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Thread: Rights on Public College Campuses?

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    Regular Member The Trickster's Avatar
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    Rights on Public College Campuses?

    Concerning colleges and universities that are publicly funded here in Arizona, my understanding is that I can leave my pistol secured in my vehicle but cannot carry while on the campus. Is this true? If so, can anyone cite a statute?
    I am starting school at a Maricopa County community college in a few weeks and I'd like to know what (little) rights I have while on "their" property.

    Thanks.

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    Regular Member azcdlfred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Trickster View Post
    Concerning colleges and universities that are publicly funded here in Arizona, my understanding is that I can leave my pistol secured in my vehicle but cannot carry while on the campus. Is this true? If so, can anyone cite a statute? I am starting school at a Maricopa County community college in a few weeks and I'd like to know what (little) rights I have while on "their" property. Thanks.
    ARS 13-2911.D grants absolute power to the governing board of the college to determine weapons policy. Unless your college allows a gun in your car, it is "illegal." Other weapons sections in the law do not apply to college and university campuses.

    This is why Campus Carry has been such a problem in Arizona. Governing Boards are given dictatorial powers. That coupled with too many legislators whose spines have dropped out through their asses.

    Fred

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    Regular Member The Trickster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by azcdlfred View Post
    ARS 13-2911.D grants absolute power to the governing board of the college to determine weapons policy. Unless your college allows a gun in your car, it is "illegal." Other weapons sections in the law do not apply to college and university campuses.

    This is why Campus Carry has been such a problem in Arizona. Governing Boards are given dictatorial powers. That coupled with too many legislators whose spines have dropped out through their asses.

    Fred
    Thanks for the info; aren't dictatorial powers wonderful?

    I fail to understand what is so special and unique about college campuses which warrants a prohibition on carrying. I'm under the assumption that it's just another one of those "feel good" policies to make inept parents and students feel safe under the guise that their policy would stop an armed, murderous madman. How many more shootings in "gun-free" zones need to occur before these people realize that no such place actually exists?

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    Regular Member azcdlfred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Trickster View Post
    I fail to understand what is so special and unique about college campuses
    Colleges and universities are nothing more than a continuation of the warehousing and leftist indoctrination of "children" that started with Kindergarten. Any education that occurs is accidental.

    No one cares about the rules when it comes to drinking, drugs and partying, but if one coed pulls a gun on her attacker, she will be punished severely.

    Fred

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    Regular Member The Trickster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by azcdlfred View Post
    Colleges and universities are nothing more than a continuation of the warehousing and leftist indoctrination of "children" that started with Kindergarten. Any education that occurs is accidental.

    No one cares about the rules when it comes to drinking, drugs and partying, but if one coed pulls a gun on her attacker, she will be punished severely.

    Fred
    Very well said, Fred. I especially like the fact that you quoted the word "children," which is exactly the way they seem to view their students and treat them accordingly. I will not allow myself to succumb to their twisted wiles. Years ago, I watched as my ex-fiancée slowly fell from being a fairly level-headed girl when she started at ASU to a total statist/authoritarian by the time she graduated (hence the fact that she is my EX). What's worse is that her grandfather had foreseen the whole occurrence and had even warned her against it. But, putting up with their same old regurgitated BS while maintaining my position as a beacon of reason will be well worth the pricey piece of paper I'll eventually receive which will allow me to finally enter a more interesting line of work.

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    Regular Member The Trickster's Avatar
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    Oh, and that link you provided for reference is pretty scary stuff. Essentially, one really has no rights whatsoever while on the grounds of an "educational institution" as virtually anything that can be imagined can be (intentionally or unintentionally) misconstrued as "interfering" or "disrupting," and one is thus subject to the will of any of the demi-gods ... ahem ... I mean campus staff. Wonderful!
    Last edited by The Trickster; 01-08-2014 at 09:50 PM.

