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Thread: Recorders required

  1. #1
    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Recorders required

    I'm extremely concerned about the protocol for handling people with CHP's on Lobby Day.

    More so than anyone else, the Chief answers to the Governor. Hopefully I don't have to go into his mentality.

    In addition to that, the Chief has consulted in depth with Delegate Hope that's putting in bills with intended but hidden consequences and he's putting them in with both the GA and the Joint Rules.

    Add information from an undisclosed source about carry in the building to the Chief, and I suspect they will be bustin a few rules/laws.

    I strongly recommend recorders at the least...and video cameras will be helpful.
    Last edited by peter nap; 01-09-2014 at 06:12 AM.

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    Campaign Veteran T Dubya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    Add TD's inflammatory letter to the Chief and I suspect they will be bustin a few rules/laws.
    I don't think it was inflammatory. Matter of fact the Chief's staff agreed with me and thanked me. Say Peter, I thought we collectively agreed to move on.


    (I keep writing the same thing, my transmissions are hiccuping for some reason)
    Last edited by T Dubya; 01-08-2014 at 11:11 PM. Reason: I'm having technical difficulties, but my post remained the same.
    "These are the shock troops (opencarry.org) of the gun lobby. And, they are not going away."
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    Joint rules actually mean little ~ they can break them at will ~ the breaking of the rule itself indicates an approval of the breaking the rule.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by T Dubya View Post
    I don't think it was inflammatory. Matter of fact the Chief's staff agreed with me and thanked me. Say Peter, I thought we collectively agreed to move on.

    (I keep writing the same thing, my transmissions are hiccuping for some reason)
    Not sure to whom "we collectively" refers, but neither Chief Pike nor his staff have any authority to establish policy or rules beyond their specific authorization. It is not for them to determine with whom they agree or disagree in the performance of their duty.

    I had a few "interesting" reactions/responses to my completely legal and proper carry where there was an attempt to require me go through extra-legal steps today at the GAB. It ended well enough though - think they saw my recorder. No I won't go into details now.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    Joint rules actually mean little ~ they can break them at will ~ the breaking of the rule itself indicates an approval of the breaking the rule.
    Shut up David!

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    TD. perhaps inflammatory was the wrong word and we have moved on....but, spending some time there recently, they have gone into a heightened security status and from the few details I can eek out it's because of information they received concerning carry in the building.

    We may have a Government in the Sunshine but that makes a lot of shadows. The Shadows are where the planning between the Capitol Police and Hope is being done. The two pronged attack on carry in the building is serious matter. The next step will be to have General Services extend it to the grounds.

    But again, you're right and I have edited my post.
    Last edited by peter nap; 01-09-2014 at 06:13 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    TD. perhaps inflammatory was the wrong word and we have moved on....but, spending some time there recently, they have gone into a heightened security status and from the few details I can eek out it's because of information they received concerning carry in the building.

    We may have a Government in the Sunshine but that makes a lot of shadows. The Shadows are where the planning between the Capitol Police and Hope is being done. The two pronged attack on carry in the building is serious matter. The next step will be to have General Services extend it to the grounds.

    But again, you're right and I have edited my post.
    Actually, I think 'inflammatory' was a good word considering the circumstances.

    Just sayin...

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Re: Grapeshot's incident - among other things it involved several supervisory personnel, up to and including the then-Chief of Capitol Police, being asked publically and repeatedly to produce something (anything, actually) in writing to support their claim that the extra-legal [sic] activity was permissable. After repeated requests to read the "policy" they said was behind the activity were denied on the grounds they "could not lay their hands on it" they were repeatedly questions as to whether it is "official policy" or just their opinion that it should be done.

    Gathering a polite crowd and making them deal publically with the issue, as opposed to giving in to their request of "Why don't we step over here and discuss it?" (meaning leave the GAB lobby) resulted in capitulation regarding making anybody else submit to the extra-legal [sic] activity. It was the best result available at the time.

