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    pulled over by a policeman

    I live in Indiana and have a carry permit. I was pulled over for sliding into an intersection on the ice. The policeman [ very polite ] Ask me to be more careful. This must of been my verbal warning. No written warning but he did ask me for my drivers license and Insurance card. He checked me out and ask if I had my gun and permit with me and I said yes. He said just leave them where they are. He wished me a good day and I said thanks officer and we went on our way!!!!!!!!!!

    Moral of the story.----- do not carry any gun if you have had something [alchol ] to drink or on school property and know your state laws.
    If pulled over they will know if you have a carry permit.
    Thanks for reading

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    If he already knows, then why did he ask? Best off not answering any probative questions IMO.

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    I'd say the moral is to work to eliminate the need for a permission slip to carry. Then the officer could check all he wants.

    I don't care about OC or CC. I am working for UC!


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    Regular Member stealthyeliminator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by coyote223 View Post
    I live in Indiana and have a carry permit. I was pulled over for sliding into an intersection on the ice. The policeman [ very polite ] Ask me to be more careful. This must of been my verbal warning. No written warning but he did ask me for my drivers license and Insurance card. He checked me out and ask if I had my gun and permit with me and I said yes. He said just leave them where they are. He wished me a good day and I said thanks officer and we went on our way!!!!!!!!!!

    Moral of the story.----- do not carry any gun if you have had something [alchol ] to drink or on school property and know your state laws.
    If pulled over they will know if you have a carry permit.
    Thanks for reading
    Glad to hear it was an overall positive experience

    And I think that is sound advice, to not carry while intoxicated, even a little.
    Advocate freedom please

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    I think the moral of the story is to take better precautions and learn how to drive on ice.

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    The officer will ONLY know this info when he comes to the window, IF you have a permit AND you are driving a vehicle registered in your name, you are in the same state in which your permit and registration originated, and the officer took the time to look at the screen before leaving the comfort of the patrol car.

    Moral of the Story COULD be; if you have a permit don't drive a vehicle registered in your name or anyone with a permit!
    RIGHTS don't exist without RESPONSIBILITY!
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    Regular Member stealthyeliminator's Avatar
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    /\ Wouldn't help in my case - legally obligated to present CHL when asked for ID. I don't really care if LEOs know that I'm carrying... I mean, I support open carry, and would open carry if I could. If open carrying, I'd expect that the fact I'm carrying a handgun to be public knowledge. What I really don't like is them taking my gun back to their car to check it out, collect info from it and run the serial number.

    I don't know about Indiana, but here, where ice on roads is kind of a once a year thing, and usually only occurs on bridges... Oh my. I've seen trucks slide all the way through 4 way stops. Everyone jokes about how almost no one in this area knows how to drive, and I wonder if people in other areas think the same thing - that people in their area are probably the worst drivers there are. But, that's on normal days. When things get icy, the question is not whether or not people will be sliding around and off the roads, the question is just how many.
    Advocate freedom please

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    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    As long as you are driving the car registered to you and
    as long as you're not driving someone else's car and
    as long as someone isn't driving your car and
    as long as the car wasn't recently stolen (and being driven by someone else) and
    as long as the state links a firearms license with the vehicle registration and
    as long as you're driving in a state with a centralized reporting system or one that shares that same information

    then

    the system works great.


    I'm kinda happy that there isn't a centralized database in Georgia and it's impossible for a officer Anywhere to determine if I have/don't have a weapons license just from my plate or driving license.

    Officer safety-wise, I think it much more dangerous for an officer to get a "negative report on firearms license" for a driver he's stopped than for him not to be sure. Psychologically, if a report that a driver has a firearms license makes an officer more wary, what does the opposite do?
    Last edited by Fallschirmjäger; 01-05-2014 at 12:52 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by stealthyeliminator View Post
    /\ Wouldn't help in my case - legally obligated to present CHL when asked for ID. I don't really care if LEOs know that I'm carrying... I mean, I support open carry, and would open carry if I could. If open carrying, I'd expect that the fact I'm carrying a handgun to be public knowledge. What I really don't like is them taking my gun back to their car to check it out, collect info from it and run the serial number.

