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Thread: Just stumbled across this gem of a BS stop and cite

  1. #1
    Regular Member stealthyeliminator's Avatar
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    Just stumbled across this gem of a BS stop and cite

    Get ready for your blood to boil.

    http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=6ea_1387991405

    Guy gets stopped by a cop who thought he might be smoking. He doesn't answer her questions, so she hassles him for a few minutes, tells him he can't talk while he's being detained, cites him for loitering, and then trespasses him from the property.

    Honestly, even without the whole infringement of rights part, this woman is a bitch...
    Advocate freedom please

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    That cop should pray she does not meet me....

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    The video IMO was an interesting exercise in abuse of power by certain limited officers.

    HOWEVER, the ending statements of the principal are beyond reasonable assertions and constitute a violation of OCDO Forum Rules.

    (6) NO PERSONAL ATTACKS: While you may disagree strongly with another poster based upon their opinion, we will NOT tolerate any personal attacks or general bashing of groups of people based upon race, religion, national origin, sex, sexual orientation, gender-identity or choice of occupation (e.g., being a law enforcement officer, in the military, etc).

    That and holding court on the street seldom ends well - he could have handled himself better.


    Edited to add: my comments & reference to the Forum Rules is not a reflection on the OP but rather making a point about the video itself.
    Last edited by Grapeshot; 12-28-2013 at 11:36 AM. Reason: Added
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

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    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    More reinforcement as to why you Should NOT carry identification cards with you unless you are purchasing a restricted item, cashing a check at a place that doesn't know you, or getting airline tickets.



    "I need to see your ID, Sir."

    "Sure, let's go back to my car and get it. I'm pretty sure that's where I left it this morning. Dang, I hope I can remember where I parked, my short term memory is kinda hinky."

    The only link that I can find to Utah's Code on Loitering, apparently requires several actions on behalf of both the officer and the accused before it applies. I strongly suspect the officer knows this, and knows the charge will be nolo pross'd by the county attorney. That strongly suggests the charge is being used for harassment and nothing more.
    Last edited by Fallschirmjäger; 12-27-2013 at 07:48 PM.

  5. #5
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fallschirmjäger View Post
    More reinforcement as to why you Should NOT carry identification cards with you unless you are purchasing a restricted item, cashing a check at a place that doesn't know you, or getting airline tickets.

    "I need to see your ID, Sir."

    "Sure, let's go back to my car and get it. I'm pretty sure that's where I left it this morning. Dang, I hope I can remember where I parked, my short term memory is kinda hinky."
    But, but, but slow down and think where we would be w/o stop and identify laws

    Even tongue in cheek, I'm not going to play mental defect card while carrying though - that might bite me in the ask me no questions I don't want to answer.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  6. #6
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    UNFORTUNATELY, this situation occurred in my state of residence and less than 1 hours drive from my location. I don't know the poster of the video OR the final outcome of the situation.

    A couple of things I noted from the video--- The CLAIM by the OEO that UTA property was private. Utah Transit Authority is a UTAH STATE tax supported and funds agency tasked with mass transit in the State of Utah.

    First officer asks if person is smoking--- he responds by suggesting poorly that he has rights against self-incrimination. Upon arrival of backup, the backup tells the accused he is loitering which I never heard the investigation officer say in the video up to this point.

    Utah does have a specific law (Utah indoor clean air act) which prohibits MOST smoking indoors or within 25 feet of an entrance to a building. I don't smoke so I am not sure about additional requirements of this law OR WHETHER IT WAS EVEN POSSIBLE TO BE VIOLATED IN THIS CASE.
    RIGHTS don't exist without RESPONSIBILITY!
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    As said by SVG--- "I am not anti-COP, I am PRO-Citizen" and I'll add, PRO-Constitution.
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    The cops were thugs, but the videographer behaved stupidly. He talks about knowing his rights, but surrenders his ID card. He says he won't answer questions, and then answers some. He finishes up with a mindless rant against all cops. He had some sympathy from me until then. These cops were thugs. Not all cops are.

    Oh, and you think he would have spell-checked before posting this video.

    BTW, what is U.T.A. UT at Austin? If this is private property, how does a cop trespass the citizen? Only the owner or his agent can do that. If this is public property, how does a cop deny him the right to use that public property without due process of law? In what jurisdiction is it a misdemeanor to refuse to sign a ticket? Or did the thug cop lie again?

