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What would you do?

countryclubjoe

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Mar 3, 2013
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nj
Stealthy - not just in your state. The local TV news stations in St. Louis, MO were all harping on that fact with interviews with the St. Louis Chief. He was touting on how this would "make driving safer" by getting more drunk drivers off the road. Needless to say, they all ignored how this violates the Fourth Amendment.

Amendment IV
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

Hi JTH

I concur-- I would also argue that a citizens 5th A right is violated. Also DUI cases generally do not afford a citizen the right to a trial by jury.
Therefore I believe a clear violation of a citizens 7thA... If a citizen is convicted of a DUI the financial ramifications far exceed the $20.00 requirement needed to be tried by a jury, however, I have never seen a jury seating in on a DUI case... So where is the citizens right to be tried by a jury of his/her peers and not just some kangaroo court judge, a judge that is employed by the same entity as the police officer and prosecutor.. So I contend that these nazi roadblocks violate, the 4th 5th and 7th Amendments....

My .02

Thank you and best regards.

CCJ
 

Primus

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Hi JTH

I concur-- I would also argue that a citizens 5th A right is violated. Also DUI cases generally do not afford a citizen the right to a trial by jury.
Therefore I believe a clear violation of a citizens 7thA... If a citizen is convicted of a DUI the financial ramifications far exceed the $20.00 requirement needed to be tried by a jury, however, I have never seen a jury seating in on a DUI case... So where is the citizens right to be tried by a jury of his/her peers and not just some kangaroo court judge, a judge that is employed by the same entity as the police officer and prosecutor.. So I contend that these nazi roadblocks violate, the 4th 5th and 7th Amendments....

My .02

Thank you and best regards.

CCJ

Ccj,

Not sure if your talking state specific or not but we routinely have to testify in front of a jury for DUI. Just had one a few weeks ago.

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countryclubjoe

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nj
Ccj,

Not sure if your talking state specific or not but we routinely have to testify in front of a jury for DUI. Just had one a few weeks ago.

Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk

Hi primus

No jury trial in NJ for a DUI, hence my opinion that the whole dui process is unconstitutional...

A citizen suspected of a DUI is required to furnish evidence against him/her self, IE, blood, urine, breath
A refusal to furnish evidence by the citizens results in far more sever penalties then simply complying.... UNCONSTITUTIONAL..?

Police are not required to Mirandize a citizen until after he/she is charged, hence citizen is interrogated on the side of the road and not afforded legal counsel... UNCONSTITUTIONAL ?

I contend that a person suspected of murder is afforded more legal rights then a person suspected of DUI...

Thank you and best regards.

CCJ
 

CT Barfly

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Jun 13, 2013
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328
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Ffld co.
all the "no refusal" stuff is is having nurses/judges available on the spot/phone to shuttle you through the warrant process quickly and immediately. once they have a warrant, based on probable cause, your blood can be used against you.

if you're sober and refuse...chances are you will be let go. because there has to be probable cause ASIDE from your mere refusal. the officer has to smell or see something.

if you've been drinking or swerving, if the officer says he smells booze, and you refuse, he'll just tell the judge the same thing...the judge will rubber stamp the warrant...the blood will get drawn (or you'll have quite a fight on your hands and bigger problems).

normally, judges are asleep and nurses are far away...so the officer will have to make an on-the-spot determination on whether to arrest (same probable cause requirement as a warrant)...no warrant will be obtained (because of the late hour...at that point if you continue to refuse...you'll just get sent home with the charge (the next morning) and you can then challenge the DWI and the state won't have the crucial scientific evidence it needs. lots of cases get dismissed/dropped/plea bargained this way. they'll still suspend your DL.

this program ensures the state has the crucial evidence it needs and is designed to strengthen suspected DUI cases...not make new ones out of sober people.
 
