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Thread: Another officer "takes the bait"

  1. #1
    Regular Member stealthyeliminator's Avatar
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    Another officer "takes the bait"

    It would seem that Austin PD are increasingly welcoming toward, or at least increasingly tolerant of, regular open carry. Here an officer actually takes the time to chat it up a little while. Was he just humoring them? We don't know, but who cares! Rights are being respected, at least in practice, regardless of any officer's personal opinion. Which is the way it should be.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vdJ8pjKmIQU

    Contrary to the title, bait was not cast this day.
    Last edited by stealthyeliminator; 01-10-2014 at 09:36 PM.
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    I disagree with the youtube poster's assessment as good.

    Two points:

    1. The first words of the cop portion of the video are "...called. I'm just checking you out." Fail. Police can observe from a distance. No need to contact anybody. Dispatchers should be asking callers, "What are they doing with the rifles? Are the rifles slung over their shoulders? Oh, well, ma'am, that's perfectly legal."

    2. The true test is not how the cop behaves when he gets cooperation. The true test is how the cop behaves when rights are exercised to the limit. "No, offense, officer, but I do not consent to an encounter with you."

    The OC movement discovered long ago that some police are totally willing to violate the 4th Amendment while mouthing respectful sounds for the 2nd. If we only recognize when police respect the 2nd Amendment, we leave somewhat twisting in the wind all the non-OCers who receive unjustified identity demands, demands phrased as requests, badgering about why they don't want to answer questions, badgering about why they withhold consent to a search.

    The video may show an improvement for Austin PD. But, its not nearly acceptable.

    And, who knows? maybe its just that one cop.*



    *If generalizing against cops is wrong, then surely generalizing in support is just as bad.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  3. #3
    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    I have to agree that he did an excellent job.

    Is there some departmental policy that an officer has no First Amendment right to engage in voluntary conversation while on the job?

    Certainly he could have just done the mall-cop "observe and report" thing, and maybe he sat there for a moment, or a minute, or ten or an hour. Maybe he said to himself, "There are far, far too many videos on YouTube of people in my profession being asshats. I think I'll go over there. I'll be friendly, I'll be engaging, I'll support those people and make me and my department look pretty dang good in comparison."

    Edit: 2:35 He.. .shook someone's hand? Right/gun hand to right/gun hand? OMFBJ

    This is everything the Open Carry Movement* is about; showing the public that they shouldn't be afraid, educating the public (including the police) that openly carried arms are not a threat to their safety.

    * as opposed to merely carrying openly as one goes about their business as usual. Of course, they Are going about their business as usual, but they are acting as ambassadors of good will as well.
    Last edited by Fallschirmjäger; 01-10-2014 at 11:53 PM.

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    Hi Folks.

    No bait whats so ever on the part of the citizens exercising their right to keep an bear arms.. Also a decent job by Officer Dale, however, Officer Dale need not be applauded for simply knowing his job... Think of the situation in terms of a defensive player in a football game. The defensive player in this case Officer Dale, makes a great tackle, then the crowd and or officer dale proceeds to celebrate the tackle, all the while his team is losing by (3) touchdowns... The effort should be noted however not applauded or celebrated. Officers Dale's reaction to the encounter should be standard operating procedure for all LEO encountering LAC, his reaction should not be glorified in any way shape or form... His reaction should be the Norm not the acceptation...

    My .02

    Thank you and best regards.

    CCJ
    " I detest hypocrites and their Hypocrisy" I support Liberty for each, for all, and forever".
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  5. #5
    Regular Member stealthyeliminator's Avatar
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    Well, there are several other things to note about this video. First, the officer made no attempt to identify any of the group. Didn't ask for ID, names, etc. even though many many many time cops will say it's their 'policy' to ID everyone that they even talk to (which I think is a blatant lie more often than not, could be wrong). Secondly, it appeared to me, though I could be wrong, as though the primary reason he came up was to make contact with the caller(s), as you note that he broke away from conversation to go inside.

    The main problem I have with the video is parking his car, lights on, in the road. Maybe there were no spaces available when he pulled up, I don't know, but I don't see how potentially impeding traffic to respond to a non-call, which he knew was a non-call, is a good idea. But, that may be pushing the criticism pretty far.

