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Thread: man violated new gun law

  1. #1
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    man violated new gun law

    http://www.thehour.com/news/norwalk/...f302eff3d.html

    Are the police allowed to request the firearm just because they noticed he had a permit? and does making the firearm safe involve removing the bullets from the magazine?
    Last edited by Grapeshot; 01-07-2014 at 03:18 PM. Reason: Fixed title

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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    ".....felt like he was being tailgated....." Now that is a new one for manufacturing RAS. Thug cop.

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    The officer wrote Watson a summons and gave him back his gun and the magazine, telling him to store the items in his trunk until he arrived at his home, according to police.


    I don't see that the guy presented any testimony in respect the the task force.

    He claims he had no idea about when the law was to take effect.

    Surprised the cop gave him back his gun ... now the 10+ bullet charge is likely gone (no evidence) ... and he should get rid of the magazine.

    No evidence = no conviction.

    Of course, it sounds like he talked to the police .. who knows what he told him .. that could be evidence that'll be problematic.

    BS law making felons out of Americans.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CT WHIT View Post
    http://www.thehour.com/news/norwalk/...f302eff3d.html

    Are the police allowed to request the firearm just because they noticed he had a permit? and does making the firearm safe involve removing the bullets from the magazine?
    They can take the firearm because it was a traffic stop -- officer safety.

    However, they cannot take the mag out and count the rounds IMO ... that's a search.

    Depends on how the guy gave the cop his gun ... "here, take this?" or "can I have your gun for a moment?" instead of "I do not consent"

    But as far as the cop being able to take the gun in the first place, the guy can argue that doing do places himself at risk....so said: DESPP, DAS, and the Executive Director of the OLM
    Last edited by davidmcbeth; 01-07-2014 at 05:09 PM.

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    Regular Member DDoutel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    ".....felt like he was being tailgated....." Now that is a new one for manufacturing RAS. Thug cop.
    It's Norwalk; of course they're jackboots.
    D. T. Doutel

    What is to the lawyer or cop a "material misrepresentation of the facts", and to the politician "misspeaking" is, in common parlance, a bald-faced lie. And don't let anyone tell you different!

    Visit Connecticut Carry and LiarCop.com for the latest news regarding Norwalk v. Doutel and Doutel v. Norwalk.

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    Regular Member tomrkba's Avatar
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    How did a traffic stop devolve into a personal search?

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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Will the defense involve the legality of the mag "search." Or, does the burden rest on the citizen to prove that there are not more than 10 rounds in the weapon, and the cop can check once he has the weapon to verify compliance. The cop was not apparently all that concerned about the "gun" and wrote the guy a "ticket" and sent him on his way. It seems to me, and is just a guess/impression, that the cop is not too jazzed about enforcing that particular gun law but did the minimum required of him.

    Gives the gun back and tells the "perp" to put the gun in the trunk. Why not have the "perp" pop the trunk and the cop place the gun there.

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    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tomrkba View Post
    How did a traffic stop devolve into a personal search?
    Officer Safety.

    Officer Friendly noticed a license for a legal activity; fearing for his safety, he conducted a pat down for weapons.
    Finding a weapon and again fearing for his safety should the weapon be capable of firing more than 10 shots from a magazine, he searched the for incriminating evidence.

    What I wonder is, if the DESPP Declaration has been filled out, how are the police supposed to tell one registered magazine from another non-registered magazine?


    The citation is one of those things that a few, very small number of officers are known for. "It'll all be settled in the courts. If he's not convicted then it's no harm, no foul and everyone goes home happy."
    Last edited by Fallschirmjäger; 01-09-2014 at 02:45 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fallschirmjäger View Post
    Officer Safety.

    Officer Friendly noticed a license for a legal activity; fearing for his safety, he conducted a pat down for weapons.
    Finding a weapon and again fearing for his safety should the weapon be capable of firing more than 10 shots from a magazine, he searched the for incriminating evidence.

    What I wonder is, if the DESPP Declaration has been filled out, how are the police supposed to tell one registered magazine from another non-registered magazine?


    The citation is one of those things that a few, very small number of officers are known for. "It'll all be settled in the courts. If he's not convicted then it's no harm, no foul and everyone goes home happy."
    Please forgive the legislature...they really had to rush the legislation through while everyone was mourning the tragedy. The small detail of magazines having no serial numbers didn't exactly figure into anyone's calculus. Therefore, the only things being registered are the PEOPLE WHO HAVE LCMs. LCMs can be bought/sold/traded/borrowed among people who have registered as possessing the same magazines and the state is none the wiser. If/when the state decides to confiscate them (waiting for the next tragedy, I suppose) they will go to those folks and take them. Every day that passes from Jan 1 2014, the PC to believe an individual is in possession of an LCM based on the declaration becomes more and more stale. In five years, the declarations won't be worth a damn as people die, move, sell, lose, break their LCMs. I don't know how the state will be able to differentiate between pre-ban and post-ban magazines if an individual has declared their LCMs...so it's safe to say that the goal is and always will be to confiscate them all at a later date. Jan 1 2014 was just a cutoff date to prevent any grandfathering issues with later confiscation.

