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Florida moves ahead with bill legalizing 'warning shots'

MackTheKnife

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Location
Jacksonville, Florida
Wow. Gotta love it when it gets to personal attacks. Adds some fun to the discussion of the topic! There are different names for the same thing between the branches. The Navy calls it the Use of Force Continuum (6 levels). RUF is probably the Army equivalent. In any event, warning shots are usually prohibited except as in my previous post. Sorry, no cite.

Razor Max Tapatalk.
 

Primus

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No shout show shove shoot shoot shoot?

Shout stop
Show weapon
Shove away
Warning shot
Disable shot (if vehicle, engine block if crew served weapon)
Kill shot

This was standard EOF for us folks in the sand.

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We teach the Use of Force Continuum, with Deadly Force being Level 6. It's up to them whether or not to attempt a lesser means such as a verbal warning, OC, baton, etc.

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Please provide a link and cite for this ROE? Give me a while to stop laughing first though. I never heard of soldiers in a combat situation shouting stop and showing weapon. Unless they were on guard duty, like a dorm guard, and there is no weapon involved, sorry but I am still laughing.

Sounds like a perfect mix to a purple heart, great if that is what you are looking for...:lol:

Ww its EOF not ROE. ROE is rules of engagement. The overall rules for that area. EOF is escalation of force.

It really doesn't matter what you have ever "heard of". Your not all knowing. Unless you've been in the military in the last 10 years and unless you've deployed to a combat zone you probably haven't heard it. Kick rocks.

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Please provide a actual cite to your claim, otherwise it is BS!:rolleyes:

From Wiki which IMO is not a cite, but it is much much more than anything you ever provided.

Rules of Engagement (ROE) are rules or directives to military forces (including individuals) that define the circumstances, conditions, degree, and manner in which force, or actions which might be construed as provocative, may be applied.[1] They provide authorization for and/or limits on, among other things, the use of force and the employment of certain specific capabilities. In some nations, ROE have the status of guidance to military forces, while in other nations, ROE are lawful commands. Rules of Engagement do not normally dictate how a result is to be achieved but will indicate what measures may be unacceptable.[2]
While ROE are used in both domestic and international operations by most militaries, in the United States, ROE are not used for domestic operations. Instead, use of force by US forces in such situations is governed by Rules for the Use of Force (RUF).
An abbreviated description of the Rules of Engagement may be issued to all personnel. Commonly referred to as an "ROE Card", this document provides the soldier with a summary of the ROE regulating the use of force for a particular mission.[3]


Did you even make it out of basic training? Clearly by your misuse of terminology you were not overseas.

I suggest getting out of your parents basement and getting a breath of fresh air...

First and foremost..... WE WERE TALKING ABOUT ESCALATION OF FORCE (EOF) NOT RULES OF ENGAGEMENT. So you your entire last post is garbage. As usual. YOU brought the ROE to the table. We didn't. I bolded ME talking about EOF and YOU talking about ROE. I also bolded ME EXPLAINING EOF IS NOT ROE. So in response you cite more ROE stuff and attack me about it.

Second.... http://www.loc.gov/rr/frd/Military_Law/pdf/04-2008.pdf

In a scenario like the one above, traditional EOF was most often applied using the five S’s (Shout, Show, Shove, Shoot,
Shoot)
(Fig. 1).12 Once the crowd demonstrated hostile intent or a committed hostile act, the squad would shout commands at
the crowd to stop their actions and go home. If that failed to stop their threatening actions, the squad would then show their
weapons and demonstrate their intent to use them. If that failed to pacify the crowd, the Soldiers would be authorized to
shove the crowd back or use other non-lethal means. If this also failed to counter the threat, the Soldiers could then fire a
warning shot. Finally, as a last resort having exhausted all other options, the squad could fire shots to eliminate specific
threats within the crowd. Most of the ROE that contain the Shout, Show, Shove, Shoot, Shoot provisions also stated that if
there was an immediate threat of serious injury or death, Soldiers could defend themselves or others without going through
the progressive steps.13


http://www.armystudyguide.com/conte..._common_tasks/1713000011-employ-progres.shtml

Employ Progressive Levels of Individual Force When Confronting Civilians <-------------- ESCALATION OF FORCE

Assess the situation by identifying the level of hostile civilian threat.
a. Verbal. <------- SHOUT

b. Physical without weapons (touching, pushing). <------ SHOVE

c. Physical with weapons (rocks, clubs, spitting).

d. Physical with firearms shown. <------- SHOW

e. Physical with firearms used. <------SHOOT


http://www.fas.org/irp/doddir/army/bct.pdf

Last link is a smart card they give out to soldiers look at bottom middle... EOF ESCALTION OF FORCE.....

