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pulled over by a policeman
- Thread starter coyote223
- Start date
JamesCanby
Activist Member
It doesn't, didn't say that it did. Once the driver has truthfully complied regarding his permit, he is free to answer any "probitive" questions -- or not. If he answers, he can be evasive but he cannot lie. In a recent YouTube, one of the most effective tactics was simply to say, "I don't answer questions," followed by "Am I free to go?" If he's not -- having been told that he's being detained -- then he must assume the officer has RAS and the best advice is to keep his big mouth shut until his lawyer is present. My point is that being polite and non-combative while refusing to answer questions can help to avoid the ride.
Fuller Malarkey
Regular Member
Is reading hard for you? I asked for cite
I also asked what you find "inane" about following attorney advice [don't talk to the police] when dealing with investigative questions from police.
Thats all. It's a forum. You discounted, discredited and dismissed a poster's input, based on nothing other than you feel the need to protect the profession of law enforcement, under the guise of officer "rights".
Primus
Regular Member
I'm pretty sure the cite was from the law that's says you must have the I'd and show it upon demand. I'll attempt to look that up in a second and post it. This isn't an uncommon thing to have in firearms I'd laws.
But I'm fairly certain even once he or myself provide the cite you'll say "its not a RIGHT just because JTS in rhs law". I have a feeling that's your angle.
Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk
Fuller Malarkey
Regular Member
Therein lies the problem. WHO determines "accurately"? What rights are recognized and protected that I can exercise "inaccurately"?
Can you list which rights should be forfeited to maintain a "polite" interaction with police?
There was nothing in the post you dismissed as "inane" about polite or impolite, respectful or disrespectful, [or "accurate?]. It simply highlighted to avoid "probative questioning". Don't bite the hook. Keep your foot out of the trap. Your version reeks of "if you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to fear...."
I think I'm seeing evidence of where one bad apple is beginning to affect the whole barrel.....
Fuller Malarkey
Regular Member
"I'm pretty sure" isn't a cite, regardless of your unsubstantiated claims to authority. Nor did I request one from you, as it has proved to be a waste of time. Getting you to comply with protocol here is like trying to catch a greased pig.
I've already confronted the poster of that un-cited post and warned him I'm aware of the difference between "permitted" and "right". Words have meaning.
Maverick9
Regular Member
Cite, please? That the officer has the 'right' to ask if the driver was carrying.
As far as I know the ONLY legal obligation is to produce the permit on demand.
An example which shows the ludicrous nature of this is what if the driver is carrying three firearms. Should he volunteer he's not only carrying one but also two more? What about the passenger? Is there a 'right' of the officer to know what the passenger is carrying, CHL or not?
I'd expect more of you James.
Fallschirjmäger
Active member
You guys have been going back and forth as to whether or not it's required.
Here's an idea... if it's required Somebody cite the respective body of the Indiana Code requiring such.
Easy, right?
If I may, I suggest with IC 35-47-2-24
HandgunLaw.US strongly implies that there is no duty to inform, and there does not appear to be any penalty associated for refusing to produce one on the side of the road.
Here's an idea... if it's required Somebody cite the respective body of the Indiana Code requiring such.
Easy, right?
If I may, I suggest with IC 35-47-2-24
HandgunLaw.US strongly implies that there is no duty to inform, and there does not appear to be any penalty associated for refusing to produce one on the side of the road.
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Fuller Malarkey
Regular Member
For the win.
Primus
Regular Member
Did I call it or what?
So be it. The contention was on whether it was in the law. I get it he purposely used the word "right" and not authority so that anyone who said they do someone can go... gotcha no they don't.
Falls I agree I saw that sane website but if you look close pretty sure it says you have no duty to inform that's different then having to give it upon demand. I did find a website that said you must show on demand. I'll post the link in a second. I couldn't find it in the actual statute and honestly gave up once I knew it wasn't going to help any.