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    Regular Member FreeInAZ's Avatar
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    Fighting a bout of insomnia - on topic: sadly Trickster it wouldn't really matter (for students anyway) if colleges in AZ were not given decorators authorities. In my former state of MI only the big 3 (UofM, MSU & Wayne State) have these powers. No matter though, as today almost all colleges have a prohibition in their student rules that state the possession of any dangerous weapon is a offense punishable by expulsion! The trick is YOU must sign a student contract that states you will obey their rules (to hell with the constitution), if you refuse to sign you cannot attend. So for reality sake - all colleges are crime empowerment zones, whether state law allows carry or not!
    Last edited by FreeInAZ; 01-09-2014 at 04:58 AM.
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    Regular Member azcdlfred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Trickster View Post
    I especially like the fact that you quoted the word "children," which is exactly the way they seem to view their students and treat them accordingly
    Being a geezer, when I grew you stopped being a child when you were in your teens, started living on your own at 18 and were considered an adult at 21. And colleges were places where people were expected to act (and dress) like adults.

    A century ago, kids were living and working on their own before their teens. Thomas Edison made a living selling cigars on trains when he was 11 years old.

    Now, the prevailing "wisdom" is that adulthood doesn't start until almost 30 years old and it seems that most "kids" live with mommy (daddies aren't necessary anymore - they've been replaced by Uncle Sam) way into their 40's.

    A couple of decades ago I noticed that the anti-gun groups and the government, in order to cook statistics, started referring to "children" under the age of 35 when talking about "gun violence" (another term we should never use).

    When society views everyone under 30 as a child, it becomes very hard to get laws passed for campus carry because everyone attending college is viewed as immature. It doesn't help that too many college students reflect this attitude in their behavior.

    /rant off

    Fred

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    Regular Member The Trickster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by azcdlfred View Post
    Being a geezer, when I grew you stopped being a child when you were in your teens, started living on your own at 18 and were considered an adult at 21. And colleges were places where people were expected to act (and dress) like adults.

    A century ago, kids were living and working on their own before their teens. Thomas Edison made a living selling cigars on trains when he was 11 years old.

    Now, the prevailing "wisdom" is that adulthood doesn't start until almost 30 years old and it seems that most "kids" live with mommy (daddies aren't necessary anymore - they've been replaced by Uncle Sam) way into their 40's.

    A couple of decades ago I noticed that the anti-gun groups and the government, in order to cook statistics, started referring to "children" under the age of 35 when talking about "gun violence" (another term we should never use).

    When society views everyone under 30 as a child, it becomes very hard to get laws passed for campus carry because everyone attending college is viewed as immature. It doesn't help that too many college students reflect this attitude in their behavior.

    /rant off

    Fred
    I couldn't have said it better myself. Thank you.

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    Regular Member FreeInAZ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Trickster View Post
    I couldn't have said it better myself. Thank you.
    Quoted for truth! Right on Fred!
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    Regular Member The Trickster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FreeInAZ View Post
    The trick is YOU must sign a student contract that states you will obey their rules (to hell with the constitution), if you refuse to sign you cannot attend. So for reality sake - all colleges are crime empowerment zones, whether state law allows carry or not!
    I love a good Catch-22. We have these rights, which are (supposed to be) safeguarded by the constitutions of the United States and Arizona, yet some goons can use crude loopholes to make us sign them away. Private schools? No problem, I just won't go there. Public schools? Big problem, because I pay government to do its job and circumventing our constitutions is wrong, immoral, unethical, and the complete opposite of the primary function of government, which is the point of its very existence in the first place!

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    Regular Member FreeInAZ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Trickster View Post
    I love a good Catch-22. We have these rights, which are (supposed to be) safeguarded by the constitutions of the United States and Arizona, yet some goons can use crude loopholes to make us sign them away. Private schools? No problem, I just won't go there. Public schools? Big problem, because I pay government to do its job and circumventing our constitutions is wrong, immoral, unethical, and the complete opposite of the primary function of government, which is the point of its very existence in the first place!
    You Sir are wise beyond your years ...
    "The force is strong with this one."

    We risk our Republic becoming a Empire ...
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    “Your beliefs become your thoughts. Your thoughts become your words. Your words become your actions. Your actions become your habits. Your habits become your values. Your values become your destiny.” by Mahatma Gandhi

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    Quote Originally Posted by FreeInAZ View Post
    You Sir are wise beyond your years ...
    "The force is strong with this one."

    We risk our Republic becoming a Empire ...
    Thank you for your kind words.

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    Regular Member azcdlfred's Avatar
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    2 bills have been filed this session dealing with Campus Carry. One for colleges/universities and one for K-12. You can see all the bills AzCDL is monitoring at our Bill Tracking page.

    Fred

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    Regular Member The Trickster's Avatar
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    If anyone is in the know...have there been any documented cases of a student getting caught carrying while on campus? Other than being banned from campus and not getting a refund for tuition, is there really anything they can do (criminally) to the student?

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    I'm not too happy with this. How can a state like Arizona with its very nice laws regarding carry allow schools to still do this. I am about to spend the next four years going to school here and my campus is one of those no gun ones. Hell the staff are pro gun too and were confused why the heck they have a no gun policy. None of them knew it until I asked. Was invited to the website and I found a lot of people from California are attending this college too.....yay.


    *************************************************
    Number: AZ [R] HB 2186 - Updated (Status 03/05/2014)
    Sponsor: Seel
    Title: Community Colleges; Universities; Concealed Weapons
    Abstract: Amending Title 15, chapter 14, Arizona Revised Statutes, by adding article 12; relating to community colleges and universities.
    Status: Prefile - 03/04/2014
    Position: Support

    Probability: Low

    Summary: Would allow college and university faculty members with CCW permits to possess a concealed firearm on campus.

    Comments: 2/21/14 - DEAD. Failed to move before committee hearing deadline.
    Last edited by HolyOrangeJuice; 03-07-2014 at 01:34 AM.

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    Regular Member azcdlfred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HolyOrangeJuice View Post
    I'm not too happy with this.
    Neither are we (AzCDL).

    Unfortunately, the legislature and the governor want nothing to do with Campus Carry this year. But, they used to say the same about Restaurant Carry and Constitutional Carry and we wore them down.

    If you can find any students that will help us next year, including testifying at hearings, maybe we can get their attention. Right now there is no real student involvement with this issue. Makes it harder for us when it's basically a bunch of old guys pushing the issue.

    Fred

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    Regular Member Rusty Young Man's Avatar
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    Welcome to sunny, dry Arizona HolyOrangeJuice!
    I know how you feel, as I've felt that way during my -three years at the U of A down here in Tucson. Beautiful patch of land rendered ugly by an anti-Freedom city council, but I've decided it's worth fighting for.
    AZCDL did A LOT of the work put towards the restoration of the people's Rights here in AZ, but we need every Freedom-loving individual in the state to be active, especially in educating the public about how many Rights of theirs are now licensed as privileges (pun there).
    Don't know which college you'll be attending, but if you're ever in the Tucson area, let me know. Always nice talking to another student who understands the real issue.

    Quote Originally Posted by azcdlfred View Post
    Neither are we (AzCDL).

    Unfortunately, the legislature and the governor want nothing to do with Campus Carry this year. But, they used to say the same about Restaurant Carry and Constitutional Carry and we wore them down.
    /Mini-rant on: It's an election year, and rather than unequivocally support the restoration of people's Rights, they want to pander to the "moderate" crowd. I wonder when it became a mark of "extremism" to demand your Rights, Freedom, and a balanced budget instead of a nanny state. /rant off

    Quote Originally Posted by azcdlfred View Post
    If you can find any students that will help us next year, including testifying at hearings, maybe we can get their attention. Right now there is no real student involvement with this issue. Makes it harder for us when it's basically a bunch of old guys pushing the issue.

    Fred
    The students here are pretty uninvolved in just about anything that doesn't involve free food and/or alcoholic beverages. Just looking at the election turnout for student body government. Not even 5% of the student body voted.
    What happened to the Student 2nd Amendment Union on the UA campus? I know I was out there in the fall of 2013 helping sign people up for their listserv (email list), but they hadn't been able to get a tenured faculty member to be their advisor (untenured professors would be at risk of losing their job in what has become a very Leftist/statist campus). The S2AU FB page is still up though. I'll see if I can't get in touch with them.
    I carry to defend my loved ones; Desensitizing and educating are secondary & tertiary reasons. Anything else is unintended.

    “Life, liberty, and property do not exist because men have made laws. On the contrary, it was the fact that life, liberty, and property existed beforehand that caused men to make laws in the first place.” - Frederic Bastiat

    "When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall one by one, an unpitied sacrifice in a contemptible struggle." - Edmund Burke

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    Regular Member FreeInAZ's Avatar
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    Sadly, while AZ has some great gun laws - it also has some not so good ones. In particular when it comes to schools! In my former state of MI - which is graded with a C by the Brady campaign (they give AZ an F), with a permit one can carry legally in schools (openly) and one may maintain possession of the firearm (cc or oc) while waiting for their child in their car. In AZ must be unloaded and locked up.....

    How to fix these issues.... JOIN AzCDL & send letters to your elected officials! (AzCDL sends alerts & templates free).

    http://azcdl.org/
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    Regular Member azcdlfred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rusty Young Man View Post
    The students here are pretty uninvolved in just about anything that doesn't involve free food and/or alcoholic beverages.
    Sadly, it's not much better with the adult "gun owner" crowd. Even though we (AzCDL) take the "shake it off, put it back in their pants and zip them up" approach with expensive software services that send out pre-written letters to legislators, too many won't expended the energy to click their mouse buttons a few times to send a message to their elected officials, but they'll whine when the bills fail.

    The S2AU FB page is still up though. I'll see if I can't get in touch with them.
    Thanks!

    Fred

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    Quote Originally Posted by azcdlfred View Post
    Neither are we (AzCDL).

    Unfortunately, the legislature and the governor want nothing to do with Campus Carry this year. But, they used to say the same about Restaurant Carry and Constitutional Carry and we wore them down.

    If you can find any students that will help us next year, including testifying at hearings, maybe we can get their attention. Right now there is no real student involvement with this issue. Makes it harder for us when it's basically a bunch of old guys pushing the issue.

    Fred
    We shall see what happens. I'll be starting in August. This college I'll be attending is rated the best in the nation for helping our veterans through school. A lot of current military and veterans are going here. We all have a love for aviation. I'm sure we can find a few that will help.

    I use to open carry when I lived in Wisconsin. Only way we could before conceal carry laws were put into effect. Plus I wasn't 21 at the time. Now that I've been in Texas for a year and a half I just haven't had the time or money to invest into the permit. I mean why should I have to pay several hundred dollars? Where does it say citizens have to pay the government to use rights given in the consitution?

    Almost thinking about getting a blue gun/training firearm to put in my holster on school grounds to prove a point. Now that I'll be in Arizona in just a couple months I'm starting to really read up on everything and gain as much knowledge as I can.

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    Regular Member The Trickster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HolyOrangeJuice View Post
    We shall see what happens. I'll be starting in August. This college I'll be attending is rated the best in the nation for helping our veterans through school. A lot of current military and veterans are going here. We all have a love for aviation. I'm sure we can find a few that will help.

    I use to open carry when I lived in Wisconsin. Only way we could before conceal carry laws were put into effect. Plus I wasn't 21 at the time. Now that I've been in Texas for a year and a half I just haven't had the time or money to invest into the permit. I mean why should I have to pay several hundred dollars? Where does it say citizens have to pay the government to use rights given in the consitution?

    Almost thinking about getting a blue gun/training firearm to put in my holster on school grounds to prove a point. Now that I'll be in Arizona in just a couple months I'm starting to really read up on everything and gain as much knowledge as I can.
    Be careful with anything along these lines because "disrupting a learning institution" is a criminal charge and is so vague that it is easily abused by those with a despotic nature (school administrators). Add in the fact that campus cops and most teachers treat everyone (regardless of their age and life experience) as ignorant children and you have a recipe for disaster. If you read up on everything, it is quite scary as to how much authority the administrators actually have on college campuses, particularly over students. I could see some know-it-all making a big deal about a fake gun and you getting arrested for the aforementioned charge, as well as receiving administrative discipline from the school. Even though it is obviously fake, the claim would be that it caused alarm, panic, a lockdown, etc. and then you're screwed.

    On a side note, I started attending a community college back in January and I was utterly disgusted with the excessive sharing and caring nonsense. I dropped my math class after two sessions because out of a total of four hours, we did maybe 15 minutes of math. The rest of the time was spent getting to know everyone in group projects and other piffle that did not belong in a course designed to study mathematics. I enrolled in a math class to refresh my memory and continue learning actual math, not have a play date session. The teacher also treated everyone like a teenager, which as a 30-year-old man I couldn't tolerate.

