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Thread: Reckless & Deadly LEO Video! Lessons to be learned!

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    Regular Member neuroblades's Avatar
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    Exclamation Reckless & Deadly LEO Video! Lessons to be learned!

    This is a frightening experience and a great lesson to be learned about how to handle LEO's that have NO IDEA what the gun laws are! The initial officer is reckless and deadly in his premature drawing of his sidearm on an innocent civilian in public. He demonstrated highly illegal reaction and I can't even being to mention how many criminal charges could be and might still be brought to bear on him. One thing's for sure, he definitely DOES NOT need to be behind a firearm, let alone being an LEO!

    In all my years of open & concealed carry I have only encountered 3 LEO's that were as reckless, dangerous & deadly as this one. I personally was involved with one such incident and thanks to dashcam video of the incident, that female officer lose her job!

    The problem begins with LEO's don't know the law(s) pertaining to Open Carry and is extended further when LEO's forget whom they serve as public servants! Granted there are some good & decent LEO's out there and those are the one's that know the law pertaining to Open Carry and they also know how to properly treat others that they serve.

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    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    I see a civil suit in that officer's future.
    Edit, well duh, it says so right in the article, Falls.

    In light of recent experience, I would recommend remaining silent when questioned by law enforcement; not even explaining how one's conduct is legal. On the side of the road, an officer is unlikely to be of any mind to have some slick talking jive turkey dissuade from what he thinks is his appointed guardianship of the peace.

    Telling the police how you are legal gets them thinkin'. One of those thoughts that might not have occurred otherwise is how to find something in the law that can be twisted to their advantage or to cloud the issue of an illegal detainment. If he is thinking he's doing the right thing, he's unlikely to critique his own performance and find errors.
    Last edited by Fallschirmjäger; 01-11-2014 at 01:58 AM.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    This apparently happened back in January of 2013. Is there an update of any kind regarding the situation?
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

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    Case filed two weeks ago.

    Deffert v. Moe et al
    Plaintiff: Johann Deffert
    Defendant: Grand Rapids, City of, Kevin Belk, William Moe, Timothy Johnston and Stephen LaBrecque

    Case Number: 1:2013cv01351
    Filed: December 20, 2013

    Court: Michigan Western District Court
    Office: Southern Division (1) Office
    County: Kent
    Presiding Judge: Janet T. Neff

    Nature of Suit: Civil Rights: Other
    Cause of Action: 28:1983 Civil Rights
    Jury Demanded By: Plaintiff

    https://dockets.justia.com/docket/mi...3cv01351/76587

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    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    Well not quite That open access. Try as I might, I can't find the text of the accusation anywhere without a subscription to someone.

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    Sorry, I thought the irony about PACER was obvious.

    They say 'free' and then demand a CC specification, and address, and telephone number, and IP, and blood type, and ...

    Open Access is an issue of its own, with activists and forums and bashing and anti-bashing.
    Last edited by Nightmare; 01-11-2014 at 12:02 PM.
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    Regular Member Fuller Malarkey's Avatar
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    In the video at about 32 second mark, the Suburban approaching the incident comes to a stop, and one can only imagine the confusion and apprehension the driver must have experienced. Particularly if that Suburban contained family such as children, approached in a menacing manner by an overweight police officer with a handgun pointed directly at their vehicle. At what point would you surmise you were not the object of officer Waddle's attention, and some guy strolling down the sidewalk was?

    I certainly wouldn't have considered that a pedestrian engaged in what appears to be legal activity to be the ambush target. An impulsive person with strong maternal or paternal instincts MAY have availed themselves of a defense, the best one at hand being that Suburban, the Jenny Craig candidate soon to become an imbedded hood ornament.
    Liberty is so strongly a part of human nature that it can be treated as a no-lose argument position.
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    From the cop’s perspective, the expression “law-abiding citizen” is a functional synonym for “Properly obedient slave".

    "People are not born being "anti-cop" and believing we live in a police state. That is a result of experience."

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    I recall a service that hooks up with pacer that required no CC .... search forum to find, I forgot

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    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    Dispatcher knew open carry was legal.
    Dispatcher reassured the caller that the citizen's conduct was legal.
    Dispatcher still dispatched an officer to check out "suspicious conduct."


    I've said it before, I say it again, Any and All conduct can be "suspicious" as long as you don't have to answer "suspicious of what?"