    Another thing to consider is that, while the officer could have potentially responded "better", the OCers could have "responded better" as well. The entire encounter was obviously very consensual on the part of the OCers and in fact, they pretty much initiated and drove the entire conversation and even pulled the officer further into conversation when he started to leave. In some other videos, they even initiate contact with officers who otherwise would have not given them a second look. I understand that it's probably the result of trying to establish a sort of 'working relationship' with as many members of the PD as possible, which is fine. The main thing is that you can't hang encounters on the officers when much of the time the OCers are actually initiating the contacts. Of course, they didn't in this particular case, but again, obviously consensual.

    So, really, I don't think the officer pushed any lines...

    So yes, could get better, but a big improvement!

    On a side note, isn't it amazing that this could happen downtown Austin, and then if you accidentally were to make your way onto the capital grounds you could be arrested for the exact same behavior?
    Advocate freedom please

  6. #6
    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Are there any videos of a OCer walking up to a cop to initiate a encounter?

    Sheeze, the contortions some folks will go.

    When a cop walks up to a OCer he initiates a contact with a citizen. After that the "consensual" part starts. There is nothing consensual about a cop walking up to a OCer. And no, cops do not have a "right' to walk up to a LAC in the course of their duties when no criminal behavior is displayed. The cop should have observed and reported.

    If the cop would have had a cup of coffee and a doughnut in hand, I would not hesitate to chat it up with him. Lights and blocking traffic, well, he ain't here looking for advice on buying a new firearm.

  7. #7
    Regular Member stealthyeliminator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    Are there any videos of a OCer walking up to a cop to initiate a encounter?

    Sheeze, the contortions some folks will go.

    When a cop walks up to a OCer he initiates a contact with a citizen. After that the "consensual" part starts. There is nothing consensual about a cop walking up to a OCer. And no, cops do not have a "right' to walk up to a LAC in the course of their duties when no criminal behavior is displayed. The cop should have observed and reported.

    If the cop would have had a cup of coffee and a doughnut in hand, I would not hesitate to chat it up with him. Lights and blocking traffic, well, he ain't here looking for advice on buying a new firearm.
    If this is all directed toward me, it would seem I might have struck a nerve. If so, I didn't mean to. I feel like the choir being preached to a little here.

    To your question, yes, I can provide that for you. I probably should have went ahead and linked to it when I mentioned it. Laziness on my part. I believe this video leads up to the one in the OP. I believe in the video in the OP he references the instance which I am directing you to here.. http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/42185102 Skip to about the 5 minute mark. In this instance, they see an officer on a bicycle stop at a red light. One of the OCers walks over to talk to him. The officer doesn't really stop to talk, and moves on when the light changes. I'm not going to say that the OCer did anything "wrong" but I probably would have just kept walking on my walk.

    The entire video is kind of long, but it's not that bad. You can see that there are some people who not only show no fear of the firearms being openly carried, but in fact become quite interested in the cause when they see the group.
    Advocate freedom please

  8. #8
    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    I must politely disagree with OC for Me
    Are there any videos of a OCer walking up to a cop to initiate a encounter?

    Sheeze, the contortions some folks will go.

    When a cop walks up to a OCer he initiates a contact with a citizen. After that the "consensual" part starts. There is nothing consensual about a cop walking up to a OCer. And no, cops do not have a "right' to walk up to a LAC in the course of their duties when no criminal behavior is displayed. The cop should have observed and reported.

    If the cop would have had a cup of coffee and a doughnut in hand, I would not hesitate to chat it up with him. Lights and blocking traffic, well, he ain't here looking for advice on buying a new firearm.
    An officer can walk up and initiate a voluntary conversation with someone openly carrying. He can do the same with a lady pushing a stroller or someone playing Frisbee with their dog. No, it doesn't happen often, but it certainly can happen.
    An officer has every 'right' to walk up to you and wish you a pleasant day or ask 'is it hot enough for ya?" that you have to ask him the same. As long as you do not feel obligated to respond or feel like your freedom to leave is restrained it remains a consensual contact.