Has it sunk in yet WW? Need more cites? I've cited army manuals, a army law document and army study guide. ROE IS NOT EOF. EOF is just one part of the ROE for the area. The ROE can be any rule the commander of that battle space puts out. For example, part of my tour I was in downtown Baghadad. My team was not allowed to use .50 cals nor Mark 19s. Too much collateral damage downtown. That was a RULE that the battle space commander put out. But we still followed EOF. I still had flare pens in my turret. Some other guys actually had lasers to shine on peoples windshields.

The one we used was Shout (yell for them to stop) Show (weapon either point at them or show them the weapon) Shove (if we were on foot) Shoot (warning shot if able to ) Shoot - Disable (only vehicles obviously, .50 through engine area) Shoot- person (till they stop becoming a threat). You'll find a few different variations depending on the Unit SOP.
 

2OLD2W8

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Joined
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Messages
138
Location
Black Waters
War is not like it used to be..

ROE are constantly changing as this nation moves forward, war is not the same as a political intervention.
 

WalkingWolf

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Joined
Jul 31, 2011
Messages
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Location
North Carolina
First and foremost..... WE WERE TALKING ABOUT ESCALATION OF FORCE (EOF) NOT RULES OF ENGAGEMENT. So you your entire last post is garbage. As usual. YOU brought the ROE to the table. We didn't. I bolded ME talking about EOF and YOU talking about ROE. I also bolded ME EXPLAINING EOF IS NOT ROE. So in response you cite more ROE stuff and attack me about it.

Second.... http://www.loc.gov/rr/frd/Military_Law/pdf/04-2008.pdf

In a scenario like the one above, traditional EOF was most often applied using the five S’s (Shout, Show, Shove, Shoot,
Shoot)
(Fig. 1).12 Once the crowd demonstrated hostile intent or a committed hostile act, the squad would shout commands at
the crowd to stop their actions and go home. If that failed to stop their threatening actions, the squad would then show their
weapons and demonstrate their intent to use them. If that failed to pacify the crowd, the Soldiers would be authorized to
shove the crowd back or use other non-lethal means. If this also failed to counter the threat, the Soldiers could then fire a
warning shot. Finally, as a last resort having exhausted all other options, the squad could fire shots to eliminate specific
threats within the crowd. Most of the ROE that contain the Shout, Show, Shove, Shoot, Shoot provisions also stated that if
there was an immediate threat of serious injury or death, Soldiers could defend themselves or others without going through
the progressive steps.13


http://www.armystudyguide.com/conte..._common_tasks/1713000011-employ-progres.shtml

Employ Progressive Levels of Individual Force When Confronting Civilians <-------------- ESCALATION OF FORCE

Assess the situation by identifying the level of hostile civilian threat.
a. Verbal. <------- SHOUT

b. Physical without weapons (touching, pushing). <------ SHOVE

c. Physical with weapons (rocks, clubs, spitting).

d. Physical with firearms shown. <------- SHOW

e. Physical with firearms used. <------SHOOT


http://www.fas.org/irp/doddir/army/bct.pdf

Last link is a smart card they give out to soldiers look at bottom middle... EOF ESCALTION OF FORCE.....

Has it sunk in yet WW? Need more cites? I've cited army manuals, a army law document and army study guide. ROE IS NOT EOF. EOF is just one part of the ROE for the area. The ROE can be any rule the commander of that battle space puts out. For example, part of my tour I was in downtown Baghadad. My team was not allowed to use .50 cals nor Mark 19s. Too much collateral damage downtown. That was a RULE that the battle space commander put out. But we still followed EOF. I still had flare pens in my turret. Some other guys actually had lasers to shine on peoples windshields.

The one we used was Shout (yell for them to stop) Show (weapon either point at them or show them the weapon) Shove (if we were on foot) Shoot (warning shot if able to ) Shoot - Disable (only vehicles obviously, .50 through engine area) Shoot- person (till they stop becoming a threat). You'll find a few different variations depending on the Unit SOP.

What the hell does that have to do with CIVILIAN, CITIZEN, IN THE UNITED STATES? Has it sunk in yet, another stupid diversion by you?
 
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WalkingWolf

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Messages
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Location
North Carolina
How about you guys taking your stupid, childish, bickering, off-topic posts elsewhere? Mmmkay?

How about if you don't like it, don't read it. I did not bring the off topic to this discussion, and I pointed it out that it is off topic. This is not about military use of force. When someone posts BS I will call them out. Again if you don't like it use the ignore function.
 

Primus

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Oct 24, 2013
Messages
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Location
United States
What the hell does that have to do with CIVILIAN, CITIZEN, IN THE UNITED STATES? Has it sunk in yet, another stupid diversion by you?

That's your fall back? After you insulted me multiple times over something I wasnt talking about?

