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Florida moves ahead with bill legalizing 'warning shots'

Maverick9

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Apr 7, 2013
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Mid-atlantic
i agree 100%. OC offers the visual deterrent without unholstering the weapon. I strongly disagree with un-holstering your weapon to deter a criminal. Once you pull it, you've got to use it because you have escalated the situation and are implying imminent use of deadly force whereas a properly OCed pistol offers the visual deterrent without the escalation.

You've open carried the correct. Once you have drawn, here's what can happen. You can be shot by your 'victim' (which is what the BG becomes when you escalate). You can be shot by the police. You can be shot by another LAC carrying who makes a wrong judgement. So you'd better be shooting and stopping the threat and then putting your gat away and standing down when it's possible. You can be seen and called in as GATTTOTP, or brandishing without cause. You can be targeted as someone who has a firearm and should have it liberated (i.e. stolen).

Now, I'm not saying these things -will- happen. Most of the time they don't. But letting someone fire a warning shot? That's crazy. Now, having a prosecutor who can exercise discretion is something else. In fact even WITH a law like this, a prosecutor can side step it. You can't legislate common sense.
 

Fallschirjmäger

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Cumming, Georgia, USA
i guess we just see it differently. I think it is huge responsibility to carry a firearm. I am not an LEO and therefore cannot draw it to diffuse a situation (that would be brandishing). My CCW instructor told us never to draw if we dont need to pull the trigger to prevent imminent bodily harm or death. I think that if people are encouraged to draw to diffuse situations, there is likely to be a lot more people drawing their firearm when it is not appropriate or when deadly force is not being met with deadly force. I know that's hard to read but for example, if you were to happen across two guys fist fighting, the new law might allow a CCW holder to think it would be ok to brandish or even discharge a round to break up the fight when he/she is not being met with deadly force.

Besides, since i like to pistol shoot and shoot idpa, they're going to have a field day anyway. that's just the world we live in sadly.
Would it? What's the text of the Arkansas Code re 'brandishing'?

It's not me just 'seeing it differently', I'm trying to keep your ass out of prison.

In the world we live in, as I tried to explain, words mean things. If you ever do have to shoot someone, the prosecutor is going to have a field day with the words you posted. He's going to plant the idea in the jury's collective heads that you had malice aforethought when you shot that poor bastid. That's the difference between justified and unjustified homicide. It's also the difference between eating at home and eating institutional food with plastic utensils for a number of years.
4 12 203
 
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WalkingWolf

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Jul 31, 2011
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North Carolina
Any statement on this site that a person will only draw to defend themselves from a threat is not going to hurt their case. On the contrary, a person who posts that they draw as a deterrent, or takes warning shots will most likely be buried if they actually have to use their firearm.

Hopefully when USER has time he will weigh in on this.
 

Firearms Iinstuctor

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Jul 12, 2011
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northern wis
The Sailors have to be taught NO warning shots due to the Secretary of the Navy instruction (SECNAVINST 5500.29) that says so. Warning shots with a rifle or crew-served weapon is authorized against maritime threats.

Razor Max Tapatalk.

So warning shots under certain circumstances could not only a good idea but allowable.
 

notalawyer

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Jun 19, 2012
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Florida
Any statement on this site that a person will only draw to defend themselves from a threat is not going to hurt their case. On the contrary, a person who posts that they draw as a deterrent, or takes warning shots will most likely be buried if they actually have to use their firearm.

Hopefully when USER has time he will weigh in on this.

Well, since in Florida, 'warning shots' are a 20 year minimum mandatory prison sentence without possibility for parole, a reasonable person would refrain from doing so. :uhoh:
 

Primus

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The Sailors have to be taught NO warning shots due to the Secretary of the Navy instruction (SECNAVINST 5500.29) that says so. Warning shots with a rifle or crew-served weapon is authorized against maritime threats.

Razor Max Tapatalk.

No shout show shove shoot shoot shoot?

Shout stop
Show weapon
Shove away
Warning shot
Disable shot (if vehicle, engine block if crew served weapon)
Kill shot

This was standard EOF for us folks in the sand.

Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk
 

Firearms Iinstuctor

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northern wis
Yes. But this is Navy specific. I am also a govt instructor who teaches the high risk courses and we don't teach warning shots.

Razor Max Tapatalk.

I was a LEO instructor for may decades who taught high risk courses also. We taught that warning shots generally are not a good idea and there use should be RARE and INFREQUENT.

But not totally banned, but one does has to follow their own department policy.
 