    Meanwhile, folks who are ignorant of the new law OR who disregarded the new law will not be known/discovered and will get to keep their LCMs.

    This law, like many (most?) gun laws, is merely designed to create a criminal class of people out of the law abiding...once people become felons, the whole gun ban/2A issue becomes moot for them.
    Last edited by CT Barfly; 01-10-2014 at 08:24 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    Will the defense involve the legality of the mag "search." Or, does the burden rest on the citizen to prove that there are not more than 10 rounds in the weapon, and the cop can check once he has the weapon to verify compliance. The cop was not apparently all that concerned about the "gun" and wrote the guy a "ticket" and sent him on his way. It seems to me, and is just a guess/impression, that the cop is not too jazzed about enforcing that particular gun law but did the minimum required of him.

    Gives the gun back and tells the "perp" to put the gun in the trunk. Why not have the "perp" pop the trunk and the cop place the gun there.
    Best bet is to clearly state (verbally only) that you do not consent to any search or being disarmed. DO NOT RESIST. The officer will disarm and do the round count anyways but if he tries to bust you for having an unregistered LCM (there's no LCM registry, only a list of LCM owners) you'll at least be able to challenge whether the search of your personal belongings (which requires probable cause and not mere RAS) was warranted by the traffic stop which is ostensibly unrelated to a gun in the first place. People get stopped for traffic violations all the time, they don't get their cars/homes searched as a result...a blown stop sign is not a reason to conduct a full search.

    As soon as you get home, FOIA the dash camera/audio and paperwork from your stop. You'll be able to see what information was available to the officer at the time of the arrest. These days, CT dealers are selling CT compliant firearms. The same Glock you can buy out of state with a standard 15rd mag is sold in state with a 10rd mag and they are not easily distinguished. There can be no PC to believe you're in violation of any gun-related law based upon the fact that you are in possession of a given firearm so all he can do is check available records (felon, AW registry, LCM declarant, LTCPRs). If there's an issue there, then all bets are off. If you're in compliance, no PC, no search.

    This hasn't been really tested yet as the law is too new.
    Last edited by CT Barfly; 01-10-2014 at 08:41 AM.

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    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    It occurs to me to wonder...

    Shouldn't the form be updated as possessors sell, trade, acquire or dispose of lawfully held magazines?

    If on Monday, you give/transfer/sell/dispose of a magazine shouldn't you submit a new form to the state?
    And if on Tuesday, you accept/purchase/receive/acquire a lawful magazine, shouldn't you then submit another new form?

    The state wants forms.... give 'em forms.
    Upon recent investigation, that may not be the best idea. There's an initial and recurring $35 fee (every 5 years) for paperwork.
    Last edited by Fallschirmjäger; 01-11-2014 at 01:00 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fallschirmjäger View Post
    Upon recent investigation, that may not be the best idea. There's an initial and recurring $35 fee (every 5 years) for paperwork.
    I don't understand what new/recurring fee you are referring to. The ammo certificate? I can't find any requirement for renewal or cost of magazine renewals. Not sure what I'm missing, but I don't want to miss it!

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    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skinnedknuckles View Post
    I don't understand what new/recurring fee you are referring to. The ammo certificate? I can't find any requirement for renewal or cost of magazine renewals. Not sure what I'm missing, but I don't want to miss it!
    Well dang your eyes, Skinned. Someone said there was a cost and I searched 13-3 and 13-220 for the word "Dollars." I only found it once in 13-220 but a couple times in 13-3.... And I think you're right, I do Not see any dollar amount in Section 24, where it speaks of 'large capacity death dealing pieces of sheet metal.'

    Public Act No. 13-3AN ACT CONCERNING GUN VIOLENCE PREVENTION AND CHILDREN'S SAFETY.
    Sec. 24. (NEW) (Effective from passage)
    (a) Any person who lawfully possesses a large capacity magazine prior to January 1, 2014, shall apply by January 1, 2014, or, if such person is a member of the military or naval forces of this state or of the United States and is unable to apply by January 1, 2014, because such member is or was on official duty outside of this state, shall apply within ninety days of returning to the state to the Department of Emergency Services and Public Protection to declare possession of such magazine. Such application shall be made on such form or in such manner as the Commissioner of Emergency Services and Public Protection prescribes.

    (b) In addition to the application form prescribed under subsection (a) of this section, the department shall design or amend the application forms for a certificate of possession for an assault weapon under section 53-202d of the general statutes, as amended by this act, or for a permit to carry a pistol or revolver under section 29-28a of the general statutes, a long gun eligibility certificate under section 2 of this act, an eligibility certificate for a pistol or revolver under section 29-36f of the general statutes, as amended by this act, or any renewal of such permit or certificate to permit an applicant to declare possession of a large capacity magazine pursuant to this section upon the same application.