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Primus
Regular Member
This is from Ehow... trying to find the actual root source of this info to use as a better cite.
"Indiana is a "shall issue" state. The issuing authority for a carry and conceal weapons (CCW) permit is the chief of police or county sheriff. Indiana's CCW permit does not qualify as a National Instant Criminal System (NICS) check. The following steps will help you obtain a CCW permit in Indiana
1
Receive a CCW permit from any other state. You must be a resident of Indiana or a non-resident employed in Indiana to apply for an Indiana CCW permit.
2
Fill out a one-page application with the police department or county sheriff's office and provide photo identification and your fingerprints.
3
Pay the applicable fees. In addition to the permit fee--and there are two types of permits, a four-year and a lifetime permit--fingerprinting also comes with a fee. If the application is denied, a portion of the fees will be refunded. The fingerprints will be forwarded to the Indiana State Police, so some issuing authorities may charge you postage or a notary fee.
4
Receive your permit in six to eight weeks. You do not need to inform the police you are carrying a concealed weapon, but you must present your permit upon demand and you should also carry your driver's license or photo ID.
5
Know that your permit will not allow you to carry a weapon on school property (public or private), the controlled areas of an airport, a riverboat casino, state fair or shipping port. You may, however, carry a firearm when transporting someone to or from school or to a school function.
Read more: http://www.ehow.com/how_2061097_get-permit-carry-concealed-weapon.html#ixzz2palQ6PLA
"Indiana is a "shall issue" state. The issuing authority for a carry and conceal weapons (CCW) permit is the chief of police or county sheriff. Indiana's CCW permit does not qualify as a National Instant Criminal System (NICS) check. The following steps will help you obtain a CCW permit in Indiana
1
Receive a CCW permit from any other state. You must be a resident of Indiana or a non-resident employed in Indiana to apply for an Indiana CCW permit.
2
Fill out a one-page application with the police department or county sheriff's office and provide photo identification and your fingerprints.
3
Pay the applicable fees. In addition to the permit fee--and there are two types of permits, a four-year and a lifetime permit--fingerprinting also comes with a fee. If the application is denied, a portion of the fees will be refunded. The fingerprints will be forwarded to the Indiana State Police, so some issuing authorities may charge you postage or a notary fee.
4
Receive your permit in six to eight weeks. You do not need to inform the police you are carrying a concealed weapon, but you must present your permit upon demand and you should also carry your driver's license or photo ID.
5
Know that your permit will not allow you to carry a weapon on school property (public or private), the controlled areas of an airport, a riverboat casino, state fair or shipping port. You may, however, carry a firearm when transporting someone to or from school or to a school function.
Read more: http://www.ehow.com/how_2061097_get-permit-carry-concealed-weapon.html#ixzz2palQ6PLA
Fallschirjmäger
Active member
Not to be obstructive, but I'm fairly sure Ehow.com does not count as a citation to the laws of the state of Indiana.
If someone would be so kind as to post an actual citation to a website run by the government of the State of Indiana, it'd sure be appreciated.
Again, to make it easier, I recommend IC 35.47 which is the Indiana Code with regard to Weapons and Violence.
If someone would be so kind as to post an actual citation to a website run by the government of the State of Indiana, it'd sure be appreciated.
Again, to make it easier, I recommend IC 35.47 which is the Indiana Code with regard to Weapons and Violence.
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Fuller Malarkey
Regular Member
Nope. I distinctly called JamesCanby on citing the source that granted police rights to demand disclosure of carry status and location. Nothing about law, or turn signals or what ever other straw man / red herring you are trying to use here.
Primus
Regular Member
http://www.handgunlaw.us/states/indiana.pdf
Bottom of page 5 on here says:
From IN State Police FAQ’s
Q. Does Indiana statute require me to carry the handgun on my person concealed or
exposed?