  10. #10
    Regular Member Fuller Malarkey's Avatar
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    Plaintiff: "May I ask why I'm being stopped?"
    Officer: "Because you have a handgun walking down the street. That's why."
    Plaintiff: "Lawful possession of a handgun is not a ... reason to detain me officer."
    Officer: "Yes it is, until I figure out what's going on."

    http://www.mlive.com/news/grand-rapi...apids_pol.html

    I imagine someone, somewhere would take offense or issue with me labeling this "Isolated Incident" 88,690, and that I should simply state "has anyone ever encountered similar behaviour before"?

    Now, let's not jump to conclusions that the question would serve to establish a pattern among certain government agents.
    Liberty is so strongly a part of human nature that it can be treated as a no-lose argument position.
    ~Citizen

    From the cop’s perspective, the expression “law-abiding citizen” is a functional synonym for “Properly obedient slave".

    "People are not born being "anti-cop" and believing we live in a police state. That is a result of experience."

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    Regular Member Primus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fuller Malarkey View Post
    Plaintiff: "May I ask why I'm being stopped?"
    Officer: "Because you have a handgun walking down the street. That's why."
    Plaintiff: "Lawful possession of a handgun is not a ... reason to detain me officer."
    Officer: "Yes it is, until I figure out what's going on."

    http://www.mlive.com/news/grand-rapi...apids_pol.html

    I imagine someone, somewhere would take offense or issue with me labeling this "Isolated Incident" 88,690, and that I should simply state "has anyone ever encountered similar behaviour before"?

    Now, let's not jump to conclusions that the question would serve to establish a pattern among certain government agents.
    There we go now your getting it. I'm impressed. Lol

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    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    "How do I know you're not (a felon, a prostitute, a rapist, drunk driving)?" is NOT the same as, "I can articulate a reasonable suspicion that you are in violation of State Code ________."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fuller Malarkey View Post
    Plaintiff: "May I ask why I'm being stopped?"
    Officer: "Because you have a handgun walking down the street. That's why."
    Plaintiff: "Lawful possession of a handgun is not a ... reason to detain me officer."
    Officer: "Yes it is, until I figure out what's going on."

    .
    Should have continued....

    Plaintiff: then I am placing you under citizens arrest for kidnapping ...
    Cop: What?
    Plaintiff: You are under arrest, put your hands up!

    (his argument that he's a cop doing his job does not exist until plead in court)


    I think anytime you think that a cop does not have RAS, an arrest is in order.
    Last edited by davidmcbeth; 01-11-2014 at 05:48 PM.

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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    “Deffert was alone, and was loudly talking to himself,” Moe wrote. “Based on the area, and Deffert’s unusual behavior, R/O (responding officer) was concerned Deffert may have mental issues and was about to commit a violent crime."
    This is the part where the cop gets off the hook. Drawing down on a citizen who is engaged in lawful behavior.

    Now, will R/O draw down on other folks who display unlawful behavior in his opinion.

    It is a sad day where a cop's opinion can be or will be justified in drawing down on a LAC.

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    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    This is the part where the cop gets off the hook. Drawing down on a citizen who is engaged in lawful behavior.

    Now, will R/O draw down on other folks who display unlawful behavior in his opinion.

    It is a sad day where a cop's opinion can be or will be justified in drawing down on a LAC.
    Moe must have hearing like a Vulcan, hearing someone from that far away supposedly talking to himself.

    I will note that officers talk to each other and discuss strategy, one of the symptoms of schizophrenia is talking to oneself, or rehearsing conversations. If an officer wants to create doubt there's no reason not to use something that can't be disproven.
    he was talking to himself
    he was walking in an agitated manner
    he was clenching his buttocks
    he was too polite
    he wasn't polite enough, etc.

    oh crapdoodles, I rehearse conversations all the time. (But so did Winston Churchill PM of Great Britain)

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    Regular Member Maverick9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fallschirmjäger View Post
    "How do I know you're not (a felon, a prostitute, a rapist, drunk driving)?" is NOT the same as, "I can articulate a reasonable suspicion that you are in violation of State Code ________."
    Jeeze, can't you see the Officer Primus is just saying he'd like to stop every driver to find out...if...they're, um, oh, a rapist.

    Perfectly logical (though time consuming).

    HTH.

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    Regular Member DrakeZ07's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fallschirmjäger View Post
    Moe must have hearing like a Vulcan, hearing someone from that far away supposedly talking to himself.