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stealthyeliminator

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Dec 29, 2008
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Texas
all the "no refusal" stuff is is having nurses/judges available on the spot/phone to shuttle you through the warrant process quickly and immediately. once they have a warrant, based on probable cause, your blood can be used against you.

if you're sober and refuse...chances are you will be let go. because there has to be probable cause ASIDE from your mere refusal. the officer has to smell or see something.

if you've been drinking or swerving, if the officer says he smells booze, and you refuse, he'll just tell the judge the same thing...the judge will rubber stamp the warrant...the blood will get drawn (or you'll have quite a fight on your hands and bigger problems).

normally, judges are asleep and nurses are far away...so the officer will have to make an on-the-spot determination on whether to arrest (same probable cause requirement as a warrant)...no warrant will be obtained (because of the late hour...at that point if you continue to refuse...you'll just get sent home with the charge (the next morning) and you can then challenge the DWI and the state won't have the crucial scientific evidence it needs. lots of cases get dismissed/dropped/plea bargained this way. they'll still suspend your DL.

this program ensures the state has the crucial evidence it needs and is designed to strengthen suspected DUI cases...not make new ones out of sober people.

That's what one would expect, but that is not the tone used in the article I quoted. The article essentially had a tone of, if you give us any grief at our roadblock then we're going to stick you with a needle, so you better just do what we say. It didn't say we hate drunk drivers, it said (not literally) we hate people that don't consent to our tests and answer our questions.

The article most definitely gave off a vibe that you will be punished for not 'cooperating' at a checkpoint. It's not simply a matter of not cooperating when you're legitimately suspected of DUI. You can see time and again in videos on youtube people who are clearly not drunk being harassed, even beaten and ultimately arrested for refusing to 'cooperate' at roadblocks.

Also, I don't mean to make this into another general discussion about roadblocks, but IMO any liberty centric person would agree that roadblocks are wrong and that you shouldn't be stopped in the first place unless legitimately suspected of a crime.
 
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countryclubjoe

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Messages
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nj
all the "no refusal" stuff is is having nurses/judges available on the spot/phone to shuttle you through the warrant process quickly and immediately. once they have a warrant, based on probable cause, your blood can be used against you.

if you're sober and refuse...chances are you will be let go. because there has to be probable cause ASIDE from your mere refusal. the officer has to smell or see something.

if you've been drinking or swerving, if the officer says he smells booze, and you refuse, he'll just tell the judge the same thing...the judge will rubber stamp the warrant...the blood will get drawn (or you'll have quite a fight on your hands and bigger problems).

normally, judges are asleep and nurses are far away...so the officer will have to make an on-the-spot determination on whether to arrest (same probable cause requirement as a warrant)...no warrant will be obtained (because of the late hour...at that point if you continue to refuse...you'll just get sent home with the charge (the next morning) and you can then challenge the DWI and the state won't have the crucial scientific evidence it needs. lots of cases get dismissed/dropped/plea bargained this way. they'll still suspend your DL.

this program ensures the state has the crucial evidence it needs and is designed to strengthen suspected DUI cases...not make new ones out of sober people.

Hi CT Barfly

What the state is doing is depriving citizens of their 4th and 5th Amendment rights.. They are stealing a citizens blood from his/her body against his/her will... That is called theft of property in my humble opinion.. Not to mention a trained medical person ( Nurse ) is actually sticking a needle in a citizens body against his/her will.. This is called assault in my humble opinion.. Any nurse that would stick a needle in a persons body without the persons consent, should not only lose his/her license to practice medicine but should be arrested...

Where will these violations and intrusions upon the citizens end? Today its the 4th,5th, 7th, 14th Amendments next month it could be the 2nd..






All reasonable like minded citizens want drunk drivers off the roads however giving up liberties for a little safety and security is not the answer..

My .02

Thank you and best regards.

CCJ
 

CT Barfly

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Ffld co.
I agree that it is intrusive and probably unlikely to achieve the intended goal of eradicating drunk driving.

From the municipality's standpoint, I can imagine that the state's attorney is cautioning police that they'd better be damn sure someone is over the limit due to the civil liability that is likely if they get it wrong and wrestle a sober grandma to the ground for her blood.

Police/prosecutors view the Constitution as a nuisance and impediment to the discharge of their duties...this policy (checkpoint+judge+nurse) is just a lazy/expensive way to reduce the number of dismissals/acquittals that result from bloodless collars. The reports I saw from cursory googling say they're seeing 0.19s and far fewer dismissals as a result of these setups...so I don't think they are using this to mete out punishment for mere refusals...only refusal+suspicion of DUI.