First I didnt bring it up. Another service member brought up how he trained his guys. I asked HIM a side bar question. He responded. You blew this up into personal insults over something you were wrong about.

For example asserting I hadn't deployed since my terminology wasn't correct. It actually was quite correct. I spent long enough in that s**** hole to know what I'm talking about.

Instead of Manning up and apologizing for YOUR f**** up (confusing roe with EOF) you'll fall back and try and blame me for the "diversion".

Second since YOUR asking what this has to do with civilians in the us its still a technique u can use. Shout..... "hey dude get away from me I'm armed" Show . ...... if concealed raise jacket...... Shove..... push someone away if they are being aggressive...... shoot . ...... holy crap there's a bill in Florida about warning shots! And finally shoot to stop.

Your blinded by hatred and arrogance so much you failed to see u fabricated this entire attack on me and did way more to divert it then the other person and I ever did.

Don't worry I won't hold my breath waiting for you to grow the intestinal fortitude to admit you were wrong and shouldn't have insulted me.

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MackTheKnife

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Joined
Oct 10, 2007
Messages
198
Location
Jacksonville, Florida
ROE are constantly changing as this nation moves forward, war is not the same as a political intervention.

Huh? What are you trying to convey here? Don't understand. As for ROE, CJCS ROE is the Standing ROE while there are numerous Supplemental ROEs depending on location. But all of this discussion on ROE is off topic.

Razor Max Tapatalk.
 

WalkingWolf

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 31, 2011
Messages
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Location
North Carolina
That's your fall back? After you insulted me multiple times over something I wasnt talking about?

First I didnt bring it up. Another service member brought up how he trained his guys. I asked HIM a side bar question. He responded. You blew this up into personal insults over something you were wrong about.

For example asserting I hadn't deployed since my terminology wasn't correct. It actually was quite correct. I spent long enough in that s**** hole to know what I'm talking about.

Instead of Manning up and apologizing for YOUR f**** up (confusing roe with EOF) you'll fall back and try and blame me for the "diversion".

Second since YOUR asking what this has to do with civilians in the us its still a technique u can use. Shout..... "hey dude get away from me I'm armed" Show . ...... if concealed raise jacket...... Shove..... push someone away if they are being aggressive...... shoot . ...... holy crap there's a bill in Florida about warning shots! And finally shoot to stop.

Your blinded by hatred and arrogance so much you failed to see u fabricated this entire attack on me and did way more to divert it then the other person and I ever did.

Don't worry I won't hold my breath waiting for you to grow the intestinal fortitude to admit you were wrong and shouldn't have insulted me.

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I don't read carp so you needn't waste your time. The topic is not and never has been about the military anywhere let alone the middle east. It was a diversion by you because apparently you cannot back your claims with on topic cites. What if you posted something other than your fantasies.

If you expose your firearm at this date and time in Florida you probably will go to jail. If you actually are under attack and play games you probably will get hurt. If you pull it in NC you will be charged with GATTTOP if you make any such comment that you are armed if you are not clearly justified. If you are justified and play games you probably will get hurt.

YOUR advice has been and always is not intelligent and very very bad.

You remind of the Forest Gump quote...
 
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Primus

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Messages
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I don't read carp so you needn't waste your time. The topic is not and never has been about the military anywhere let alone the middle east. It was a diversion by you because apparently you cannot back your claims with on topic cites. What if you posted something other than your fantasies.

If you expose your firearm at this date and time in Florida you probably will go to jail. If you actually are under attack and play games you probably will get hurt. If you pull it in NC you will be charged with GATTTOP if you make any such comment that you are armed if you are not clearly justified. If you are justified and play games you probably will get hurt.

YOUR advice has been and always is not intelligent and very very bad.

You remind of the Forest Gump quote...

Lol ok walkingwolf I still love you even when you act like a child. I'll let you continue to argue with yourself. I've explained to you what EOF is you can argue on your own if, when, and how it can be used in the US.

When you feel like manning up and apologizing (as basically every one else does) you can pm me. If not so be it I wouldn't expect that much from you at this point in time.

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notalawyer

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Jun 19, 2012
Messages
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Location
Florida
How about if you don't like it, don't read it. I did not bring the off topic to this discussion, and I pointed it out that it is off topic. This is not about military use of force. When someone posts BS I will call them out. Again if you don't like it use the ignore function.

How about being a grown up and take your petty bickering elsewhere, like the ladies room where it belongs! :cool:
 

notalawyer

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Florida
Lol ok walkingwolf I still love you even when you act like a child. I'll let you continue to argue with yourself. I've explained to you what EOF is you can argue on your own if, when, and how it can be used in the US.

When you feel like manning up and apologizing (as basically every one else does) you can pm me. If not so be it I wouldn't expect that much from you at this point in time.

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How about you go join your childhood friend, elsewhere?
 