Fallschirjmäger

Active member
Joined
Aug 4, 2007
Messages
3,823
Location
Cumming, Georgia, USA
Any statement on this site that a person will only draw to defend themselves from a threat is not going to hurt their case. On the contrary, a person who posts that they draw as a deterrent, or takes warning shots will most likely be buried if they actually have to use their firearm.

Hopefully when USER has time he will weigh in on this.
WW, it's not that he said he'd draw only in self-defense, I don't believe anyone on this site would do otherwise.
However, the statement "...Once you pull it, you've got to use it ..." is going to play very, Very BADLY in court should he ever be involved in a self-defense situation. It says quite plainly (and the prosecutor is going to be quite clear to the judge and jury in regards to it) that Kopis, once drawn, is going to commit homicide.

Even if the aggressor throws down his gun, kneels and prays to Jesus, Mohammed, Buddha, and the Flying Spaghetti Monster, Kopis has stated that he'll shoot. That is a very unwise statement to make.

A gun isn't Kukri, it doesn't 'have to taste blood' once drawn.
 
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WalkingWolf

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North Carolina
WW, it's not that he said he'd draw only in self-defense, I don't believe anyone on this site would do otherwise.
However, the statement "...Once you pull it, you've got to use it ..." is going to play very, Very BADLY in court should he ever be involved in a self-defense situation. It says quite plainly (and the prosecutor is going to be quite clear to the judge and jury in regards to it) that Kopis, once drawn, is going to commit homicide.

Even if the aggressor throws down his gun, kneels and prays to Jesus, Mohammed, Buddha, and the Flying Spaghetti Monster, Kopis has stated that he'll shoot. That is a very unwise statement to make.

A gun isn't Kukri, it doesn't 'have to taste blood' once drawn.

If he does not pull it, unless justified, he is in the good, IMO. It is the same thing I have said for a long time, I will only draw my firearm when I intend to shoot to stop a threat. Letting it be known that a person would draw for less than a threat, IMO would only get them in trouble.

There was nothing wrong with his statement.
 

Fallschirjmäger

Active member
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Cumming, Georgia, USA
Everyone is free to think and post as they wish.
But any prosecutor, upon seeing what was written is quite likely to explore premeditated murder in his theory of the case.

Saying, "If I have to pull my gun, I'm going to kill someone with it" is just as indefensible as saying "I shot to kill, not to stop his actions."

Prosecutor, "Ladies and gentleman of the jury, the deceased had dropped his gun as soon as he saw Mr. Kopis begin to reach for his weapon. He was no threat to Mr. Kopis. Mr. Kopis commited premeditated murder against the deceased. He had planned to do this. I have proof, written in his own words, that he planned to kill. He wrote that if he ever had to draw his gun he was going to use it. He was anxiously looking forward to cutting the first of many notches into his gun. I will prove to the jury that Mr. Kopis was not acting in self-defense but was instead a crazy, vigilante, who's mouth was watering at the prospect of taking a life."

I don't know about you guys, but I'm not providing the ammunition for my own execution in a moment of interweb bravado.
 
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WalkingWolf

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Jul 31, 2011
Messages
11,930
Location
North Carolina
i agree 100%. OC offers the visual deterrent without unholstering the weapon. I strongly disagree with unholstering your weapon to deter a criminal. Once you pull it, you've got to use it because you have escalated the situation and are implying imminent use of deadly force whereas a properly OCed pistol offers the visual deterrent without the escalation.

From the NRA;


1. ALWAYS keep the gun pointed in a safe direction.
This is the primary rule of gun safety. A safe direction means that the gun is pointed so that even if it were to go off it would not cause injury or damage. The key to this rule is to control where the muzzle or front end of the barrel is pointed at all times. Common sense dictates the safest direction, depending on different circumstances.

2. ALWAYS keep your finger off the trigger until ready to shoot.
When holding a gun, rest your finger on the trigger guard or along the side of the gun. Until you are actually ready to fire, do not touch the trigger


Jeff Cooper;

All guns are always loaded.
Never let the muzzle cover anything you are not willing to destroy.
Keep your finger off the trigger until your sights are on the target.
Be sure of your target and what is beyond it.


Pull your gun to prove a point and the above will be used against you in a court of law. Police have different standards, but Jeff Cooper is recognize as a expert, and NRA is recognized as a accepted firearms training.
 

MackTheKnife

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 10, 2007
Messages
198
Location
Jacksonville, Florida
No shout show shove shoot shoot shoot?

Shout stop
Show weapon
Shove away
Warning shot
Disable shot (if vehicle, engine block if crew served weapon)
Kill shot

This was standard EOF for us folks in the sand.

Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk

We teach the Use of Force Continuum, with Deadly Force being Level 6. It's up to them whether or not to attempt a lesser means such as a verbal warning, OC, baton, etc.

Sent from my KFTT using Tapatalk 2
 

WalkingWolf

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 31, 2011
Messages
11,930
Location
North Carolina
No shout show shove shoot shoot shoot?

Shout stop
Show weapon
Shove away
Warning shot
Disable shot (if vehicle, engine block if crew served weapon)
Kill shot

This was standard EOF for us folks in the sand.

Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk

Please provide a link and cite for this ROE? Give me a while to stop laughing first though. I never heard of soldiers in a combat situation shouting stop and showing weapon. Unless they were on guard duty, like a dorm guard, and there is no weapon involved, sorry but I am still laughing.

Sounds like a perfect mix to a purple heart, great if that is what you are looking for...:lol:
 

Primus

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Joined
Oct 24, 2013
Messages
3,939
Location
United States
Please provide a link and cite for this ROE? Give me a while to stop laughing first though. I never heard of soldiers in a combat situation shouting stop and showing weapon. Unless they were on guard duty, like a dorm guard, and there is no weapon involved, sorry but I am still laughing.

Sounds like a perfect mix to a purple heart, great if that is what you are looking for...:lol:

Ww its EOF not ROE. ROE is rules of engagement. The overall rules for that area. EOF is escalation of force.

It really doesn't matter what you have ever "heard of". Your not all knowing. Unless you've been in the military in the last 10 years and unless you've deployed to a combat zone you probably haven't heard it. Kick rocks.

Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk
 

WalkingWolf

Regular Member
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Jul 31, 2011
Messages
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North Carolina
Ww its EOF not ROE. ROE is rules of engagement. The overall rules for that area. EOF is escalation of force.

It really doesn't matter what you have ever "heard of". Your not all knowing. Unless you've been in the military in the last 10 years and unless you've deployed to a combat zone you probably haven't heard it. Kick rocks.

Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk

Provide the cites, otherwise you may have well made it up.:rolleyes:

And keep in mind we are talking NON soldiers here, but it is nothing for you to off on a tangent. It is expected of you.
 
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Primus

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 24, 2013
Messages
3,939
Location
United States
When I'm instructing new sailors with firearms, the question of "warning shots" always comes up. This is what I tell them. "There is no such thing as a warning shot with small arms. If you find yourself in a situation where Deadly Force is necessary, the warning is verbal and your gun is drawn. The bad guy has 2 choices at that point....stop what they are doing....or get shot....period."

The bad guy makes that decision for me. Whether I pull the trigger or not is up to him. But once I pull trigger, I, ME, MYSELF....is responsible for that round and what it hits. This proposed bill is complete and utter GARBAGE!!!!

Just my $0.02.

Yes. But this is Navy specific. I am also a govt instructor who teaches the high risk courses and we don't teach warning shots.

Razor Max Tapatalk.

No shout show shove shoot shoot shoot?

Shout stop
Show weapon
Shove away
Warning shot
Disable shot (if vehicle, engine block if crew served weapon)
Kill shot

This was standard EOF for us folks in the sand.

Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk

Walking wolf I don't know nor care what YOU were talking about but a few of us were talking about Navy sailors. Its a shame you stepped in.

You can easily type in escalation if force army in Google. A friggin army study guide thing just popped up with it.

Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk
 

WalkingWolf

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 31, 2011
Messages
11,930
Location
North Carolina
Please provide a actual cite to your claim, otherwise it is BS!:rolleyes:

From Wiki which IMO is not a cite, but it is much much more than anything you ever provided.

Rules of Engagement (ROE) are rules or directives to military forces (including individuals) that define the circumstances, conditions, degree, and manner in which force, or actions which might be construed as provocative, may be applied.[1] They provide authorization for and/or limits on, among other things, the use of force and the employment of certain specific capabilities. In some nations, ROE have the status of guidance to military forces, while in other nations, ROE are lawful commands. Rules of Engagement do not normally dictate how a result is to be achieved but will indicate what measures may be unacceptable.[2]
While ROE are used in both domestic and international operations by most militaries, in the United States, ROE are not used for domestic operations. Instead, use of force by US forces in such situations is governed by Rules for the Use of Force (RUF).
An abbreviated description of the Rules of Engagement may be issued to all personnel. Commonly referred to as an "ROE Card", this document provides the soldier with a summary of the ROE regulating the use of force for a particular mission.[3]


Did you even make it out of basic training? Clearly by your misuse of terminology you were not overseas.

I suggest getting out of your parents basement and getting a breath of fresh air...
 
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