I think a far better strategy would be to place undercover officers in bars to monitor patrons then direct a bust once they attempt to drive off.

Even better, place a uniformed officer at the door of the bar to allow drivers to voluntarily and anonymously check their BAC before getting behind the wheel...they then have the option of sobering up before driving off or risking it after having given an officer a key piece of info for pc.
 
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Maverick9

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Mid-atlantic
If this is federally funded then it is not about safety, it is about normalizing road blocks to the public. DUI arrest should be made on solid police work, not lazy Nazi tactics such as this. If a officer knows what they are doing they can make several DUI arrests a night without invading rights, and acting like goons.

Really. Just sit across the street from the neighborhood bar.
 

countryclubjoe

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Mar 3, 2013
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nj
I agree that it is intrusive and probably unlikely to achieve the intended goal of eradicating drunk driving.

From the municipality's standpoint, I can imagine that the state's attorney is cautioning police that they'd better be damn sure someone is over the limit due to the civil liability that is likely if they get it wrong and wrestle a sober grandma to the ground for her blood.

Police/prosecutors view the Constitution as a nuisance and impediment to the discharge of their duties...this policy (checkpoint+judge+nurse) is just a lazy/expensive way to reduce the number of dismissals/acquittals that result from bloodless collars. The reports I saw from cursory googling say they're seeing 0.19s and far fewer dismissals as a result of these setups...so I don't think they are using this to mete out punishment for mere refusals...only refusal+suspicion of DUI.

I think a far better strategy would be to place undercover officers in bars to monitor patrons then direct a bust once they attempt to drive off.

Even better, place a uniformed officer at the door of the bar to allow drivers to voluntarily and anonymously check their BAC before getting behind the wheel...they then have the option of sobering up before driving off or risking it after having given an officer a key piece of info for pc.[/QUOTE

Your last two suggestions would not go over so well with bar owners...

My .02

CCJ
 

CT Barfly

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 13, 2013
Messages
328
Location
Ffld co.
I agree that it is intrusive and probably unlikely to achieve the intended goal of eradicating drunk driving.

From the municipality's standpoint, I can imagine that the state's attorney is cautioning police that they'd better be damn sure someone is over the limit due to the civil liability that is likely if they get it wrong and wrestle a sober grandma to the ground for her blood.

Police/prosecutors view the Constitution as a nuisance and impediment to the discharge of their duties...this policy (checkpoint+judge+nurse) is just a lazy/expensive way to reduce the number of dismissals/acquittals that result from bloodless collars. The reports I saw from cursory googling say they're seeing 0.19s and far fewer dismissals as a result of these setups...so I don't think they are using this to mete out punishment for mere refusals...only refusal+suspicion of DUI.

I think a far better strategy would be to place undercover officers in bars to monitor patrons then direct a bust once they attempt to drive off.

Even better, place a uniformed officer at the door of the bar to allow drivers to voluntarily and anonymously check their BAC before getting behind the wheel...they then have the option of sobering up before driving off or risking it after having given an officer a key piece of info for pc.[/QUOTE

Your last two suggestions would not go over so well with bar owners...

My .02

CCJ

My heart bleeds for local pd/prosecutors.

[video=youtube;lqqq-sU2SQo]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lqqq-sU2SQo[/video]
 
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OC for ME

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Jan 6, 2010
Messages
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White Oak Plantation
all the "no refusal" stuff is is having nurses/judges available on the spot/phone to shuttle you through the warrant process quickly and immediately. once they have a warrant, based on probable cause, your blood can be used against you.

if you're sober and refuse...chances are you will be let go. because there has to be probable cause ASIDE from your mere refusal. the officer has to smell or see something.

if you've been drinking or swerving, if the officer says he smells booze, and you refuse, he'll just tell the judge the same thing...the judge will rubber stamp the warrant...the blood will get drawn (or you'll have quite a fight on your hands and bigger problems).

normally, judges are asleep and nurses are far away...so the officer will have to make an on-the-spot determination on whether to arrest (same probable cause requirement as a warrant)...no warrant will be obtained (because of the late hour...at that point if you continue to refuse...you'll just get sent home with the charge (the next morning) and you can then challenge the DWI and the state won't have the crucial scientific evidence it needs. lots of cases get dismissed/dropped/plea bargained this way. they'll still suspend your DL.

this program ensures the state has the crucial evidence it needs and is designed to strengthen suspected DUI cases...not make new ones out of sober people.
O'Doul's

The roadblock is the issue.