    To those for whom subtle hints do not work - if you think you are being "asked" to do/submit to something inappropriate, speak up before you submit. It is easier to stop them from making you do it than getting it corrected/deleted/expunged afterwards. Keep your voice moderate and your words soft. Do not give them the opportunity to accuse you of or charge you with some criminal violation. Have witnesses - which means using a buddy system or better yet a triad. One stay with you while the other summons spectators/supporters or even The Press.

    Full disclosure - sticking a recorder up to the Chief's face (not agressively or close enough to be worthy of an accusation of assault) every time every time a question was asked may have been a tad over the top. Perhaps just holding the recorder out there might have been more appropriate?

    stay safe.

    PS - Having a concealed recorder as a backup is not paranoia. Having more than three backups might be.
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    Activist Member Wolf_shadow's Avatar
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    What was the original extra legal request. As I am not sure what they can and can't request when we enter.

    Sent from my PantechP9070 using Tapatalk
    Last edited by Wolf_shadow; 01-09-2014 at 09:13 AM.
    Yes I carry a Bible and a Gun, your point.
    Vindiciae Contra Tyrannos (meaning: "A defence of liberty against tyrants")
    Benjamin Franklin said, "A government that does not trust it's citizens with guns is a government that should not be trusted."



  10. #10
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wolf_shadow View Post
    What was the original extra legal request. As I am not sure what they can and can't request when we enter.

    Sent from my PantechP9070 using Tapatalk
    Original demand = those entering the GAB while carry were directed to "sign in" at the security desk w/name, address, make & model gun + where on your body it was carried - ALL extra legal.

    They can request/ask anything they want, but you do not need to comply. The only thing the can properly demand is that you show them your valid permit together w/approved photo ID + wanding for counterband & checking purses and packages for same.

    Note that I said "show", not hand them your permit & ID unless you are willing to be tied up for 5,10,15 minutes while they discuss you.
    Have had my BUG "fondled" by an aggressive officer - that resulted in some fine words re unsafe conduct.

    Generally the security check is a no touch situation and should not be problematic.

    Recorder (w/constant on) are highly recommended and digital video cams will be very much in evidence. Smile a lot and speak in even tones.

    Because of my hearing and speech impediments, I do not attend the lobby groups making the rounds - tend to stay near the west (gun permit) entrance until just before the Bell Tower Rally - look for the skinny ol' phart w/the purdy 1911
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  11. #11
    Campaign Veteran T Dubya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Original demand = those entering the GAB while carry were directed to "sign in" at the security desk w/name, address, make & model gun + where on your body it was carried - ALL extra legal.

    They can request/ask anything they want, but you do not need to comply.
    I gotta tell you, I don't envy them, they got a tough job. They're getting it from all sides. They have target hazards not just for the protection of lawmakers, but for the protection of the large amount of people going in and out of there. The name and address is overly excessive, but whether I do not agree, I do sympathize.

    One scenario I think is not out of the realm of possibilities is for the gun-grabbers to find a nut within their ranks (not at all hard to do) one that is really down for the struggle to go off and purposefully pop a round to discredit gun owners. That would automatically put us on the defense. If I made the rules, here goes....... I would make some form of retention holster for pistols mandatory with all barrels facing the floor, that'd go for LEO too. I was in the elevator several years ago and some nut pulled a single action pistol out of his holster to show someone. I think it was a black powder showpiece. There were others not with us that were in the elevator, I cringed. I regret not saying anything.

    I have kind of digressed a little bit, but whether I may not agree, I do sympathize with them.

    In related news, there is an article today about a Kentucky Lawmaker and a negligent discharge.
    "These are the shock troops (opencarry.org) of the gun lobby. And, they are not going away."
    Ceasefire NJ Director Brian Miller, NJ.com, August 20, 2009

  12. #12
    Regular Member Thundar's Avatar
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    Wow, it worked!