    Should a drawn firearm make an appearance, or a command or interrogatory be issued in an authoritative voice, or there are flashing emergency lights, or your path to leave is blocked, or multiple officers appear and take up tactical positions, then things change according to the Supreme Court.
    Last edited by Fallschirmjäger; 01-11-2014 at 09:14 PM.

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    Are there any videos of a OCer walking up to a cop to initiate a encounter?

    Sheeze, the contortions some folks will go.

    When a cop walks up to a OCer he initiates a contact with a citizen. After that the "consensual" part starts. There is nothing consensual about a cop walking up to a OCer. And no, cops do not have a "right' to walk up to a LAC in the course of their duties when no criminal behavior is displayed. The cop should have observed and reported.

    If the cop would have had a cup of coffee and a doughnut in hand, I would not hesitate to chat it up with him. Lights and blocking traffic, well, he ain't here looking for advice on buying a new firearm.

    On one occasion I approached to commend our state troopers for their exemplary conduct in a personal tragedy and accident while I was OC, and another was to commend them for their actions for ignoring the anti's that wanted to boot my OC friends from an anti gun hearing in the capital building. There has been a few others quite a few deputies and Troopers used to hang out at the same coffee shop our meets were at. I would make it a point to approach and talk to a few of the officers.
    Last edited by sudden valley gunner; 01-11-2014 at 09:56 PM.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

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  10. #10
    Regular Member Maverick9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fallschirmjäger View Post
    I must politely disagree with OC for Me

    An officer can walk up and initiate a voluntary conversation with someone openly carrying. He can do the same with a lady pushing a stroller or someone playing Frisbee with their dog. No, it doesn't happen often, but it certainly can happen.
    An officer has every 'right' to walk up to you and wish you a pleasant day or ask 'is it hot enough for ya?" that you have to ask him the same. As long as you do not feel obligated to respond or feel like your freedom to leave is restrained it remains a consensual contact.

    Should a drawn firearm make an appearance, or a command or interrogatory be issued in an authoritative voice, or there are flashing emergency lights, or your path to leave is blocked, or multiple officers appear and take up tactical positions, then things change according to the Supreme Court.
    You're not thinking in the right point of view.

    Let's say I'm a lifeguard at a pool. I'm supposed to be watching swimmers, people on the deck, and making sure that there are no accidents within my purview.

    Now, let's say I turn my back on the pool and walk over to some members who are of interest to me personally. I start chatting them up. It's all very innocent.

    BUT, I am now ignoring my charges in the pool. Someone slips on the diving board and lands on their back in the water, knocking the breath out of them, but they recover OK and with some effort get to the side of the pool. Or maybe two 'utes' decide to jump off the diving board together (against the rules) but no one is hurt.

    While -I- am serving person interests, i.e. not in my job description, but possibly OK, because I'm about 'public relations', except I'm really trying to chat up these patrons for my own reasons (maybe I'm hoping they'll hire me to golf caddy for more money?).

    If it's NOT IN MY JOB DESCRIPTION, I'm wasting time, betraying the trust put in me, and I'm not earning my pay and while I was engaged, I missed two incidents that I could have ameliorated or assisted someone. But it's ok, right no permanent injury? If you were my boss and saw this would you blow it off? I hope not.

    Likewise any cop who walks up to some people doing legal activities, parks their car in the street affecting traffic (a ticketable offense, btw had he been an ordinary joe) and engages in consensual conversation is NOT DOING THE JOB HE WAS HIRED FOR. In fact he's really looking for trouble or maybe looking for some jollies. If I was his sergeant and I saw this I'd reprimand him.

    HTH
    Last edited by Maverick9; 01-12-2014 at 04:21 AM.

  11. #11
    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fallschirmjäger View Post
    I must politely disagree with OC for Me

    An officer can walk up and initiate a voluntary conversation with someone openly carrying. He can do the same with a lady pushing a stroller or someone playing Frisbee with their dog. No, it doesn't happen often, but it certainly can happen.
    An officer has every 'right' to walk up to you and wish you a pleasant day or ask 'is it hot enough for ya?" that you have to ask him the same. As long as you do not feel obligated to respond or feel like your freedom to leave is restrained it remains a consensual contact.