What happens at the roadblock is not the issue, just icing on the law suit cake. Skipping the initial constitutional violation is not how we should be addressing the roadblock issue.

Refuse the encounter in a polite and firm way. When the cop goes thug on you make sure your hidden back-up recorder catches your refusal and the cop going thug on you. Then sue the cop and everybody else within a 12 mile radius of conspiracy.

O'Doul's

A state court will not, I hope, let stand, a refusal to incriminate yourself. When your DL is suspended sue the DMV and the cops again. Throw in the DA/PA and the judge. They, the judge in particular, in fact started the entire chain of events.
 

Primus

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O'Doul's

The roadblock is the issue.

What happens at the roadblock is not the issue, just icing on the law suit cake. Skipping the initial constitutional violation is not how we should be addressing the roadblock issue.

Refuse the encounter in a polite and firm way. When the cop goes thug on you make sure your hidden back-up recorder catches your refusal and the cop going thug on you. Then sue the cop and everybody else within a 12 mile radius of conspiracy.

O'Doul's

A state court will not, I hope, let stand, a refusal to incriminate yourself. When your DL is suspended sue the DMV and the cops again. Throw in the DA/PA and the judge. They, the judge in particular, in fact started the entire chain of events.

Oc 2 very serious questions

1. Do you think no one else has tried to sue or fight the checkpoint idea? I don't know for certain hence me asking you.

2. If its this easy why haven't you or someone else you know done it? Seems pretty simple and easy in your post so I'm assuming someone could do it and save the whole country from checkpoints and get paid to do so. There's a lot of money to be made from everyone in a 12 mile radius.

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HPmatt

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Dallas
If this is federally funded then it is not about safety, it is about normalizing road blocks to the public. DUI arrest should be made on solid police work, not lazy Nazi tactics such as this. If a officer knows what they are doing they can make several DUI arrests a night without invading rights, and acting like goons.

I listened to the KERA dallas reporter radio report - the local Dallas NPR station - the $300,000 grant is from the great State of Texas. I'll inquire further to see if this is a Federal Block Grant being handed out. Will also contact the reporter Bill Zeeble and ask if he actually showed up to see how these stops were conducted or was he just reporting on this in his pajamas. I will also contact the Tarrant County Asst D/A and hear what he's got to say about his quotes and the 4A regarding no PC or RAS.


Here's the link to the Tarrant County (Ft Worth) DA office on the 'No Refusal'. Looks like you have to be charged with DUI and refuse breathe test.

http://www.tarrantda.com/wp-content/uploads/Christmas-No-Refusal-Begins-Tuesday-Night.pdf
 
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OC for ME

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Oc 2 very serious questions

1. Do you think no one else has tried to sue or fight the checkpoint idea? I don't know for certain hence me asking you.

2. If its this easy why haven't you or someone else you know done it? Seems pretty simple and easy in your post so I'm assuming someone could do it and save the whole country from checkpoints and get paid to do so. There's a lot of money to be made from everyone in a 12 mile radius.

Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk
OK. I never said it was easy. In fact, Terry makes fighting a roadblock very difficult. You of all people should recognize the unconstitutionality of a roadblock stopping anyone. Just cuz it is a random choice of which citizen is detained does not make the roadblock detention constitutional. There is no opt out provision in any of these roadblocks. You support the roadblocks because you believe in proactive policing to find a crime where no crime is suspected. No big deal. I disagree. I want cops to catch BGs the old fashioned way, after a crime is reported. If a cop can interdict a crime in progress.....BONUS!!! But you and I both know that is the rare case in deed.

Roadblocks are a affront to liberty and clearly unconstitutional. A detention is not a detention if the "detained" is not detained for too long, what is it up to now 20, 30, even 40 minutes now? Depending on the circumstances and what the cop has or has not, the inconvenience factor is based on a cop and a judges definition of what is reasonable, not the wronged citizen's definition of what is reasonable.

