"THE BARBERS" barber shop is a gun free zone

“THE BARBERS” is a barber shop that I frequent with locations in Washington and Oregon. They do not display any firearms signage on any of the locations I have visited.

On December 22, 2013 I posted the following question on their website (thebarbersonline.com): “What is your corporate policy concerning private citizens (customers) openly carrying a holstered pistol on your premises? Is the policy different for citizens in Washington vs. Oregon?”

The same date, I received the following reply: “It's the same in all Barbers locations, we are a gun free establishment. Thank you for inquiring.
Don and Alison Lovell
Owners"

:banghead:
Why would you do that? If the locations are not posted then their policy is to allow legally-armed patrons. Now you are under notice that they are a gun-free establishment and cannot enter if armed.

The "Don't call and ask" rule needs to be amended to "don't ask period" I think. :banghead:

JustaShooter said:

:banghead:
Why would you do that? If the locations are not posted then their policy is to allow legally-armed patrons. Now you are under notice that they are a gun-free establishment and cannot enter if armed.

The "Don't call and ask" rule needs to be amended to "don't ask period" I think. :banghead:

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So in your opinion: IF I had been asked to leave, THEN contacted corporate with the SAME response, THAT would have been OK vs. my approach? I disagree.

That I should consider myself trespassed (for carry purposes) ... I disagree also. There exists no connection with the question and the person for any actionable LE response.

The act of emailing or calling and asking (before the carry) implies that you want to do something unusual. We are fighting against the notion that carry is unusual - that it is an aberration that one needs to seek permission for.

Don't call, don't ask. Carry, leave if asked. It's really quite simple.

CitizenJohn said:

So in your opinion: IF I had been asked to leave, THEN contacted corporate with the SAME response, THAT would have been OK vs. my approach?

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Absolutely, that would be the better approach.

CitizenJohn said:

That I should consider myself trespassed (for carry purposes) ... I disagree also. There exists no connection with the question and the person for any actionable LE response.

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Perhaps not, but you have been notified that the premises are a gun-free establishment. To then carry onto those premises would be a violation of the law, regardless of whether it could be actionable. Certainly it would be unethical and immoral.

It is better to ask forgiveness than to beg permission.


Also...

A similar issue exists for people with service animals. Folks who are new to working with service animals either training them or receiving benefit from them tend to walk into a business establishment and proceed to let management know that they are disabled and their dog or whatever animal is a service animal. The problem with this is that it is not required by the American with Disabilities Act and sets a bad precedent in the mind of the shop owner/manager/employee that people with service animals will identify themselves so much so that when someone who enters a store with a service animal and they don't identify themselves they tend to get harassed that they need to when in fact they do not under the law.

In the case of open carry, there is no need for anyone to identify or seek permission in advance...it sets a bad precedent for exclusion, and one should expect that they can go about their law abiding life unencumbered until they are told otherwise by the owner of an establishment or that person's agent(s).


On another note...the ADA protects the access of people with disabilities to areas where the public are generally accepted...this means that a privately owned business or other establishment that allows access to the general public must allow access to disabled persons with service animals......I never understood why when it come to firearms and the 2nd amendment that areas that the public are generally accepted revert back to "private property" per se for the purpose of excluding law abiding citizens from accessing the establishment. I understand that folks with disabilities are a protected class and firearms carriers are not but the legal definition of a "public place" should not necessarily change based on the specific cross section of the population being debated/discussed.

Or should it?...and if it should can that please be explained.

-Z

JustaShooter said:

To then carry onto those premises would be a violation of the law, regardless of whether it could be actionable. Certainly it would be unethical and immoral.

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Still no law in WA would be broken, you are just going against their policy. If they notice you carrying they can ask you to leave, if you don't they can call the police to have you trespassed. Again no gun law is broken. Same as Starsucks current policy. If a business has a GF rule, then I will just do business elsewhere. The Korean ladies that cut my hair were a little surprised the first time I came in, but now it's just business as usual. Most of us could not conduct our basic routines of life if we contacted every business prior to leaving the house for their "policy".
Honey, did you get the cat food? No, Petsmart hasn't got back to me.
Honey, did you get gas? No, Arco hasn't got back to me yet either.
I know, a little extreme, but I'm trying to make a point.
Just go about doing what you normally do, and IF you run across a GF business, let them know that you will spend your money where you are appreciated.

JustaShooter said:

Absolutely, that would be the better approach.

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I obviously prefer my approach.

JustaShooter said:

Perhaps not, but you have been notified that the premises are a gun-free establishment. To then carry onto those premises would be a violation of the law, regardless of whether it could be actionable.

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Cite? (for Washington). I have the one for Oregon.

JustaShooter said:

Certainly it would be unethical and immoral.

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Since “unethical” and “immoral” are synonyms, I’ll condense my response: Based on your moral judgment then, would you consider a person that has read this thread to be immoral if they then carried at The Barbers? How about Starbucks? The CEO went on national TV and declared that while he was not “prohibiting” firearms, he definitely would “prefer” folks did not bring firearms onto the premises. I contend that national TV is no more a legal notification vessel than email is. I will continue to CC at The Barbers (in Washington) until and if I am told, in person, not to and I don’t have a moral issue with it, nor do I think there is one … IMHO.

CitizenJohn said:

JustaShooter said:

Absolutely, that would be the better approach.

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I obviously prefer my approach.

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On this forum you are in the minority. Your approach leads to de-normalization and causes some businesses to post thereby preventing others from enjoying their services while armed.

CitizenJohn said:

JustaShooter said:

Perhaps not, but you have been notified that the premises are a gun-free establishment. To then carry onto those premises would be a violation of the law, regardless of whether it could be actionable.