    (c) The department may adopt regulations, in accordance with the provisions of chapter 54 of the general statutes, to establish procedures with respect to applications under this section. Notwithstanding the provisions of sections 1-210 and 1-211 of the general statutes, the name and address of a person who has declared possession of a large capacity magazine shall be confidential and shall not be disclosed, except such records may be disclosed to
    (1) law enforcement agencies and employees of the United States Probation Office acting in the performance of their duties, and
    (2) the Commissioner of Mental Health and Addiction Services to carry out the provisions of subsection (c) of section 17a-500 of the general statutes, as amended by this act.

    (d) Any person who moves into the state in lawful possession of a large capacity magazine shall, within ninety days, either render the large capacity magazine permanently inoperable, sell the large capacity magazine to a licensed gun dealer or remove the large capacity magazine from this state, except that any person who is a member of the military or naval forces of this state or of the United States, is in lawful possession of a large capacity magazine and has been transferred into the state after January 1, 2014, may, within ninety days of arriving in the state, apply to the Department of Emergency Services and Public Protection to declare possession of such large capacity magazine.

    (e)
    (1) If an owner of a large capacity magazine transfers the large capacity magazine to a licensed gun dealer, such dealer shall, at the time of delivery of the large capacity magazine, execute a certificate of transfer. For any transfer prior to January 1, 2014, the dealer shall provide to the Commissioner of Emergency Services and Public Protection monthly reports, on such form as the commissioner prescribes, regarding the number of transfers that the dealer has accepted. For any transfer on or after January 1, 2014, the dealer shall cause the certificate of transfer to be mailed or delivered to the Commissioner of Emergency Services and Public Protection. The certificate of transfer shall contain: (A) The date of sale or transfer; (B) the name and address of the seller or transferor and the licensed gun dealer, and their Social Security numbers or motor vehicle operator license numbers, if applicable; (C) the licensed gun dealer's federal firearms license number; and (D) a description of the large capacity magazine.

    (2) The licensed gun dealer shall present such dealer's federal firearms license and seller's permit to the seller or transferor for inspection at the time of purchase or transfer.
    (3) The Commissioner of Emergency Services and Public Protection shall maintain a file of all certificates of transfer at the commissioner's central office.

    (f) Any person who declared possession of a large capacity magazine under this section may possess the large capacity magazine only under the following conditions:

    (1) At that person's residence;
    (2) At that person's place of business or other property owned by that person, provided such large capacity magazine contains not more than ten bullets;
    (3) While on the premises of a target range of a public or private club or organization organized for the purpose of practicing shooting at targets;
    (4) While on a target range which holds a regulatory or business license for the purpose of practicing shooting at that target range;
    (5) While on the premises of a licensed shooting club;
    (6) While transporting the large capacity magazine between any of the places set forth in this subsection, or to any licensed gun dealer, provided (A) such large capacity magazine contains not more than ten bullets, and (B) the large capacity magazine is transported in the manner required for an assault weapon under subdivision (2) of subsection (a) of 53-202f (a)(2) of the general statutes, as amended by this act; or
    (7) Pursuant to a valid permit to carry a pistol or revolver, provided such large capacity magazine (A) is within a pistol or revolver that was lawfully possessed by the person prior to the effective date of this section, (B) does not extend beyond the bottom of the pistol grip, and (C) contains not more than ten bullets.

    (g) Any person who violates the provisions of subsection (f) of this section shall be guilty of a class C misdemeanor.
    Okay, for now I'm saying "I don't see any cost to have the form sent in, you cannot seem to acquire new 'pre-ban' magazines, you can only transfer/sell to a licensed FFL, the police (or maybe out of state). And it doesn't say what happens if it should become inoperable or lost."
    Last edited by Fallschirmjäger; 01-11-2014 at 07:30 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Skinnedknuckles View Post
    I don't understand what new/recurring fee you are referring to. The ammo certificate? I can't find any requirement for renewal or cost of magazine renewals. Not sure what I'm missing, but I don't want to miss it!
    You're thinking in the future ... this session they'll be tacking $$$ on for every mag ... 35 bucks seems reasonable, yes? Per year, month or day?

  15. #15
    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    53-202f(a)(2) as mentioned above
    Sec. 53-202f. Transportation of assault weapon. Authorized actions of gun dealer.
    (a) While transporting an assault weapon between any of the places mentioned in subdivisions (1) to (6), inclusive, of subsection (d) of section 53-202d, no person shall carry a loaded assault weapon concealed from public view or knowingly have, in any motor vehicle owned, operated or occupied by him
    (1) a loaded assault weapon, or
    (2) an unloaded assault weapon (or unloaded assault magazine) unless such weapon (magazine) is kept in the trunk of such vehicle or in a case or other container which is inaccessible to the operator of or any passenger in such vehicle.
    Any person who violates the provisions of this subsection shall be fined not more than five hundred dollars or imprisoned not more than three years or both.
    It would seem that it you are not at home, or on a range, etc., then the "high capacity magazine" must be transported unloaded and in a trunk, case, or other container.

    It looks like Watson tried to comply with the law but was unaware of the 'transport unloaded' provision contained in a completely different statute.
    Last edited by Fallschirmjäger; 01-11-2014 at 07:37 PM.

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