a burglar or car thief.

    Sorry to be snarky, but it gets so tiresome when cop critics and ESPECIALLY cop shooting critics are so woefully ignorant of deadly force law. It is NOT that complicated, but "justification 3" so to speak is poorly understood by them ime. Just like you

    Of course, another possibility is that where the body is seen LYING, allegedly too far from where the cops were presumed to have been standing as evidenced by where the casings apparently lie...

    is NOT where he was shot.

    People can run, or turn and run after being shot multiple times. So, the location of his body is not necessarily the location that he was in when shot

    Any person who is qualified to analyze deadly force incidents would NEVER assume that a body lying at position X = that police shot him at position X

    You can't even get the simple stuff right.
    Ill give you a little slack, because you clearly don[t have the background, training, or education in deadly force law, as well as knowledge of scenarios of deadly force, that would give you some perspective and understanding and allow you to consider the various circs where this shooting would be justified.

    Note: I am not saying this shooting was justified. Or not justified. There is NO way whatasoever to draw a conclusion based on what we know at this point.

    I have no idea, nor do you

    hth
    Last edited by PALO; 12-27-2013 at 05:32 AM.

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Yet seems cops in my state so often forget this little legislative note in the law.....From RCW. 9A.16.040

    Legislative recognition: "The legislature recognizes that RCW 9A.16.040 establishes a dual standard with respect to the use of deadly force by peace officers and private citizens, and further recognizes that private citizens' permissible use of deadly force under the authority of RCW 9.01.200, 9A.16.020, or 9A.16.050 is not restricted and remains broader than the limitations imposed on peace officers."

    Flies in the face that cops and citizens have all the same rights too....I never tire of posting this little bit of law.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Regular Member wimwag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onus View Post
    I do. I was typing quickly and not thinking.

    The police version is that the subject was hiding in the girls restroom. Police found him there and he bolted from the restroom. Police chased and the subject had a knife and the police shot and killed him.

    My question is how come the body is so far away from the shell casings ? The shell casings are all in the same general place so the shooter was stationary and not running.

    The subject appears to be a "safe" distance away from the officers if he only had a knife.
    Tueller Drill. The average male can run 21 feet in about 1.5 seconds and stab you before you can react, draw and fire. Google it.

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    Regular Member wimwag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onus View Post
    I do. I was typing quickly and not thinking.

    Suggest fixing these issues! LOL
    RIGHTS don't exist without RESPONSIBILITY!
    If one is not willing to stand for his rights, he doesn't have any Rights.
    I will strive to stand for the rights of ANY person, even those folks with whom I disagree!
    As said by SVG--- "I am not anti-COP, I am PRO-Citizen" and I'll add, PRO-Constitution.
    If the above makes me a RADICAL or EXTREME--- So be it!

    Life Member NRA
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    2nd amendment says.... "...The right of the people to keep and bear arms SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED!"

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    Quote Originally Posted by wimwag View Post
    Tueller Drill. The average male can run 21 feet in about 1.5 seconds and stab you before you can react, draw and fire. Google it.
    in this case the police were chasing the suspect and they knew he had a knife when they started to chase him (according to police)

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    Quote Originally Posted by wimwag View Post
    Tueller Drill. The average male can run 21 feet in about 1.5 seconds and stab you before you can react, draw and fire. Google it.
    Wrong. The "drill" simply states that the they can cover 21 feet in 1.5 seconds. If you seem someone charging you with a weapon, you still have time to react, and the original drill doesn't even take into account and defensive actions you might take.

    Though that doesn't apply in this case as the deceased was running away and thus not a direct threat to the police.

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    Regular Member wimwag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aknazer View Post
    Wrong. The "drill" simply states that the they can cover 21 feet in 1.5 seconds. If you seem someone charging you with a weapon, you still have time to react, and the original drill doesn't even take into account and defensive actions you might take.

    Though that doesn't apply in this case as the deceased was running away and thus not a direct threat to the police.
    Logic states that the guy is covering 21 feet in 1.5 seconds and no matter how badass you think you are, you are most certainly going to be cut unless you train specifically for that situation. Your reaction time will eat up maybe a half second, fine motor skills will be null and void, adrenaline will give you the shakes and your aim will be only a fraction of what it is on paper. 2 inch group? Try one hit to the arm and 6 misses and he still has momentum and a knife. A man can plunge that into your ribs or throat on the run, his weight giving the knife more power to transfer into your flesh. Or maybe you turn Rambo and draw that .45 and fire at the same time he reaches you, bullet into him, knife into the spot he picked as he charged, right under your ribs, and you both go down, him on top of you, hand still on the knife. Maybe he punctures your lung and the collision causes the knife to twist. Pain blurs vision slows movement and saps strength. Reference this video:
    http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=R4MfMZ8...eature=related

    You can continue to split hairs, but I've already explained my post and need to go no further.

    Somebody please teach me how to embed video.
    Last edited by wimwag; 12-28-2013 at 09:44 AM. Reason: Punctuation

  14. #14
    Regular Member wimwag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onus View Post
    in this case the police were chasing the suspect and they knew he had a knife when they started to chase him (according to police)
    He could easily have turned around or waited just around the corner of the building or behind a car and attacked. In the heat of the moment, men do what they must. I'm with the cops on this one. He was a grave threat to life. It had to end there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wimwag View Post
    Tueller Drill. The average male can run 21 feet in about 1.5 seconds and stab you before you can react, draw and fire. Google it.
    Great example, EXCEPT police usually have their firearms ALREADY trained on a subject with a knife.

    NO man can run 15, 21, 50 feet in the amount of time a trigger can be pulled once or MULTIPLE times.


    My money says autopsy results are NOT made public in this case. Or maybe they will, heck the deputy in Santa Rosa got away with shooting a kid in the back who had a toy gun.

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    Another Onus thread ala Cop Watch - not the intent or purpose of OCDO.

    Trying a case from a video and making assumptive comments is really a bit much.

    Locked.
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