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    Regular Member Rusty Young Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HolyOrangeJuice View Post
    Almost thinking about getting a blue gun/training firearm to put in my holster on school grounds to prove a point. Now that I'll be in Arizona in just a couple months I'm starting to really read up on everything and gain as much knowledge as I can.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Trickster View Post
    Be careful with anything along these lines because "disrupting a learning institution" is a criminal charge and is so vague that it is easily abused by those with a despotic nature (school administrators). Add in the fact that campus cops and most teachers treat everyone (regardless of their age and life experience) as ignorant children and you have a recipe for disaster. If you read up on everything, it is quite scary as to how much authority the administrators actually have on college campuses, particularly over students. I could see some know-it-all making a big deal about a fake gun and you getting arrested for the aforementioned charge, as well as receiving administrative discipline from the school. Even though it is obviously fake, the claim would be that it caused alarm, panic, a lockdown, etc. and then you're screwed.
    I would advise against the "blue gun" for the reasons touched upon by The Trickster; Jeffrey Prather (of Warrior School fame, amongst an extensive resume) tried to teach a women's self defense class at the University of Arizona, but was denied the use of precisely those training blue guns "because they're guns" (quoting his anecdote). Very rarely will UAPD (University of Arizona Police Department) and/or the administration approve their use.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Trickster View Post
    SNIP...we did maybe 15 minutes of math. The rest of the time was spent getting to know everyone in group projects and other piffle that did not belong in a course designed to study mathematics.
    Sad to hear that. I've had similar cases where I'd rather not work in touchy-feely group projects.
    I carry to defend my loved ones; Desensitizing and educating are secondary & tertiary reasons. Anything else is unintended.

    “Life, liberty, and property do not exist because men have made laws. On the contrary, it was the fact that life, liberty, and property existed beforehand that caused men to make laws in the first place.” - Frederic Bastiat

    "When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall one by one, an unpitied sacrifice in a contemptible struggle." - Edmund Burke

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Trickster View Post
    Be careful with anything along these lines because "disrupting a learning institution" is a criminal charge and is so vague that it is easily abused by those with a despotic nature (school administrators). Add in the fact that campus cops and most teachers treat everyone (regardless of their age and life experience) as ignorant children and you have a recipe for disaster. If you read up on everything, it is quite scary as to how much authority the administrators actually have on college campuses, particularly over students. I could see some know-it-all making a big deal about a fake gun and you getting arrested for the aforementioned charge, as well as receiving administrative discipline from the school. Even though it is obviously fake, the claim would be that it caused alarm, panic, a lockdown, etc. and then you're screwed.

    On a side note, I started attending a community college back in January and I was utterly disgusted with the excessive sharing and caring nonsense. I dropped my math class after two sessions because out of a total of four hours, we did maybe 15 minutes of math. The rest of the time was spent getting to know everyone in group projects and other piffle that did not belong in a course designed to study mathematics. I enrolled in a math class to refresh my memory and continue learning actual math, not have a play date session. The teacher also treated everyone like a teenager, which as a 30-year-old man I couldn't tolerate.
    Sadly we live in a place where good people can become criminals just because one person decides they need to swing their big stick just because they can. I wish our campus had its own police. Instead we are a large campus that is easily accessible by anyone and our security is also unarmed. At least if we had police response time would be much shorter. Although it doesn't matter if the bad guy is in your class room gunning you down. I don't know how much intelligence it requires to see that gun free zones do absolutely nothing to stop gun violence. Obviously there are plenty of people lacking enough intelligence to see that.

    Yeah I already have 32 college credits and all the B.S. in the beginning is getting to know each other. I didn't pay to get a trip back to grade school and hold your hand. Anyway, appreciate the information gentlemen. While it was just an off the cuff comment it is still mind boggling that we continue to let gun free zones roam around when those mass shootings still happen within them. Hate sitting around feeling defenseless.
    Last edited by HolyOrangeJuice; 06-09-2014 at 08:27 PM.

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