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Thread: Carry at the YMCA?

  1. #1
    Regular Member anmut's Avatar
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    Carry at the YMCA?

    Dropped by boy off their today, didn't see any signs on the doors. I know there's a day care within the building during the work week - is that covered under school zones? I stared pretty hard at the doors inside and out and didn't see any signs. Surprising, really.

  2. #2
    Regular Member JustaShooter's Avatar
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    Our local YMCA doesn't have any no guns signs on the outer doors, but does have a no guns sign after you pass the check-in desk on the inner doors that lead to the main facility.
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    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by anmut
    I know there's a day care within the building during the work week - is that covered under school zones?
    No, a day care is not a school.

    948.61(1)(b) says:
    "School" means a public school, parochial or private school, or tribal school... which provides an educational program for one or more grades between grades 1 and 12 and which is commonly known as an elementary school, middle school, junior high school, senior high school, or high school.

    (For a tribal school, the restriction includes kindergarten.)

    Quote Originally Posted by JustaShooter
    Our local YMCA doesn't have any no guns signs on the outer doors, but does have a no guns sign after you pass the check-in desk on the inner doors that lead to the main facility.
    Interesting nuance.
    I don't know if that would count, since it's not near the entrance to the building, it's inside the building.
    Last edited by MKEgal; 01-06-2014 at 07:26 PM.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    The NRA Enemies List: AARP to YMCA

    Recently surfaced is a list published last year by the NRA of hundreds of allegedly "anti-gun" organizations, celebrities, journalists and corporations........

    https://www.commondreams.org/further/2013/02/04
    Last edited by Grapeshot; 01-06-2014 at 08:15 PM.
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  5. #5
    Regular Member JustaShooter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MKEgal View Post
    Interesting nuance.
    I don't know if that would count, since it's not near the entrance to the building, it's inside the building.
    In Ohio it counts - though, to me it would imply it is OK to carry in the vestibule but not past the posted doors. I am not sure about other states.
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  6. #6
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    Ymca

    Not only is the Building posted, but the have signs in the parking lot as well in La Crosse.

    JJC

  7. #7
    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
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    Posting parking lots doesn't mean anything.

    This specifically exempts licensees from obeying "keep out, evil gun owner" signs on land:
    943.13 trespass
    (1m) Whoever does any of the following is subject to a Class B forfeiture
    (b) Enters or remains on any land of another after having been notified by the owner or occupant not to enter or remain on the premises. This paragraph does not apply to a licensee or out-of-state licensee if the owner's or occupant's intent is to prevent the licensee or out-of-state licensee from carrying a firearm on the owner's or occupant's land.


    943.13(1m)(c)(2) talks about being on nonresidential property or in a nonresidential building, and specifically exempts parking lots.

    While carrying a firearm, enters or remains in any part of a nonresidential building, grounds of a nonresidential building, or land that the actor does not own or occupy after the owner ... has notified the actor not to enter or remain ... This subdivision does not apply ... if the firearm is in a vehicle driven or parked in the parking facility, to any part of a building, grounds, or land used as a parking facility.

  8. #8
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MKEgal View Post
    Posting parking lots doesn't mean anything.

    This specifically exempts licensees from obeying "keep out, evil gun owner" signs on land:
    943.13 trespass
    (1m) Whoever does any of the following is subject to a Class B forfeiture
    (b) Enters or remains on any land of another after having been notified by the owner or occupant not to enter or remain on the premises. This paragraph does not apply to a licensee or out-of-state licensee if the owner's or occupant's intent is to prevent the licensee or out-of-state licensee from carrying a firearm on the owner's or occupant's land.


    943.13(1m)(c)(2) talks about being on nonresidential property or in a nonresidential building, and specifically exempts parking lots.

    While carrying a firearm, enters or remains in any part of a nonresidential building, grounds of a nonresidential building, or land that the actor does not own or occupy after the owner ... has notified the actor not to enter or remain ... This subdivision does not apply ... if the firearm is in a vehicle driven or parked in the parking facility, to any part of a building, grounds, or land used as a parking facility.
    Particularly nice find.

    Allows one to drive onto the property, park, and enter a friendly store if done so by not entering unfriendly (mall common areas) territory. Would seem to apply equally to small strip centers as well as major shopping centers.
    Better to not open your mouth and be thought the fool, than to open it and remove all doubt.

    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    It is a particularly nice find(!) for the mind set of state instructors that teach only the prohibitions - "You can't carry here, you can't do that."

    A better approach might be to instruct how a LAC approaches this or that situation, what does it take to carry safely legally at the statehouse, the statehouse parking facility, ... , your local government center, kids' school, and most importantly, your favorite bar.

    Another effective, though time consuming, approach might be to carefully cover the applicable laws, line by line, and ensuring understanding of the students.

    My local LAC's, paying ($100/head) clients of the instructor excused for his good faith errors, are convinced that they cannot legally carry in a bar. A gentleman that I regard as particularly astute informed me that I could not carry in the grocery store because it is adjacent to our private infant day care. It is not like the instructor, excused for good faith errors, has lots of example hypothetical circumstances to screw up here.