    On edit: I see from Joe's post that this is Utah Transit Authority. How does a cop deny a man his right to be on transit property, thereby denying his right to use it, without due process?
    Last edited by eye95; 12-27-2013 at 08:09 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fallschirmjäger View Post
    More reinforcement as to why you Should NOT carry identification cards with you unless you are purchasing a restricted item, cashing a check at a place that doesn't know you, or getting airline tickets.



    "I need to see your ID, Sir."

    "Sure, let's go back to my car and get it. I'm pretty sure that's where I left it this morning. Dang, I hope I can remember where I parked, my short term memory is kinda hinky."

    The only link that I can find to Utah's Code on Loitering, apparently requires several actions on behalf of both the officer and the accused before it applies. I strongly suspect the officer knows this, and knows the charge will be nolo pross'd by the county attorney. That strongly suggests the charge is being used for harassment and nothing more.
    Every time I think of the ways you deflected conversation during your park encounter makes me smile.

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    Holding court

    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    The video IMO was an interesting exercise in abuse of power by certain limited officers.

    HOWEVER, the ending statements of the principal are beyond reasonable assertions and constitute a violation of OCDO Forum Rules.

    (6) NO PERSONAL ATTACKS: While you may disagree strongly with another poster based upon their opinion, we will NOT tolerate any personal attacks or general bashing of groups of people based upon race, religion, national origin, sex, sexual orientation, gender-identity or choice of occupation (e.g., being a law enforcement officer, in the military, etc).

    That and holding court on the street seldom ends well - he could have handled himself better.

    Absolutely right. ******* off the cops will guarantee you a ticket for something. Keep your mouth shut and wait until you get to court where someone else is in charge. I have seen a judge throw the cop in jail for contempt of court. You always get more flies with honey than with vinegar

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    Quote Originally Posted by stealthyeliminator View Post
    Get ready for your blood to boil.
    Yeah, I boiled over.

    The BIG PROBLEM, as I see it, is the cop demanding ID. Although she actually doesn't demand ID but instead she keeps repeating the phrase, "I need to see some ID."

    Utah is one of approx. 25 states with some form of "Stop and Identify" statute that allow police to detain people who are suspected of committing a crime and request such persons to identify themselves, and in some cases arrest them if they refuse.

    The Utah code reads,

    "77-7-15. Authority of peace officer to stop and question suspect -- Grounds.

    A peace officer may stop any person in a public place when he has a reasonable suspicion to believe he has committed or is in the act of committing or is attempting to commit a public offense and may demand his name, address and an explanation of his actions."

    NOWHERE IN THE LAW DOES IT STATE THAT THE SUSPECT IS REQUIRED TO PROVIDE HIS/HER ID, just that they have to give the cop their name IF there is RAS. That is why the cop keeps saying "I need to see your ID." The man should have replied something like, "Well, that's too bad because under 77-7-15 I'm not required to provide identification" and steadfastly refused to hand his papers over. He would have been much less likely to have been cited if he didn't give the sad excuse for a LEO his ID card.

    The moral of the story is to know what your state's "Stop and Identify" law actually says. In some states such as Rhode Island it is required to produce ID on demand no exceptions.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stop_a...ntify_statutes

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    But, but, but slow down and think where we would be w/o stop and identify laws...
    Well, only 25 states have such a law.

    In Montana, for example our law requires the cops to "inform the person as promptly as possible under the circumstances and in any case before questioning the person that the officer is a peace officer." So they are REQUIRED to state their RAS ASAP. Perhaps the poor young man being hassled by these Utah cops wouldn't have been so quick to detain him if they too were required to provide a valid statement of RAS immediately upon detention.

    Also, in Montana the cops are ONLY allowed to "REQUEST the person's name and present address and an explanation of the person's actions..." So refusing to produce an ID card isn't a crime. Nor is refusing to give them your name as the cops are only allowed to "request" your name.

    Also, in Montana the cops can only detain a suspect with what the law calls "particularized suspicion." This is a step higher than just mere RAS.

    So YEAH, I can't imagine just what a stinking and despicable POLICE STATE Montana would be without our GREAT Stop AND ID law that keeps the cops in check.
    Last edited by Augustin; 12-27-2013 at 09:00 PM. Reason: fix typo

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    UTA - Utah Transit Authority
    A public entity, a local political subdivision of the state, a transit district.

    Their rules are actually ordinances and carry the weight of law just like city ordinances.

    The have their own state certified police officers.

    Smoking in unlawful, except in designated outdoor areas.