    Should a drawn firearm make an appearance, or a command or interrogatory be issued in an authoritative voice, or there are flashing emergency lights, or your path to leave is blocked, or multiple officers appear and take up tactical positions, then things change according to the Supreme Court.
    If he make contact with a citizen in the course of his duties when no criminal activity is suspected or observed he does not have the right to contact me. If a cop wants to tell me my shoe is untied or that my fly is open, he receives my thanks.

    It will be very obvious right quick and in a hurry, if a cop is pointing out that my fly is open, or that he is "interested" in my OCed firearm.

    The cop could have simply went in to the shop and bypassed the citizens. No, he did not do that.

  12. #12
    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sudden valley gunner View Post
    On one occasion I approached to commend our state troopers for their exemplary conduct in a personal tragedy and accident while I was OC, and another was to commend them for their actions for ignoring the anti's that wanted to boot my OC friends from an anti gun hearing in the capital building. There has been a few others quite a few deputies and Troopers used to hang out at the same coffee shop our meets were at. I would make it a point to approach and talk to a few of the officers.
    I guess that those instances would be considered "in the course of your duties."

    Do you walk up to cops on the street to engage in a consensual contact? As in, delaying them when they are going about their business, in other words, do you "detain" them to engage in a consensual contact.

    If a cop don't care about a OC they don't care and they keep on keeping on. When they make contact they are doing their job in the vast majority of instances even though they know what you are doing is legal and would not warrant any interest from him otherwise.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fallschirmjäger View Post
    An officer can walk up and initiate a voluntary conversation with someone openly carrying. He can do the same with a lady pushing a stroller or someone playing Frisbee with their dog. No, it doesn't happen often, but it certainly can happen.
    An officer has every 'right' to walk up to you and wish you a pleasant day or ask 'is it hot enough for ya?" that you have to ask him the same. As long as you do not feel obligated to respond or feel like your freedom to leave is restrained it remains a consensual contact.
    Absolutely correct. But it does happen all the time. Typically when a cop makes mere contact they are trying to establish either RAS to be able to detain you or PC to be able to arrest you. Although, it is also a common tactic for a cop to approach a suspect when they do have either RAS or PC, but instead of openly detaining or arresting the suspect right away, they will make it look like it is just a simple contact with hopes that the individual will reveal something that they can use against him/her. This is a way to get around mirandizing the person of his or her rights under the Miranda rule as they are far more likely to claim up once advised of their right to remain silent.

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    Quote Originally Posted by countryclubjoe View Post
    Also a decent job by Officer Dale, however, Officer Dale need not be applauded for simply knowing his job...
    CCJ and all,

    Actually it appears to me that Officer Dale Doesn't know the laws very well. At 4:46 in the video one of the OCers says "Most officers think you have to ID to a police officer. We're like, no you don't not unless you've been lawfully arrested." And Dale replies, "Lawfully detained."

    I looked up the Texas stop and identify statute.

    It reads,

    " Sec. 38.02. FAILURE TO IDENTIFY. (a) A person commits an offense if he intentionally refuses to give his name, residence address, or date of birth to a peace officer who has lawfully arrested the person and requested the information.
    (b) A person commits an offense if he intentionally gives a false or fictitious name, residence address, or date of birth to a peace officer who has:
    (1) lawfully arrested the person;
    (2) lawfully detained the person; or
    (3) requested the information from a person that the peace officer has good cause to believe is a witness to a criminal offense."

    http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.u.../htm/PE.38.htm

    That sounds to me like the OCer was RIGHT and the cop was WRONG. He apparently believes you have to provide ID when detained.