    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    Shut up David!
    It looks like your frontal assault on the "engage keyboard before engaging brain" poster actually worked. Props to you, Peter! Three dancing bananas
    He wore his gun outside his pants for all the honest world to see. Pancho & Lefty

    The millions of people, armed in the holy cause of liberty, and in such a country as that which we possess, are invincible by any force which our enemy can send against us....There is no retreat but in submission and slavery! ...The war is inevitable–and let it come! I repeat it, Sir, let it come …………. PATRICK HENRY speech 1776

  13. #13
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by T Dubya View Post
    I gotta tell you, I don't envy them, they got a tough job. They're getting it from all sides. They have target hazards not just for the protection of lawmakers, but for the protection of the large amount of people going in and out of there. The name and address is overly excessive, but whether I do not agree, I do sympathize.

    One scenario I think is not out of the realm of possibilities is for the gun-grabbers to find a nut within their ranks (not at all hard to do) one that is really down for the struggle to go off and purposefully pop a round to discredit gun owners. That would automatically put us on the defense. If I made the rules, here goes....... I would make some form of retention holster for pistols mandatory with all barrels facing the floor, that'd go for LEO too. I was in the elevator several years ago and some nut pulled a single action pistol out of his holster to show someone. I think it was a black powder showpiece. There were others not with us that were in the elevator, I cringed. I regret not saying anything.

    I have kind of digressed a little bit, but whether I may not agree, I do sympathize with them.

    In related news, there is an article today about a Kentucky Lawmaker and a negligent discharge.
    If SCOTUS says that LEOs do NOT have a duty to protect, why would you think differently?

    If SCOTUS says that how you carry your gun does NOT give RAS of a crime, why would you think differently?

    I do not sympathize with their plight. I can well empythize though - there are rules for both made by the General Assembly only.

    BTW - overly excessive is by any definition possible...............still excessive.

    Unsafe handling/AD/ND can only be eliminated by eliminating guns - an idea to which you are unfortunately contributing in a high profile way. The "Kentuky Lawmaker" and others in that group (legislators) would seem to belong to a group more prone to incidents than the general population, yet no one is suggesting that they be disarmed; I do not suggest that either.

    The GAB has been described as "the people's house"...........not that person's house.....no one can claim ownership authority....it is not private property. We all know (or should know) what gun free zones do. Adding to that helps none of us - it is the big lie.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    Shut up David!
    Quote Originally Posted by Thundar View Post
    It looks like your frontal assault on the "engage keyboard before engaging brain" poster actually worked. Props to you, Peter! Three dancing bananas
    After careful and due deliberation, I have seriously concluded that there has been no personal attack made upon David, but rather an expression of frustration at his posts making light of situations considered important by others - to be point of being frivilous, demeaning, and insulting.

    While exceptions may be made, particularly by the participants, he has quite an extensive history of such. That needs to stop.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Activist Member Wolf_shadow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    After careful and due deliberation, I have seriously concluded that there has been no personal attack made upon David, but rather an expression of frustration at his posts making light of situations considered important by others - to be point of being frivilous, demeaning, and insulting.

    While exceptions may be made, particularly by the participants, he has quite an extensive history of such. That needs to stop.
    +1

    Sent from my PantechP9070 using Tapatalk
    Yes I carry a Bible and a Gun, your point.
    Vindiciae Contra Tyrannos (meaning: "A defence of liberty against tyrants")
    Benjamin Franklin said, "A government that does not trust it's citizens with guns is a government that should not be trusted."



  16. #16
    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    TD. perhaps inflammatory was the wrong word and we have moved on....but, spending some time there recently, they have gone into a heightened security status and from the few details I can eek out it's because of information they received concerning carry in the building.

    We may have a Government in the Sunshine but that makes a lot of shadows. The Shadows are where the planning between the Capitol Police and Hope is being done. The two pronged attack on carry in the building is serious matter. The next step will be to have General Services extend it to the grounds.
    And my first thought upon reading this (bolded quote) is that one of the Haas/Goddard flunkies dropped a dime and said, "Those crazy gun carriers are up to something this year, you better watch out!"