WalkingWolf

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Lol ok walkingwolf I still love you even when you act like a child. I'll let you continue to argue with yourself. I've explained to you what EOF is you can argue on your own if, when, and how it can be used in the US.

When you feel like manning up and apologizing (as basically every one else does) you can pm me. If not so be it I wouldn't expect that much from you at this point in time.

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Go pound sand! You attempt to derail every thread with off topic BS you post in. Don't be so ignorant to make demands of others where you have absolutely no authority. It is dumb!
 

MarlboroLts5150

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Messages
407
Location
San Antonio
When I'm instructing new sailors with firearms, the question of "warning shots" always comes up. This is what I tell them. "There is no such thing as a warning shot with small arms. If you find yourself in a situation where Deadly Force is necessary, the warning is verbal and your gun is drawn. The bad guy has 2 choices at that point....stop what they are doing....or get shot....period."

The bad guy makes that decision for me. Whether I pull the trigger or not is up to him. But once I pull trigger, I, ME, MYSELF....is responsible for that round and what it hits. This proposed bill is complete and utter GARBAGE!!!!

Just my $0.02.

Gonna jump in here, just to clarify my post due to a few PM's I got, and after reading through this thread. Obviously, when I'm instructing in the capacity of a military instructor, I go by the current instruction. Drawing your weapon is an escalation of force. NOWHERE does it say in ANY instruction that if you draw your weapon you HAVE to fire.

I also teach people away from the military, to include my guys who want to carry off base. My train of thought is, in the real world, nothing says that I have to pull the trigger if I've drawn my gun. More often than not, simply the display of a weapon is more than enough to diffuse what could ultimately be a tragic situation. This is why I DO NOT believe in the use of a "warning shot". I'm ultimately responsible for that round when it leaves my gun. NO WAY am I going to take a chance that a "warning shot" isn't going to hit someone not intended. Ricochet off a rock, or whatever.....me, personally....I ain't taking that chance. If I fire my weapon, it is at the intended target, and ONLY to stop the threat.

And a Warning Shot for us when we are out to sea is to determine INTENT of an approaching vessel, AFTER all lesser means of determining intent have failed. Then, and ONLY then, when ordered by the OIC, and only with approved weapons. Not small arms.

Carry on, and stay safe.
 

WalkingWolf

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In Florida the display of a handgun IS illegal, that is what this thread is about. A law is being considered to allow DISCHARGING a firearm as a threat. The military does not have anything to do with it. Drawing a weapon and pointing it at somebody is deadly force whether the trigger is pulled or not. A person is either justified or not. If they are not they are subject to losing in a court of law for state crimes. If they are they are then pulling for affect once ACTUALLY facing a threat of death or great bodily harm is STUPID, IMO.

I can't speak for others only myself, but if some idiot pulls a gun on me for effect, I will use the force necessary to stop the threat, including deadly force. Advice IMO to brandish or shoot warnings shots is just downright stupid.

If Florida makes another unnecessary law to cover for a dumb law the legislators are idiots, but then progressives usually are. If I have to pull my gun other than the range, store, or maintenance. YES I have to use it if I am in a situation where I have to use it to survive. Carrying a gun is a right not a my tallywhacker is bigger than your tallywhacker game.

YOU are either justified or you are not, if not the person you are drawing on has every right to shoot first. I am glad most people are not dumb enough to waive around firearms willy nilly, at least here.
 

OC for ME

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It seems that GZ should have also been charged with the "display" of a firearm while committing a felony, as well as 2nd degree murder, no?

If you are justified, as was GZ, then this proposed law is not needed. I, and I alone, will decide if a trigger pull is required. The consequences of that decision are also mine, and mine alone.

Friday morning quarterbacking is worse than Monday morning quarterbacking. Responsible folks hold themselves accountable for their own acts.
 

Grapeshot

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--snipped--

If you expose your firearm at this date and time in Florida you probably will go to jail. If you actually are under attack and play games you probably will get hurt. If you pull it in NC you will be charged with GATTTOP if you make any such comment that you are armed if you are not clearly justified. If you are justified and play games you probably will get hurt.
Momentary display of gun is not the problem it once was in Florida:
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/2737727/posts
 

Grapeshot

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It is decidedly better to avoid trainwrecking a thread - leave the personal attacks outside please.
 

Primus

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Momentary display of gun is not the problem it once was in Florida:
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/2737727/posts

Good find. I thought Florida was pretty pro self defense with the stand your ground law being on the books.

This law is written for that purpose to be able yo show the "aggressor" you are armed so hopefully he'll knock it off. Especially since its in concealment you don't have that deterrent of open carry. So you need to at least pull your outer garment away so they can see there is a firearm. Coupled with ",get away from me I am armed" while gaining distance might help.

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