  15. #15
    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fallschirmjäger View Post
    An officer can walk up and initiate a voluntary conversation with someone openly carrying. He can do the same with a lady pushing a stroller or someone playing Frisbee with their dog. No, it doesn't happen often, but it certainly can happen....
    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    If he make contact with a citizen in the course of his duties when no criminal activity is suspected or observed he does not have the right to contact me. If a cop wants to tell me my shoe is untied or that my fly is open, he receives my thanks.
    It will be very obvious right quick and in a hurry, if a cop is pointing out that my fly is open, or that he is "interested" in my OCed firearm.
    The cop could have simply went in to the shop and bypassed the citizens. No, he did not do that.
    An officer has every "right" to engage you in conversation that someone peddling insurance, looking for a lost dog, wanting you to sign a petition, or who is intrigued by the shade of your eyes has to try and engage you. In turn you have the same "right" to engage in a conversation with a total stranger because you like his tailor or because you look like you're both fans of the same sports team.
    You have every right to refuse the encounter.
    It's voluntary on your part whether or not you wish to participate. You would actually want to strip others of a right you yourself enjoy? For shame, Sir.

    Quote Originally Posted by Augustin View Post
    Absolutely correct. But it does happen all the time. Typically when a cop makes mere contact they are trying to establish either RAS to be able to detain you or PC to be able to arrest you. Although, it is also a common tactic for a cop to approach a suspect when they do have either RAS or PC, but instead of openly detaining or arresting the suspect right away, they will make it look like it is just a simple contact with hopes that the individual will reveal something that they can use against him/her. This is a way to get around mirandizing the person of his or her rights under the Miranda rule as they are far more likely to claim up once advised of their right to remain silent.
    I quite agree, Augustin, it does happen quite often, and possibly way too often. Is that not even more of a reason why we should celebrate when it doesn't happen that way?
    Not just 'be ignored' but to be engaged with in a friendly manner?
    Could even be on the way back to Sheriff Andy and Mayberry, perish the thought.

    Why are some so against an officer who is not inimicable to us? Are we so soured of law enforcement that we cannot celebrate one officer who is friendly?

    Speaking about 'just making contact', consensual encounters and such, there's a recent fourth amendment case that holds that an officer saying "Come here" or "I want to talk to you" even in an authoritative voice is 'merely a request that may freely be denied'. The courts are beginning to really split hairs in order to support convictions obtained where there were dubious Constitutional issues. See US v Richardson and this post on FourthAmendment.com
    Last edited by Fallschirmjäger; 01-17-2014 at 06:42 PM.

  16. #16
    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    If he makes contact with a citizen in the course of his duties when no criminal activity is suspected or observed he does not have the right to contact me.

    Continue to ignore my statements. I am no longer interested in your commentary on this matter.

  17. #17
    Regular Member stealthyeliminator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Augustin View Post
    CCJ and all,

    Actually it appears to me that Officer Dale Doesn't know the laws very well. At 4:46 in the video one of the OCers says "Most officers think you have to ID to a police officer. We're like, no you don't not unless you've been lawfully arrested." And Dale replies, "Lawfully detained."

    I looked up the Texas stop and identify statute.

    It reads,

    " Sec. 38.02. FAILURE TO IDENTIFY. (a) A person commits an offense if he intentionally refuses to give his name, residence address, or date of birth to a peace officer who has lawfully arrested the person and requested the information.
    (b) A person commits an offense if he intentionally gives a false or fictitious name, residence address, or date of birth to a peace officer who has:
    (1) lawfully arrested the person;
    (2) lawfully detained the person; or
    (3) requested the information from a person that the peace officer has good cause to believe is a witness to a criminal offense."

    http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.u.../htm/PE.38.htm

    That sounds to me like the OCer was RIGHT and the cop was WRONG. He apparently believes you have to provide ID when detained.
    Oh yeah, you are right about that.

    As pointed out in the video, cops are charged to enforce "every" law, of which there are a lot. OCers generally need to know a select set of laws which will apply to their activities and events, which enables them to know those select laws pretty darn well. And a lot, probably the majority, of OCers do at least know the basics very very well. I am kind of shocked that the officer would not know this one, though, as I would consider this issue a very basic one. He should know this one for sure.
    Advocate freedom please

  18. #18
    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    We all need to keep in mind that the video is in Texas, in my state I would have been sorta perturbed that the officer bothered to check me out. OTH in Texas OC is still looked down on, so while not optimal it was better than most Texas encounters with the police. IMO it appeared the officer just wanted to make the dispatcher happy and get the heck outa there, but the OCers kept him there. I have no problem with their friendly nature, it is just not my deal.
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  19. #19
    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    If he makes contact with a citizen in the course of his duties when no criminal activity is suspected or observed he does not have the right to contact me.
    Continue to ignore my statements. I am no longer interested in your commentary on this matter.
    Colors and font effects removed in accordance with Rule (19).