    I don't know about Indiana, but here, where ice on roads is kind of a once a year thing, and usually only occurs on bridges... Oh my. I've seen trucks slide all the way through 4 way stops. Everyone jokes about how almost no one in this area knows how to drive, and I wonder if people in other areas think the same thing - that people in their area are probably the worst drivers there are. But, that's on normal days. When things get icy, the question is not whether or not people will be sliding around and off the roads, the question is just how many.
    Yep, some State do require this. I tend to forget since in my home state and the ones that I regularly travel DON"T.
    RIGHTS don't exist without RESPONSIBILITY!
    If one is not willing to stand for his rights, he doesn't have any Rights.
    I will strive to stand for the rights of ANY person, even those folks with whom I disagree!
    As said by SVG--- "I am not anti-COP, I am PRO-Citizen" and I'll add, PRO-Constitution.
    If the above makes me a RADICAL or EXTREME--- So be it!

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    Regular Member Maverick9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    If he already knows, then why did he ask? Best off not answering any probative questions IMO.
    Yeah strictly speaking you're not required to 'answer questions about your permit', just present it when asked.

    You're not required to declare how many guns you have, if you have a gun. Nada. Indiana is not a must inform (but must present when asked).

    I think the best response would have been to hand or show the officer the permit and say nothing else. Why train them to do other than what's required?

    Glad it turned out OK.

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    Activist Member JamesCanby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    If he already knows, then why did he ask? Best off not answering any probative questions IMO.
    Inane response. All the officer knew was that the driver had been issued a license/permit. Knowing that, he had the right to ask to see it and he had the right to ask if the driver was carrying. The driver was responsive and the officer let it end there. IMO, the driver did the right thing.

    Obviously, This was an Indiana situation. According to the 2013 Traveler's Guide drivers have a duty to notify LEOs of permit status upon the demand of a police officer. Open carry is prohibited unless one possesses a recognized permit, and non-residents with out-of-state permits are granted automatic recognition.

    Every state has their own version of the law. For instance, here in Virginia an officer will be advised if the driver has a CHP, and it's up to the officer's discretion whether or not to ask ... but knowing that one has a CHP, I suspect that most would ask. The interesting aspect of Virginia law is that if one has a CHP and is openly carrying (and not also concealing), it is not necessary to present the CHP, since open carry in Virginia does not require a "permission slip." If one is not carrying at all, then one need not present their CHP when asked. Many Virginians will carry their CHP only when actually carrying concealed.
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    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    The reason officer's ask is based upon psychology. You know you have a license, you know he knows you have a license, so there's no harm in admitting it. Psychologically, you're now in a more agreeable mood to answer another innocent question.

    It's just that eventually, Officer Friendly's questions become more and more investigative in nature as he shifts more into 'field interview' mode as he looks to do his job.

    He's looking to find criminals
    He's looking for criminal intent
    He's looking for admissions of a criminal nature
    He's looking to put someone in jail
    and
    He's looking at you.

    And there's always the possibility that y̶o̶u̶'̶l̶l̶ someone will deny having one and thereby give him a reason to inquire further, or even make a citation for a false statement.
    Last edited by Fallschirmjäger; 01-05-2014 at 04:07 PM. Reason: I don't want James to think I'm advocating he do anything illegal.

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    Activist Member JamesCanby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fallschirmjäger View Post
    The reason officer's ask is based upon psychology. You know you have a license, you know he knows you have a license, so there's no harm in admitting it. Psychologically, you're now in a more agreeable mood to answer another innocent question.

    It's just that eventually, Officer Friendly's questions become more and more investigative in nature as he shifts more into 'field interview' mode as he looks to do his job.

    He's looking to find criminals
    He's looking for criminal intent
    He's looking for admissions of a criminal nature
    He's looking to put someone in jail
    and
    He's looking at you.

    And there's always the possibility that you'll deny having one and thereby give him a reason to inquire further, or even make a citation for a false statement.
    No, in my case -- and, I suspect, among most others I know, there is no possibility I'll "deny having one." The second thing we are taught* is never to lie. If asked, I will answer truthfully.

    *The first thing we are taught is to keep our big mouths shut.
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    Regular Member Fuller Malarkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JamesCanby View Post
    Inane response. All the officer knew was that the driver had been issued a license/permit. Knowing that, he had the right to ask to see it and he had the right to ask if the driver was carrying.
    Inane response? He pointed out not to buy into "fishing" attempts. Nothing "inane" about that, unless you are some sort of statist that believes by appeasing those intent on violating our rights you will be violated last. Or maybe it's that we should put our foot in traps for the good of the many?

    Further. Where do cops get "rights" from? Provided that the permit allows legal possession, either open carried or concealed, what grants the cop the "right" to demand disclosure?

    "Knowing that, he had the right...."

    I'd appreciate a cite indicating the declaration of that "right" granted law enforcement. Differentiate between "permitted to" and "right", or it'll come back to bite you.
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    Activist Member JamesCanby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fuller Malarkey View Post
    Inane response? He pointed out not to buy into "fishing" attempts. Nothing "inane" about that, unless you are some sort of statist that believes by appeasing those intent on violating our rights you will be violated last. Or maybe it's that we should put our foot in traps for the good of the many?

    Further. Where do cops get "rights" from? Provided that the permit allows legal possession, either open carried or concealed, what grants the cop the "right" to demand disclosure?

    "Knowing that, he had the right...."

    I'd appreciate a cite indicating the declaration of that "right" granted law enforcement. Differentiate between "permitted to" and "right", or it'll come back to bite you.
    It gets tiresome having to contend with several on this site that wordsmith every post, and call people "statists" when they don't toe your "all cops are bad" line.

    An officer can ask any question he/she likes. Whether we choose to answer is up to us. Indiana law specifies that a permit holder must present their permit upon demand by a police officer. Without looking up the specific Indiana statute, it seems obvious that an officer has the right to ask the question, especially if advised that the driver has a permit.
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    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JamesCanby View Post
    No, in my case -- and, I suspect, among most others I know, there is no possibility I'll "deny having one." The second thing we are taught* is never to lie. If asked, I will answer truthfully.

    *The first thing we are taught is to keep our big mouths shut.
    I'm sorry, James, I didn't for a moment think you'd take my saying "you" in my post as meaning you personally. I'll edit it to say "somebody" instead if that will make it more understandable to you.

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    Activist Member JamesCanby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fallschirmjäger View Post
    I'm sorry, James, I didn't for a moment think you'd take my saying "you" in my post as meaning you personally. I'll edit it to say "somebody" instead if that will make it more understandable to you.
    No problem in understanding what you meant, I didn't take it as directed only to me. I tried to indicate, perhaps poorly, my belief that just about all responsible carriers will not lie. They might answer evasively or not at all, but I think they understand that a lie will only exacerbate an already bad situation.
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    Regular Member Fuller Malarkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JamesCanby View Post
    It gets tiresome having to contend with several on this site that wordsmith every post, and call people "statists" when they don't toe your "all cops are bad" line.

    An officer can ask any question he/she likes. Whether we choose to answer is up to us. Indiana law specifies that a permit holder must present their permit upon demand by a police officer. Without looking up the specific Indiana statute, it seems obvious that an officer has the right to ask the question, especially if advised that the driver has a permit.
    Drop the obtuse act. What was put to you was where do cop's derive "rights" from, based on information that we have a carry permit? "Can" and "right" are not the same. It would also create a Catch-22 for our rights....practice the 2A and lose all protections of the 4th and 5th amendments?

    And how does following attorney advice to offer no non-required information to a cop become "inane"? What you label as inane was clarified as "probative questioning", not refusing statutory requirements.

    And I won't apologise for not buying into your "all cops are good" act.
    Last edited by Fuller Malarkey; 01-05-2014 at 04:50 PM.
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    Activist Member JamesCanby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fuller Malarkey View Post
    Drop the obtuse act. What was put to you was where do cop's derive "rights" from, based on information that we have a carry permit? "Can" and "right" are not the same. It would also create a Catch-22 for our rights....practice the 2A and lose all protections of the 4th and 5th amendments?

    And how does following attorney advice to offer no non-required information to a cop become "inane"? What you label as inane was clarified as "probative questioning", not refusing statutory requirements.