    Thank goodness for military training documented on a DD214!
    I know a lot of people on here don't care for instructors. But the type of instructor you've described here gives the rest of us bad name. Those instructors make my job twice as hard for when I have to explain to some individuals that they can carry into "bars" and certain "mall stores".
    As for my classes, I do instruct on when and where it's legal to carry. (Bars and such).

    JJC
    Last edited by JJC; 01-08-2014 at 12:51 PM.

  10. #10
    Regular Member anmut's Avatar
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    Okay, I didn't look for signs in the parking lot, and there were no signs past the check in area and no signs on the doors. The day care doesn't count as a school zone. Carry On then, eh?!

    This was the Stevens Point YMCA btw.

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    Not saying anything, but if I had a kid (I don't) in daycare and was worried about it, I'd at least have a pocket rocket in my pocket. The only way someone would know I had it would be if some crazy nutbat was there (with a gun) to shoot people. And if I were there when that happened, I don't think that afterwards people would yell at me...and if they did, I'd not care anyway.

  12. #12
    Regular Member wimwag's Avatar
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    It's legal if it's not posted, but if you're planning on working out maybe it's not so tactically sound...either way, if they are against it you'll find out soon enough.

  13. #13
    Regular Member wimwag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MKEgal View Post
    Posting parking lots doesn't mean anything.

    This specifically exempts licensees from obeying "keep out, evil gun owner" signs on land:
    943.13 trespass
    (1m) Whoever does any of the following is subject to a Class B forfeiture
    (b) Enters or remains on any land of another after having been notified by the owner or occupant not to enter or remain on the premises. This paragraph does not apply to a licensee or out-of-state licensee if the owner's or occupant's intent is to prevent the licensee or out-of-state licensee from carrying a firearm on the owner's or occupant's land.


    943.13(1m)(c)(2) talks about being on nonresidential property or in a nonresidential building, and specifically exempts parking lots.

    While carrying a firearm, enters or remains in any part of a nonresidential building, grounds of a nonresidential building, or land that the actor does not own or occupy after the owner ... has notified the actor not to enter or remain ... This subdivision does not apply ... if the firearm is in a vehicle driven or parked in the parking facility, to any part of a building, grounds, or land used as a parking facility.
    Nice! I keep a folder in my car with the statutes printed out and I need to highlight the parking lot thing. Given my luck lately, I may need to reference it to an uneducated officer.

  14. #14
    Regular Member Primus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wimwag View Post
    Nice! I keep a folder in my car with the statutes printed out and I need to highlight the parking lot thing. Given my luck lately, I may need to reference it to an uneducated officer.
    This is actually a really good idea. Has it worked before? Meeting a wrong officer and being able to show him him the statute right there and then to clear up his mistake? Especially with something like highlighted.

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    Regular Member wimwag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Primus View Post
    This is actually a really good idea. Has it worked before? Meeting a wrong officer and being able to show him him the statute right there and then to clear up his mistake? Especially with something like highlighted.

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    Not in a stop, but once I had to correct a deputy at the barber shop. He says "who are you going to believe? A cop or him? Lol. It was beautiful.

  16. #16
    Regular Member wimwag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    LOL and neither "civilians" nor cops ever lie or alter printed statutes.

    Believe nothing read or heard without verifying it oneself unless it Weltanschauung congruent (fits your pre-existing world view).
    I don't expect them to take my word for it, I expect them to call it in. Or pay me $$$$$$$$ in a settlement.

  17. #17
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    And this is in the Wisconsin forum for what reason.
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  18. #18
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firearms Iinstuctor View Post
    And this is in the Wisconsin forum for what reason.
    Moved it to the Virginia sub-forum.
    Better to not open your mouth and be thought the fool, than to open it and remove all doubt.

    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Primus View Post
    This is actually a really good idea. Has it worked before? Meeting a wrong officer and being able to show him him the statute right there and then to clear up his mistake? Especially with something like highlighted.
    The only time my local PD stopped me about OC (I was afoot at a city Independence Day carnival) I was able to show the duty Sgt and Lt the relevant statutes on their PC by going to the State web page. It didn't take very long before they were pretty much deciding that they needed to update and correct some department training to make sure the officers knew what the law actually had to say about OCing.

    I was in a position to show them the statutes, and them to be receptive to it, because I had made sure the interaction with their officers had not been confrontational. I firmly, but politely, had declined requests and suggestions to conceal my firearm. I had then suggested that we might visit with a Duty Sgt to straighten things out. And so I had the chance to spend a few minutes in the "mobile command post" (an RV with internet access for their PC) showing the supervisors the statute and explaining to them how various parts of the code interacted.

    I know those who can cite chapter and verse and then quote statute from memory. I'm not quite that good. And so I keep a small cheat sheet folded in my wallet with code sections and relevant excerpts. This is not for me to hand to anyone else to read to "prove" I'm right. Rather, it is to allow me to provide specific citations to relevant code sections when needed. It is rarely needed in my area. But when it is, it is sure nice to have.

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