    I'm hard pressed to believe it was anything more substantial than that.



    TFred

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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    If only politicians were as scrutinized as we, by LE.

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    Regular Member scouser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by T Dubya View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Original demand = those entering the GAB while carry were directed to "sign in" at the security desk w/name, address, make & model gun + where on your body it was carried - ALL extra legal.

    They can request/ask anything they want, but you do not need to comply.
    I gotta tell you, I don't envy them, they got a tough job. They're getting it from all sides. They have target hazards not just for the protection of lawmakers, but for the protection of the large amount of people going in and out of there. The name and address is overly excessive, but whether I do not agree, I do sympathize.

    One scenario I think is not out of the realm of possibilities is for the gun-grabbers to find a nut within their ranks (not at all hard to do) one that is really down for the struggle to go off and purposefully pop a round to discredit gun owners. That would automatically put us on the defense. If I made the rules, here goes....... I would make some form of retention holster for pistols mandatory with all barrels facing the floor, that'd go for LEO too. I was in the elevator several years ago and some nut pulled a single action pistol out of his holster to show someone. I think it was a black powder showpiece. There were others not with us that were in the elevator, I cringed. I regret not saying anything.

    I have kind of digressed a little bit, but whether I may not agree, I do sympathize with them.

    In related news, there is an article today about a Kentucky Lawmaker and a negligent discharge.
    I don't sympathize with them one bit. They knew what their job entailed when they applied and/or when they accepted the position. If they don't like having to play by the rules then they shouldn't have taken the job in the first place. It should never be about making things easier for them, in fact things should be as difficult as possible for them to force them to behave themselves. They need to earn sympathy and respect, NOT demand it.

    Isn't one of the rules at OCDO that we do not advocate breaking the law? If we disagree with something we fight to get it corrected but we don't say "oh well we don't like that so we're just going to ignore it". Just because Capitol police might not like a law does not give them an excuse to ignore it

  19. #19
    Regular Member Thundar's Avatar
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    If they bother you for open carry send them to foia hell

    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Not sure to whom "we collectively" refers, but neither Chief Pike nor his staff have any authority to establish policy or rules beyond their specific authorization. It is not for them to determine with whom they agree or disagree in the performance of their duty.

    I had a few "interesting" reactions/responses to my completely legal and proper carry where there was an attempt to require me go through extra-legal steps today at the GAB. It ended well enough though - think they saw my recorder. No I won't go into details now.
    If you have concerns about what Chief Pike and his staff are doing to gun owners you should send them a nice FOIA request. They LOVE FOIA requests. You can also FOIA their reaction to TDubya's "input" and any support or information that the Chief has given to the writing of the Capitol's anti carry bills/rules.
    He wore his gun outside his pants for all the honest world to see. Pancho & Lefty

    The millions of people, armed in the holy cause of liberty, and in such a country as that which we possess, are invincible by any force which our enemy can send against us....There is no retreat but in submission and slavery! ...The war is inevitable–and let it come! I repeat it, Sir, let it come …………. PATRICK HENRY speech 1776

  20. #20
    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Speaking of FOIA....The log in book is FOIAable, so any news organization or anti group that feels like publishing a who's who at the General Assembly....can publish name, address, make and model of the gun and where you carry it.

    This ties in very well with HB102.

    Welcome to 1984 Gentlemen.