    And I won't apologise for not buying into your "all cops are good" act.
    Never said all cops are good, unlike your obvious blind bias against them. The bottom line is, most people are good and reasonable, and that applies to police as well as to those of us who carry. When we know our rights and exercise them accurately, politely and respectfully, I believe that most of us will not have a problem with LEOs. Engage in immediate belligerence and the situation will deteriorate quickly.
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    ...deteriorate to a citizens compliance exercise. "What we have here is a failure to communicate."
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JamesCanby View Post
    It gets tiresome having to contend with several on this site that wordsmith every post, and call people "statists" when they don't toe your "all cops are bad" line.

    An officer can ask any question he/she likes. Whether we choose to answer is up to us. Indiana law specifies that a permit holder must present their permit upon demand by a police officer. Without looking up the specific Indiana statute, it seems obvious that an officer has the right to ask the question, especially if advised that the driver has a permit.
    OK, but where does it say after presenting the permit that they then MUST answer questions about IF they presently have ANY ITEM THEY ARE LAWFULLY IN POSSESSION OF OR NOT IN POSSESSION OF?
    RIGHTS don't exist without RESPONSIBILITY!
    If one is not willing to stand for his rights, he doesn't have any Rights.
    I will strive to stand for the rights of ANY person, even those folks with whom I disagree!
    As said by SVG--- "I am not anti-COP, I am PRO-Citizen" and I'll add, PRO-Constitution.
    If the above makes me a RADICAL or EXTREME--- So be it!

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    Quote Originally Posted by JamesCanby View Post
    Never said all cops are good, unlike your obvious blind bias against them. The bottom line is, most people are good and reasonable, and that applies to police as well as to those of us who carry. When we know our rights and exercise them accurately, politely and respectfully, I believe that most of us will not have a problem with LEOs. Engage in immediate belligerence and the situation will deteriorate quickly.
    Nailed it. Agree 100%.

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    Activist Member JamesCanby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoeSparky View Post
    OK, but where does it say after presenting the permit that they then MUST answer questions about IF they presently have ANY ITEM THEY ARE LAWFULLY IN POSSESSION OF OR NOT IN POSSESSION OF?
    It doesn't, didn't say that it did. Once the driver has truthfully complied regarding his permit, he is free to answer any "probitive" questions -- or not. If he answers, he can be evasive but he cannot lie. In a recent YouTube, one of the most effective tactics was simply to say, "I don't answer questions," followed by "Am I free to go?" If he's not -- having been told that he's being detained -- then he must assume the officer has RAS and the best advice is to keep his big mouth shut until his lawyer is present. My point is that being polite and non-combative while refusing to answer questions can help to avoid the ride.
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    Regular Member Fuller Malarkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JamesCanby View Post
    Never said all cops are good, unlike your obvious blind bias against them. The bottom line is, most people are good and reasonable, and that applies to police as well as to those of us who carry. When we know our rights and exercise them accurately, politely and respectfully, I believe that most of us will not have a problem with LEOs. Engage in immediate belligerence and the situation will deteriorate quickly.
    Is reading hard for you? I asked for cite[s] regarding police "rights" to demand disclosure based on having a carry permit.

    I also asked what you find "inane" about following attorney advice [don't talk to the police] when dealing with investigative questions from police.

    Thats all. It's a forum. You discounted, discredited and dismissed a poster's input, based on nothing other than you feel the need to protect the profession of law enforcement, under the guise of officer "rights".
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  25. #25
    Regular Member Primus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fuller Malarkey View Post
    Is reading hard for you? I asked for cite[s] regarding police "rights" to demand disclosure based on having a carry permit.

    I also asked what you find "inane" about following attorney advice [don't talk to the police] when dealing with investigative questions from police.

    Thats all. It's a forum. You discounted, discredited and dismissed a poster's input, based on nothing other than you feel the need to protect the profession of law enforcement, under the guise of officer "rights".
    I'm pretty sure the cite was from the law that's says you must have the I'd and show it upon demand. I'll attempt to look that up in a second and post it. This isn't an uncommon thing to have in firearms I'd laws.

    But I'm fairly certain even once he or myself provide the cite you'll say "its not a RIGHT just because JTS in rhs law". I have a feeling that's your angle.

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