    So, if I read your meaning correctly, if Officer Friendly's duty for the day happens to be being a human traffic control device at the intersection of 3rd and Main because the electricity at that location at that place has gone out, he's not allowed to give a wave and a friendly 'hello'?

    The "course of duties" for Officer Friendly is to 'seek out and investigate behavior or circumstances that may be indicative of criminality.' As part of that duty, the courts have ruled that he does indeed have the 'right' to engage in Tier-1 encounters. Why to you think the courts even had to define the concept?
    If he did not 'have the right' to have a consensual encounter then the courts would have prohibited such.
    I think it's more that you have an indefensible position than me "ignoring your statements" (as I clearly am not doing so) than anything else.

    Guess what... this is also a 'consensual encounter'... you're free not to engage in it though. But I can still attempt one.
    Last edited by Fallschirmjäger; 01-17-2014 at 07:53 PM.

  20. #20
    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    We all need to keep in mind that the video is in Texas, in my state I would have been sorta perturbed that the officer bothered to check me out. OTH in Texas OC is still looked down on, so while not optimal it was better than most Texas encounters with the police. IMO it appeared the officer just wanted to make the dispatcher happy and get the heck outa there, but the OCers kept him there. I have no problem with their friendly nature, it is just not my deal.
    We can all be perturbed, but he was dispatched by his employer. Had he not responded to the call and investigated he could be brought up on charges by his employer.
    He did not draw a weapon, he did not block anyone from a path to leave, he did not attempt to exert any authority over anyone, there was absolutely no indication that this was anything other than a consensual encounter (a behavior reinforced by the Terry decision.)

    No, he did not have to interact with the carriers, but he was not in any way prohibited from doing so and any of the people gathered there were free not to engage in conversation or even remain in the vicinity.


    Okay, let me ask a "false dilemma" question, which would you prefer...
    Pleasant interaction with law enforcement as though you both were human beings with rights enjoyed by all or,
    him sitting in his car giving everyone the 'death stare' as he "observed, but did not interact?"

    Who do you want, Dale, or this guy?

    ^ One of the guys watching the openly armed, anti-Bloomberg, anti-NoMoreNames protest at the Georgia Capital building.


    That's not him just trying to get a little 'crotch air' he had this kwazy-jeet-kun-do thing going on all the time.
    Last edited by Fallschirmjäger; 01-17-2014 at 08:07 PM.

  21. #21
    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Like most people I just want to be left alone...
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    President Donald Trump

  22. #22
    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    Like most people I just want to be left alone...
    I don't blame you, but people still have the right to free speech, even agents of the goverment.

  23. #23
    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fallschirmjäger View Post
    I don't blame you, but people still have the right to free speech, even agents of the goverment.
    Cough Cough, you were in the military, YOU know better. Agents of the government under contract to said government have their rights limited. You did not read my first post well enough, I intimated that the encounter for Texas was good for Texas, but I would not tolerate it in NC. In fact I was stopped by a deputy a week or so back, and I made it very clear I was not interested in a conversation, of any type. He was interrupting my walk, which did annoy me, he had no justification for the stop no matter how friendly. In the incident in this case the officer used his lights, made it clear he was investigating a complaint. SOOOO it was a stop, no matter how friendly it was BS, IMO. YMMV

    BTW free speech only is a right with government, NOT the public. No he had no right to free speech to accost the public.
    Last edited by WalkingWolf; 01-17-2014 at 09:43 PM.
    It is well that war is so terrible – otherwise we would grow too fond of it.
    Robert E. Lee
    The patriot volunteer, fighting for country and his rights, makes the most reliable soldier on earth.
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    What separates the winners from the losers is how a person reacts to each new twist of fate.
    President Donald Trump

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