A cop who claims to support liberty and the constitution should be fighting tooth and nail to have roadblocks terminated. Or, at a minimum, volunteer for some other duty so as to have a modicum of "plausible deniability." "Hey, I ain't doing it, don't rag on me!!"
 

sudden valley gunner

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Whatcom County
OK. I never said it was easy. In fact, Terry makes fighting a roadblock very difficult. You of all people should recognize the unconstitutionality of a roadblock stopping anyone. Just cuz it is a random choice of which citizen is detained does not make the roadblock detention constitutional. There is no opt out provision in any of these roadblocks. You support the roadblocks because you believe in proactive policing to find a crime where no crime is suspected. No big deal. I disagree. I want cops to catch BGs the old fashioned way, after a crime is reported. If a cop can interdict a crime in progress.....BONUS!!! But you and I both know that is the rare case in deed.

Roadblocks are a affront to liberty and clearly unconstitutional. A detention is not a detention if the "detained" is not detained for too long, what is it up to now 20, 30, even 40 minutes now? Depending on the circumstances and what the cop has or has not, the inconvenience factor is based on a cop and a judges definition of what is reasonable, not the wronged citizen's definition of what is reasonable.

A cop who claims to support liberty and the constitution should be fighting tooth and nail to have roadblocks terminated. Or, at a minimum, volunteer for some other duty so as to have a modicum of "plausible deniability." "Hey, I ain't doing it, don't rag on me!!"

+1 Why do the these "oath takers" don't understand the oath?

Why do they always cry, out about how judges said they can do it.

I wonder if the cops arresting Rosa Parks, said "ma'am you shouldn't fight this no one has won any cases against it"
 

stealthyeliminator

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I listened to the KERA dallas reporter radio report - the local Dallas NPR station - the $300,000 grant is from the great State of Texas. I'll inquire further to see if this is a Federal Block Grant being handed out. Will also contact the reporter Bill Zeeble and ask if he actually showed up to see how these stops were conducted or was he just reporting on this in his pajamas. I will also contact the Tarrant County Asst D/A and hear what he's got to say about his quotes and the 4A regarding no PC or RAS.


Here's the link to the Tarrant County (Ft Worth) DA office on the 'No Refusal'. Looks like you have to be charged with DUI and refuse breathe test.

http://www.tarrantda.com/wp-content/uploads/Christmas-No-Refusal-Begins-Tuesday-Night.pdf

So the article I read played it up a bit?

Well, that's no good

Still don't like roadblocks :mad:
 

countryclubjoe

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nj
So if a citizen is suspected of DUI and refuses to take the breath test, then he will be arrested and his blood will be forcefully removed from his body?
Is this America? Depriving a citizen counsel, stealing a citizens blood from his person, assaulting a citizen with a needle, detaining and kidnapping citizen.. Again is this America? Do motorist SUSPECTED of a dui simply have NO RIGHTS under our judicial system? What are they calling this new vile unconstitutional action, The Anti Drunk Act? Again this is America correct?

In my humble opinion there are clearly four amendments violated by this act of tyranny. The 4th,5th,7th and 14th... I call this unconstitutional act the grand slam of Amendment violations... Anyone that lives in that town and turns their eye away from this horrible invasion on individual's liberties without complaining to their legislators should be ashamed to call themselves Americans...Again this is AMERICA land of the free home of the brave.
Not in that horrible town...

My .02

Best regards

CCJ
 

scott58dh

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why?
I bet Refusing will leave a mark !

Does anyone remember the case a few years back with the guy in the Southwest that came across a Roadblock by the Border Patrol many miles from the Border ?

"I was NOT crossing a border! I was approximately 50 miles from Mexico traveling on a highway from west to east !"

He Refused to consent to any search and LEO Smashed his window, Tazed Him, dragged his Electrically Induced Convulsing Body outta the car & proceeded to further abuse his person & ***Constitutional Rights*** , :banghead: all the while LEO was "Claiming" that they's Dawg got a "Hit" on his car. :eek:

Carry Safe & Smart ! :cool:

Here is the rest of his story...
Pastor Steven Anderson Tazed by Border Patrol...
http://www.youtube.com/results?sear...and+Tazed+by+Border+Patrol+Police+State!&sm=3
 
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