    We do not know his previous history on UTA property or with this or other LEO.

    Problem is that the video does not show the beginning of the encounter.

    If the dude was smoking and he was smoking outside the designated area he was in violation of the law.

    If the LEO saw him (or had other RAS that he was) smoking outside a designated area, she had absolute authority to detain the gentleman.

    I suspect his attitude (poor and verbose) bought him the 'not respecting her authority' (loitering) citation and the trespass warning was just icing on the cake.

    The problem I have is that she did not cite him for smoking and that causes me concern. i.e. she did not actually see him smoking and even though she was a female dog about the situation, she was unwilling to take the extra step and overtly lie about that.
    No other explanation would make since to me.

    I am positive, based on the video that she would have cited him for the smoking if she actually witnessed it.
    Last edited by notalawyer; 12-27-2013 at 09:05 PM.

  13. #13
    Regular Member Freedom1Man's Avatar
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    Thank you for the link
    Provision for free medical attendance and nursing, for clothing, for food, for housing, for the education of children, and a hundred other matters, might with equal propriety be proposed as tending to relieve the employee of mental strain and worry. --- These matters obviously lie outside the orbit of congressional power. (Railroad Retirement Board v Alton Railroad)

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    Regular Member Fuller Malarkey's Avatar
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    I think that one officer writing the ticket is a cancer survivor and that may have affected her attitude.


    I mean, why else would someone get a double mastectomy?
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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Let's not judge the guys "handling" of the situation. Most people are new to handling cops and their busy body unconstitutional intrusions.

    I say good on him and good on anyone who takes a stand!

    Yes he shouldn't have handed over his ID, but I shouldn't have first time I was stopped either, I learned my lesson.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

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    Regular Member stealthyeliminator's Avatar
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    I am thankful that per Texas state law you generally are not required to identify yourself unless arrested. It's illegal to lie about your identity, but you aren't required to give it unless arrested.

    Some cities have stop and identify type ordinances... I'm not sure if they'd hold up to appeal, though. I would like to know.
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    Quote Originally Posted by stealthyeliminator View Post
    I am thankful that per Texas state law you generally are not required to identify yourself unless arrested. It's illegal to lie about your identity, but you aren't required to give it unless arrested.

    Some cities have stop and identify type ordinances... I'm not sure if they'd hold up to appeal, though. I would like to know.
    Utah law does NOT require one hand over ANY ID unless one is engaged in specific LICENSED activity such as OPERATING A MOTOR VEHICLE.-- Only requires one to IDENTIFY SELF verbally when one is BEING investigated for a crime.

    Just for happiness.... One can LEGALLY carry a concealed firearm without ID or a PERMIT on your person. Utah law only requires that a Concealment Permit has been ISSUED!
    RIGHTS don't exist without RESPONSIBILITY!
    If one is not willing to stand for his rights, he doesn't have any Rights.
    I will strive to stand for the rights of ANY person, even those folks with whom I disagree!
    As said by SVG--- "I am not anti-COP, I am PRO-Citizen" and I'll add, PRO-Constitution.
    If the above makes me a RADICAL or EXTREME--- So be it!

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    Quote Originally Posted by sudden valley gunner View Post
    Let's not judge the guys "handling" of the situation. Most people are new to handling cops and their busy body unconstitutional intrusions.

    I say good on him and good on anyone who takes a stand!

    Yes he shouldn't have handed over his ID, but I shouldn't have first time I was stopped either, I learned my lesson.
    One of the ways folks get good at LEO encounters is by discussing the ones we get to watch.

    So, judge away folks! It is good for you.

  19. #19
    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    One of the ways folks get good at LEO encounters is by discussing the ones we get to watch.

    So, judge away folks! It is good for you.
    Good point.

    I would still commend him over condemning him, he did what way too many people don't, decide to take a stand.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

  20. #20
    Regular Member Maverick9's Avatar
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    I think there was more to it. He may have been 'smoking' (but not, perhaps tobacco), else why would he not just say in the beginning "I don't smoke...I was not smoking"? We don't know his history with the Transit Authority.

    I can't really fault the LEO, though she probably knew the charges wouldn't stick. Most know I don't like pushy cops, but this video doesn't tell the whole story and the poster was being more difficult than necessary.

    Edit to add: If he's going to be passive aggressive or confrontational he should know the ler beforehand. Offer his name and address and not cave to the demand for ID. Explain why he's there. He was just half fast.
    Last edited by Maverick9; 12-28-2013 at 08:35 AM.

  21. #21
    Regular Member BrianB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Augustin View Post
    The moral of the story is to know what your state's "Stop and Identify" law actually says. In some states such as Rhode Island it is required to produce ID on demand no exceptions.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stop_a...ntify_statutes
    Rhode Island's statute appears to require RAS and a valid detention before you can be required to identify yourself. Also it doesn't require you to "provide ID" it allows the officer to "demand of the person his or her name, address, business abroad, and destination". Unless there is case law to the contrary, verbal answers to those questions would be sufficient - you don't have to hand over your ID card. I'd also note that I would likely assert my 5th amendment rights and refuse to answer the "business abroad, and destination" part.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BrianB View Post
    Rhode Island's statute appears to require RAS and a valid detention before you can be required to identify yourself. Also it doesn't require you to "provide ID" it allows the officer to "demand of the person his or her name, address, business abroad, and destination". Unless there is case law to the contrary, verbal answers to those questions would be sufficient - you don't have to hand over your ID card. I'd also note that I would likely assert my 5th amendment rights and refuse to answer the "business abroad, and destination" part.
    I suspect the courts would absolutely back you up on that refusal.


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  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Augustin View Post
    Yeah, I boiled over.

    The BIG PROBLEM, as I see it, is the cop demanding ID. Although she actually doesn't demand ID but instead she keeps repeating the phrase, "I need to see some ID."

    Utah is one of approx. 25 states with some form of "Stop and Identify" statute that allow police to detain people who are suspected of committing a crime and request such persons to identify themselves, and in some cases arrest them if they refuse.

    The Utah code reads,

    "77-7-15. Authority of peace officer to stop and question suspect -- Grounds.

    A peace officer may stop any person in a public place when he has a reasonable suspicion to believe he has committed or is in the act of committing or is attempting to commit a public offense and may demand his name, address and an explanation of his actions."

    NOWHERE IN THE LAW DOES IT STATE THAT THE SUSPECT IS REQUIRED TO PROVIDE HIS/HER ID, just that they have to give the cop their name IF there is RAS. That is why the cop keeps saying "I need to see your ID." The man should have replied something like, "Well, that's too bad because under 77-7-15 I'm not required to provide identification" and steadfastly refused to hand his papers over. He would have been much less likely to have been cited if he didn't give the sad excuse for a LEO his ID card.

    The moral of the story is to know what your state's "Stop and Identify" law actually says. In some states such as Rhode Island it is required to produce ID on demand no exceptions.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stop_a...ntify_statutes
    Well, cops are lazy. The don't want to have to listen, understand, and then write the information down, they would much rather just read it off a DL.

    I know of no state in the US where an individual is required by law to carry any form of ID (unless engaged in a licensed activity that requires one to possess the license/ID)

    Oh and that Wiki page is wrong. There is no Stop & ID law in Florida (as most people want to interpret it.)

    If a LEO has RAS to believe you have just, are currently, or immediately commit a crime, (i.e. detained) he can request you to ID yourself.

  24. #24
    Regular Member Primus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by notalawyer View Post
    Well, cops are lazy. The don't want to have to listen, understand, and then write the information down, they would much rather just read it off a DL.

    I know of no state in the US where an individual is required by law to carry any form of ID (unless engaged in a licensed activity that requires one to possess the license/ID)

    Oh and that Wiki page is wrong. There is no Stop & ID law in Florida (as most people want to interpret it.)

    If a LEO has RAS to believe you have just, are currently, or immediately commit a crime, (i.e. detained) he can request you to ID yourself.
    Or maybe.... just maybe.... hear me out now..... they want a photo to match up the name your giving? Insane huh. Since you can verbally give any name and dob u want. Like Chris kringle 010131.

    Not all States have an access to photos in their cruisers even if they have a computer. So sure use your brothers name and dob because he has active license and no warrants while you don't have a license and have 6 warrants.

    But maybe your right. Just laziness who cares about the warrants or active license stuff.

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    The gentleman clearly should not have given his ID... He should have requested counsel and kept his mouth shut..

    For the kind tax paying folks in UT. How do you feel about your hard earned tax dollars at work in this situation? Three LEO on the scene, also a dispatcher wasting valuable time...etc. Wasted time and tax payer dollars... Lady leo was on a power trip and the two *****, well, what could they do, they had to have her back...

    My .02

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    Last edited by Grapeshot; 12-28-2013 at 03:11 PM. Reason: Rules 6
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