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Cite? (for Washington). I have the one for Oregon.

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My fault, I got confused which state forum I was replying in.

CitizenJohn said:

JustaShooter said:

Certainly it would be unethical and immoral.

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Since “unethical” and “immoral” are synonyms, I’ll condense my response: Based on your moral judgment then, would you consider a person that has read this thread to be immoral if they then carried at The Barbers? How about Starbucks? The CEO went on national TV and declared that while he was not “prohibiting” firearms, he definitely would “prefer” folks did not bring firearms onto the premises. I contend that national TV is no more a legal notification vessel than email is.

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I disagree that ethics and morals are synonyms. Ethics and morals both relate to “right” and “wrong” conduct, however, ethics refer to a series of rules provided to an individual by an external source. e.g. their profession. On the other hand, morals refer to an individual’s own principles regarding right and wrong. Though I'll agree that most treat them as synonymous. But onward...

In the case of The Barbers, I would not - nobody other than you has seen this notification. You could be mistaken or misrepresenting it or could have created it from whole cloth in an attepmt to discredit the business - in any case, it is hearsay to anyone other than you. Were I to visit The Barbers if they were not posted as no firearms I would not hesitate to enter while armed. Starbucks is a different case - if you have seen the actual internet posting on their website, Facebook page, or if you have seen it on the TV then in my opinion you have been notified and as such I believe have an obligation to respect their wishes.

CitizenJohn said:

I will continue to CC at The Barbers (in Washington) until and if I am told, in person, not to and I don’t have a moral issue with it, nor do I think there is one … IMHO.

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Certainly your choice - though I would disagree that there is no moral issue with that approach.

My approach is to not willingly spend my money at businesses that do not respect my right to self defense. I also am sure to let them know they are losing my business and why, and spread the word among like-minded individuals and ask that they also let the business know they have lost money because of their stance.

There are times that an individual has asked "permission" to carry and were told in no uncertain terms NO only to have the decision reversed at a later date. There also have been times, that the inquiry was made that caused the company to implement a NO GUNS POLICY. This has happened many times at places that were open to OC because nobody brought it to their attention.

Like the Carnival barker says "Youze pays yer money, youze takes yer chance.
DO NOT ASK....DO NOT TELL

CJ, why would you continue to do business with a business that opposes our beliefs? Yes, you can CC there, big deal you can CC just about anywhere. Out of sight, out of mind. If I was not allowed for doing business in a store for another reason, the ACULA would be all over it. I'm proud of my military service, and my 1911, you don't like it? Then no problem I will go elsewhere. In over four years I've had only one issue, and that was resolved quickly. I may not like it, but if any business says no guns, then I will respect it and not go in CC or OC. To go in CC especially when you know their policy I think is rude, and lets them know there no gun rule is OK. Apology for the rant, when I get upset it affects my grammar/readability. Threads of contacting a business prior to going there is one that sets me off.

golddigger14s said:

Still no law in WA would be broken, you are just going against their policy.

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Actually, having been given notice by the owner that people carrying guns are not welcome, that would mean that entering with a gun would be trespassing.

JustaShooter said:

:banghead:
Why would you do that?

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deanf said:

Don't call, don't ask. Carry, leave if asked. It's really quite simple.

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This kind of thing comes up now and then. I is almost always a bad decision. Doing things like this make life more difficult for us all. This shop may now put up a visible sign. That will change hearts and minds of all who enter there and that gets bloody contagious.
Wear the weapon, go about your business, be normal. If someone is unhappy with you, they will tell you, if not carry on with a smile on your face and a song in your heart.

imagine you're a business owner.

one day a guy wearing a holstered gun comes in, he looks at some products, smiles at your employees pays in cash and leaves. ideal transaction. you're probably not going to care much.

if some guy you don't know calls the store and goes "hey I'm coming over with my gun" what do you think now? it sends up red flags.

I don't call places in advance, I go to the business OC, I briefly inspect the door for signs, if there's no signs, I go in and conduct my business. if asked to leave I do that, if not then I shop and patronize.

the only behavior change I've made is, when OCing, I make it a rule to buy something when i go in to a retail business. i like to shop, compare brands and prices, I used to work in retail so I have kinda in interest in how they merchandize products, so I sometimes go into stores just to look. even then if I'm OCing I'll buy a candy bar or a soda just to show I'm a paying customer...

other then that I carry on as normal. you don't call a business in advance and ask for permission to wear khakis or blue jeans, so why call and ask about legally carrying?

Difdi said:

Actually, having been given notice by the owner that people carrying guns are not welcome, that would mean that entering with a gun would be trespassing.

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for the OP it would certainly mean that. as far as other people, I'm not sure.

it really depends on the DA. I personally treat "no gun signs" as "notice" for the purposes of trespass and avoid signed businesses. best not be a test case.

This may be giving away my age but " Carry on my wayward son " if its posted don't patronize if not business as usual.

1911er said:

This may be giving away my age but " Carry on my wayward son " if its posted don't patronize if not business as usual.

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love that song lol...

I get my haircut at a portland location and I open carry without any issue. I've been going to the same one for almost 7 years now.

I called the barbers today to see if I could wear my red tennis shoes in their business. I was told a resounding "NO!" Geez.....

Why would you ever call anywhere and ask to do something that is LEGAL? It makes no sense. Legal activities are presumed normal, go about your business until you are discriminated against, then deal with the bigotry at that time.

When you ask in advance the answer will always be NO.

No is the easy answer for them. No thought involved and they do not see any consequences.

Don't give them the opportunity to say no with no consequences. If they tell you to leave once you are there, now there are consequences. They lose a paying customer.