    I will note that officers talk to each other and discuss strategy, one of the symptoms of schizophrenia is talking to oneself, or rehearsing conversations. If an officer wants to create doubt there's no reason not to use something that can't be disproven.
    he was talking to himself
    he was walking in an agitated manner
    he was clenching his buttocks
    he was too polite
    he wasn't polite enough, etc.

    oh crapdoodles, I rehearse conversations all the time. (But so did Winston Churchill PM of Great Britain)
    Churchill was an Alcoholic, what's you're excuse? :P
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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Gentlemenpersons, if you please.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Regular Member Rusty Young Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrakeZ07 View Post
    Churchill was an Alcoholic, what's you're excuse? :P
    That while Sir Winston Churchill may have been found drunk on occasion and this William Moe was wrong in how he chose to handle the situation, Churchill would be found sober the next morning and Moe will still be found wrong in the morning.
    [Just a play on one of Sir Winston Churchill's more (in?)famous utterances]

    OT: Can't shake the feeling that pretty soon this whole "he looked suspicious, but I don't know why" thing will become routinely accepted as RAS. Scary and sends chills down my spine to even think about it.
    Last edited by Rusty Young Man; 01-12-2014 at 01:01 PM. Reason: Italics and clarification
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    Regular Member Fuller Malarkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rusty Young Man View Post
    That while Sir Winston Churchill may have been found drunk on occasion and this William Moe was wrong in how he chose to handle the situation, Churchill would be found sober the next morning and Moe will still be found wrong in the morning.
    [Just a play on one of Sir Winston Churchill's more (in?)famous utterances]

    OT: Can't shake the feeling that pretty soon this whole "he looked suspicious, but I don't know why" thing will become routinely accepted as RAS. Scary and sends chills down my spine to even think about it.
    I think you are right. There appears to be a full court press going on to indoctrinate the peons that it has been resolved that for officer safety, all rights will be voluntarily relinquished. Anyone objecting will be shamed and shunned, and their character disparaged to include disregard for the safety of the children and having terrorist ties. After all, they have a hard job to do, and rights are overrated anyways. You need security more than freedom, and best you divert your attention from quaint outdated documents and worship your protectors. Do as your told, and you have nothing to worry about.
    Last edited by Fuller Malarkey; 01-12-2014 at 02:08 PM.
    Liberty is so strongly a part of human nature that it can be treated as a no-lose argument position.
    ~Citizen

    From the cop’s perspective, the expression “law-abiding citizen” is a functional synonym for “Properly obedient slave".

    "People are not born being "anti-cop" and believing we live in a police state. That is a result of experience."

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    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rusty Young Man View Post
    That while Sir Winston Churchill may have been found drunk on occasion and this William Moe was wrong in how he chose to handle the situation, Churchill would be found sober the next morning and Moe will still be found wrong in the morning.
    [Just a play on one of Sir Winston Churchill's more (in?)famous utterances]

    OT: Can't shake the feeling that pretty soon this whole "he looked suspicious, but I don't know why" thing will become routinely accepted as RAS. Scary and sends chills down my spine to even think about it.
    Last edited by Fallschirmjäger; 01-12-2014 at 03:12 PM.

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    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    When I was being deposed in relation to the Great Gary Prikle Park Pirkling, the county attorney representing the two officers I was suing tried to put across the theory that they only needed 'mere suspicion' in order to make a detainment.
    It didn't go over well for her.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rusty Young Man View Post
    That while Sir Winston Churchill may have been found drunk on occasion and this William Moe was wrong in how he chose to handle the situation, Churchill would be found sober the next morning and Moe will still be found wrong in the morning. [Just a play on one of Sir Winston Churchill's more (in?)famous utterances].
    (My emphasis)Without a cited source to or of Churchill, I believe what you refer to is apocryphal, as reported by George Thayer, The Washington Post (April 27, 1971), p. B6

    To help you find your source, this may be the full bon mot, "Lady Nancy Astor: Winston, you are drunk.
    Churchill: Indeed, Madam, and you are ugly—but tomorrow I'll be sober."
    Last edited by Nightmare; 01-12-2014 at 04:47 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rusty Young Man View Post
    That while Sir Winston Churchill may have been found drunk on occasion and this William Moe was wrong in how he chose to handle the situation, Churchill would be found sober the next morning and Moe will still be found wrong in the morning.
    [Just a play on one of Sir Winston Churchill's more (in?)famous utterances]

    OT: Can't shake the feeling that pretty soon this whole "he looked suspicious, but I don't know why" thing will become routinely accepted as RAS. Scary and sends chills down my spine to even think about it.
    And that is where PATRIOTS finally draw a line and protect their honor and liberty!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fallschirmjäger View Post
    When I was being deposed in relation to the Great Gary Prikle Park Pirkling, the county attorney representing the two officers I was suing tried to put across the theory that they only needed 'mere suspicion' in order to make a detainment.
    It didn't go over well for her.
    You suspected he was full of crapola? Wonder who was right ...

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