  21. #21
    Campaign Veteran T Dubya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Not sure to whom "we collectively" refers,
    Peter suggested we move on on a different thread, somebody
    +1'd him and I am doing like he asked.
    Last edited by T Dubya; 01-09-2014 at 02:14 PM.
    "These are the shock troops (opencarry.org) of the gun lobby. And, they are not going away."
    Ceasefire NJ Director Brian Miller, NJ.com, August 20, 2009

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    Regular Member SAvage410's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    If only politicians were as scrutinized as we, by LE.
    Why yes. We've had our own "lawmaker" unsafely handling firearms in the chamber

    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...rry-at-Capitol

    and now this, from Kentucky:

    http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/k...stake-21467115

    and this from New York:

    http://dailycaller.com/2014/01/06/wh...laser-pointer/

    Seems the police have more to fear from errant legislators and other "officials" than from peaceable citizens.

  23. #23
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    I do not

    Quote Originally Posted by T Dubya View Post
    I gotta tell you, I don't envy them, they got a tough job. They're getting it from all sides. They have target hazards not just for the protection of lawmakers, but for the protection of the large amount of people going in and out of there. The name and address is overly excessive, but whether I do not agree, I do sympathize.

    One scenario I think is not out of the realm of possibilities is for the gun-grabbers to find a nut within their ranks (not at all hard to do) one that is really down for the struggle to go off and purposefully pop a round to discredit gun owners. That would automatically put us on the defense. If I made the rules, here goes....... I would make some form of retention holster for pistols mandatory with all barrels facing the floor, that'd go for LEO too. I was in the elevator several years ago and some nut pulled a single action pistol out of his holster to show someone. I think it was a black powder showpiece. There were others not with us that were in the elevator, I cringed. I regret not saying anything.

    I have kind of digressed a little bit, but whether I may not agree, I do sympathize with them.

    In related news, there is an article today about a Kentucky Lawmaker and a negligent discharge.
    sympathize with them. And you do not make the "rules". Woulda, Coulda, Shoulda have no basis in reality, just memory.

  24. #24
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by T Dubya View Post
    I gotta tell you, I don't envy them, they got a tough job. They're getting it from all sides. They have target hazards not just for the protection of lawmakers, but for the protection of the large amount of people going in and out of there. The name and address is overly excessive, but whether I do not agree, I do sympathize.

    One scenario I think is not out of the realm of possibilities is for the gun-grabbers to find a nut within their ranks (not at all hard to do) one that is really down for the struggle to go off and purposefully pop a round to discredit gun owners. That would automatically put us on the defense. If I made the rules, here goes....... I would make some form of retention holster for pistols mandatory with all barrels facing the floor, that'd go for LEO too. I was in the elevator several years ago and some nut pulled a single action pistol out of his holster to show someone. I think it was a black powder showpiece. There were others not with us that were in the elevator, I cringed. I regret not saying anything.

    I have kind of digressed a little bit, but whether I may not agree, I do sympathize with them.

    In related news, there is an article today about a Kentucky Lawmaker and a negligent discharge.
    A requirement to "register" to access the GAB is a fine example of both prior restraint and coercion/intimidation. The Government has no business tracking my activities in relation to assembling and seeking redress of grievances, with the possible exception of a "speakers list" to control time and keep someone from cutting into the line of citizens patiently waiting to speak. I prefer when they hand out numbers, but few places use that system.

    To suggest that persons with guns are more dangerous, or more likely to become dangerous, than any other group of citizens is an insult that will not be tolerated. On Lobby Day there are groups of folks with serious mental health problems (no, not whatever the current PC term for "retardation" is) that are not subjected to the stigma and paranoid projection that those with guns have been singled out for. Several of those have significant histories of aggressive/assaultive behavior, which I am not aware of among those with guns. Nobody seems to be concerned for the safety of the Capitol Police and the magnatometer workers (mostly retired Capitol Police but certainly not LEO) regarding those folks. Why not?

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
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  25. #25
    Campaign Veteran T Dubya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by va_tazdad View Post
    sympathize with them. And you do not make the "rules". Woulda, Coulda, Shoulda have no basis in reality, just memory.
    What exactly is the point of your post?
    "These are the shock troops (opencarry.org) of the gun lobby. And, they are not going away."
    Ceasefire NJ Director Brian Miller, NJ.com, August 20, 2009

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