A. Indiana law is silent on this issue; however, carrying an exposed weapon in public may alarm some
people. Also, the right to carry a firearm may be restricted on private property and businesses by the
owners. Be attentive for signs warning of restricted areas when carrying firearms into public places.
If approached by law enforcement for official business such as traffic stops or complaint related
inquiries, it is recommended that you tell the officer in a non-threatening manner that you are
carrying a weapon or have a weapon in the vehicle and that you have a valid permit. A law
enforcement officer does have the right to inspect the permit.
Note: I can find no reference in Indiana Law stating you must carry your Permit. The FAQ from the IN St.
Police states they do have the right to inspect your permit. "
I agree with the note, I still can't find the statute, but ive seen it a few places. Not sure if guys are just going by the FAQ from the state police? This actually has me interested now...
first, john q public is not formally trained nor knowledgeable in their rights.
second, nor is john q public formally trained on how to exercise their rights accurately. (to be honest, i am truly not even sure i understand how to exercise my rights accurately?)
third, john q public is not formally trained to be polite nor respectful to anybody.
four, i take exception to your use of 'most of us' can you quantify who specifically is 'most of us' so i can climb on the exclusive train and not have a problem with LEOs during their interactions with john q public.
therein lies, IMHO, the crux of the problem, 'johnny law' is formally trained on how to mislead citizens so 'johnny law's agenda is met, no matter what rights the john q public citizen has.
finally, you predict disastrous ramifications if john q public is belligerent to johnny law, yet when is exercising my rights, accurately as well as politely and respectfully cross the line for johnny law whom might just consider my rights exercise as belligerent?
hummm?
ipse
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davidmcbeth
Banned
From my reading of the various literature posted it appears as if you can be arrested if you do not have your permit with you but the DA must vacate the arrest when presented with a permit.
Given this, I would not carry my permit with me. Maybe a copy of the original. Keep the original in a safe secure location outside the grasp of gov't officials.
I understand why the law is written the way it is ... given my knowledge of the history of Indiana
Given this, I would not carry my permit with me. Maybe a copy of the original. Keep the original in a safe secure location outside the grasp of gov't officials.
I understand why the law is written the way it is ... given my knowledge of the history of Indiana
Fallschirjmäger
Active member
With respect, I do not believe that what the police say, is the same as what the law authorizes, permits, or commands. The police are neither a legislative nor judicial body, they have no authority to make or interpret law.
The police have the right to ask if you like the color blue, the police have the right to ask if you like your steak rare or well done. That does not confer authority to demand compliance. In spite of that, how do the police have the authority to demand to inspect something that one is not commanded to carry (according to the source you just quoted)?
Again, I have provided for you a link to the Indiana Legislature's website containing each and every law passed by the Indiana Congress.
I respectfully submit, that if a reasonably thorough search of the Indiana Code does not produce a citation to a law then the likelihood is that said law does not exist.
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primus, come on, you have whined over and over you are being unfairly picked on by forum members and that such tactics are unwarranted.
yet after 1.2K posts you would think you would be able to understand a valid cite is from a reliable and perhaps unbiased source...handgun, wiki, and now ehow? these are not, as you were called out on, reliable cites.
come on are you that slow of a learner or are you being obtuse on purpose? if it is the latter, then i am afraid you are deserving of all the criticism you have received to date and will receive in the future.
ipse
yet after 1.2K posts you would think you would be able to understand a valid cite is from a reliable and perhaps unbiased source...handgun, wiki, and now ehow? these are not, as you were called out on, reliable cites.
come on are you that slow of a learner or are you being obtuse on purpose? if it is the latter, then i am afraid you are deserving of all the criticism you have received to date and will receive in the future.
ipse
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Fuller Malarkey
Regular Member
Fuller Malarkey
Regular Member
It is the first time I'm aware of in his 1200 posts he's ever put effort into providing a cite. His idea of what a credible cite is lines with a lot of his other reasoning. :lol::lol::lol: