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Thread: Ashland OC Ban

  1. #1
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    Exclamation Ashland OC Ban

    http://www.kobi5.com/news/item/onlin...l#.UtGAU_sS6s0

    https://www.change.org/petitions/the...y-ordinances-2

    Having OC'd in Ashland for from 2008 - 2011 on my bicycle commutes to/from work, this hits home. Does anyone know when/where to get details on the "council study session" in Ashland and if something like that is open to the public?

    In the meantime, consider shooting (ha, punny) a letter to these folks:



    John Stromberg, Mayor
    john@council.ashland.or.us

    Mike Morris, City Councilor
    mike@council.ashland.or.us

    Rich Rosenthal, City Councilor
    rich@council.ashland.or.us

    Dennis Slattery, City Councilor
    dennis@council.ashland.or.us

    Greg Lemhouse, City Councilor
    greg@council.ashland.or.us

    Carol Voisin, City Councilor
    carol@council.ashland.or.us

    Pam Marsh, City Councilor
    pam@council.ashland.or.us



    pam@council.ashland.or.us; carol@council.ashland.or.us; greg@council.ashland.or.us; dennis@council.ashland.or.us; rich@council.ashland.or.us; mike@council.ashland.or.us; john@council.ashland.or.us

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    I would check in here, regularly, if I was shy:

    http://www.ashland.or.us/SectionIndex.asp?SectionID=475

    Or just call and ask City Hall "when?" if I wasn't shy.

    Looks like they livestream 'em, so everybody here could get a good look...

  3. #3
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    I am working on a "speech" to present to the Council at their meeting next Tuesday. The ban isn't supposed to be on the agenda yet so I am planning to address them during the time for citizens to address the Council on non agenda items. I plan to open with "ain't no problem so we don't need a solution", then go over their limitations per state preemption as well as per the US Constitution. The plan is to close with the admonition about unintended consequences. Passing a "loaded ban" ordinance will make Ashland the destination of choice for every open carry activist in Southern Oregon from Klamath Falls to the Coast and Roseburg to the border (perhaps even past the border). End result: they will have more, not fewer, guns on their streets if they "ban" them. Particularly on weekends when their precious tourist dollars are in town.

    Yes, I WILL be open carry with my "assault pistol" when I address them.
    "The Second Amendment speaks nothing to an unfettered Right". (Post # 100)
    "Restrictions are not infringements. Bans are infringements.--if it reaches beyond Reasonable bans". (Post # 103)
    Beretta92FSLady
    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...ons-Bill/page5

    Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer, nothing in any of my posts should be considered legal advice. If you need legal advice, consult a reputable attorney, not an internet forum.

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    The "change.org" petition has 215 signatures send this link far and wide to get the pro-2nd responses 10 times the number of the antis.

    http://www.oregonfirearms.org/portland-slime

    http://www.ashland.or.us/CouncilContact.asp

    We the people, I hope to join you on Tuesday. It's been a year since the Salem rally. I think Warren needs to speak there as well regarding the absolute professionalism and respect for PEOPLES RIGHTS the Ashland PD has.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff. State View Post
    The "change.org" petition has 215 signatures send this link far and wide to get the pro-2nd responses 10 times the number of the antis.

    http://www.oregonfirearms.org/portland-slime

    http://www.ashland.or.us/CouncilContact.asp

    We the people, I hope to join you on Tuesday. It's been a year since the Salem rally. I think Warren needs to speak there as well regarding the absolute professionalism and respect for PEOPLES RIGHTS the Ashland PD has.
    From the small portion of signatures I could read on the change dot org site, the majority were NOT from Ashland. I couldn't see all of them however.

    I will be at the Salem rally on Sunday. I'll be "well" armed, probably three weapons this time as I recently acquired a very nifty setup for concealed carry and want to give it a workout when I don't need it. I'll be posting pics on my FB at some point.
    "The Second Amendment speaks nothing to an unfettered Right". (Post # 100)
    "Restrictions are not infringements. Bans are infringements.--if it reaches beyond Reasonable bans". (Post # 103)
    Beretta92FSLady
    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...ons-Bill/page5

    Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer, nothing in any of my posts should be considered legal advice. If you need legal advice, consult a reputable attorney, not an internet forum.

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    Regular Member We-the-People's Avatar
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    "Speech" given. I believe it was well received by the council and do not believe that any proposed gun ban ordinance has much chance of passing. I know at least one councilor thinks like me and I have indications that several others are of the "ain't broke don't fix it" and/or freedom and liberty minds.

    Afterwards, the Mayor thanked me for speaking and said I did well and thanked me for the points I brought up as they would give the council members some good points to consider. He pointed out how the council had bent over backwards with the Ashland gun club and while he didn't commit, I think he's a fairly safe vote against any ban ordinance as well.

    After I spoke, and older gentleman rose to speak and gave a very good five minute talk about liberty, freedom, and how he carries for his protection and they aren't going to take it away.

    I have video and will be processing it later today.
    "The Second Amendment speaks nothing to an unfettered Right". (Post # 100)
    "Restrictions are not infringements. Bans are infringements.--if it reaches beyond Reasonable bans". (Post # 103)
    Beretta92FSLady
    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...ons-Bill/page5

    Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer, nothing in any of my posts should be considered legal advice. If you need legal advice, consult a reputable attorney, not an internet forum.

  7. #7
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    "The Second Amendment speaks nothing to an unfettered Right". (Post # 100)
    "Restrictions are not infringements. Bans are infringements.--if it reaches beyond Reasonable bans". (Post # 103)
    Beretta92FSLady
    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...ons-Bill/page5

    Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer, nothing in any of my posts should be considered legal advice. If you need legal advice, consult a reputable attorney, not an internet forum.

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    Great job We-the-People! Sorry, couldn't make it, was a little late for the family.

    Glad to hear that it seems this may be DOA.

    Did anyone there talk to you after, whether pro or con?

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    Very nicely done! Great start and finish. And the middle was pretty good too

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff. State View Post
    Great job We-the-People! Sorry, couldn't make it, was a little late for the family.

    Glad to hear that it seems this may be DOA.

    Did anyone there talk to you after, whether pro or con?
    No problem on not making it. My GF was "dead" by the time we got home and got her to bed (I was far too wired to lay down).

    I did talk with several people after the meeting adjourned. No one said anything SPECIFIC but having held a position behind the big desk I understand that they CANT to that. That said, I have the distinct feeling that the ordinance will not be well received. That doesn't mean we can drop our guard but that we're not facing what most may have been imagining (including myself).

    It's not DOA as at least one Councilor is behind the ordinance.....something COULD end up being passed to appease the anti's.....politicians like to compromise to not totally piss off any one group.......... But it's not looking good for the anti's.
    "The Second Amendment speaks nothing to an unfettered Right". (Post # 100)
    "Restrictions are not infringements. Bans are infringements.--if it reaches beyond Reasonable bans". (Post # 103)
    Beretta92FSLady
    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...ons-Bill/page5

    Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer, nothing in any of my posts should be considered legal advice. If you need legal advice, consult a reputable attorney, not an internet forum.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by We-the-People View Post
    Well dressed, well spoken, descriptions and discussion without frothing confrontation.

    Nicely done! Would serve well as a training video for a lot of other people who'd like to speak to public bodies.

  12. #12
    Regular Member We-the-People's Avatar
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    CeaseFire and other anti-gun groups are apparently trying to drum up a large force to attend the Councils "study session" meeting on the 3rd of February.

    My understanding is that there is no public participation in a "study session" but I'm also not naive enough to believe that they won't try to pull "something". There is no agenda published at this time but I'm pretty certain that they will be discussing the proposed ordinances out of the anti camp.

    I have a class that I must attend (only meets once per week) at SOU so I will not be able to attend. We need to have the gun rights side represented in the audience at this meeting so I am calling on all who can attend to do so.

    Open Carry IS legal so long as you have a CHL. It is conducted in a "public building" and the room also serves as the MUNICIPAL courtroom. ORS 166.360 does not include municipal courts in it's definition of "court facility" and I have personally open carried in Council chambers with no issues. The chief of police was present and didn't even bat an eye so I would consider it to be "safe". I put quotes because while you may not need to worry about the police department of Ashland, there is no telling what kind of nuts CeaseFire and their ilk might dredge up for attendance.

    Please, if you can attend, do so. If you're an Ashland resident that's even better but it is not required.
    "The Second Amendment speaks nothing to an unfettered Right". (Post # 100)
    "Restrictions are not infringements. Bans are infringements.--if it reaches beyond Reasonable bans". (Post # 103)
    Beretta92FSLady
    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...ons-Bill/page5

    Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer, nothing in any of my posts should be considered legal advice. If you need legal advice, consult a reputable attorney, not an internet forum.

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    I saw on KDRV this AM, Ashland is having the issue at their meeting tonight at 5:30. If anyone has the ability, be there and let your voice be heard.
    Last edited by Jeff. State; 02-03-2014 at 11:52 AM.

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    http://www.ashland.or.us/Page.asp?NavID=16051

    CITY COUNCIL STUDY SESSION
    A G E N D A
    Monday, February 3, 2014
    Council Chambers, 1175 East Main Street



    5:30 p.m. Study Session

    1. Look Ahead review

    2. Discussion of granting a conservation easement on Imperatrice Property (Request of Councilor Lemhouse)

    3. Discussion of an ordinance prohibiting the unlawful carrying of loaded firearms in public places and an ordinance to prohibit endangering a child by allowing access to a firearm (Request of Councilor Voisin)

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff. State View Post
    http://www.ashland.or.us/Page.asp?NavID=16051

    CITY COUNCIL STUDY SESSION
    A G E N D A
    Monday, February 3, 2014
    Council Chambers, 1175 East Main Street



    5:30 p.m. Study Session

    1. Look Ahead review

    2. Discussion of granting a conservation easement on Imperatrice Property (Request of Councilor Lemhouse)

    3. Discussion of an ordinance prohibiting the unlawful carrying of loaded firearms in public places and an ordinance to prohibit endangering a child by allowing access to a firearm (Request of Councilor Voisin)
    I will be unable to attend this tonight due to a class that meets during this event. I will be checking the RVTV video as soon as it is up but that may not be in time to address the council on Tuesday evening (I'm hoping it is).

    PLEASE....anyone that can attend.....DO SO. If you have a CHL, it is lawful to open carry to this event.
    "The Second Amendment speaks nothing to an unfettered Right". (Post # 100)
    "Restrictions are not infringements. Bans are infringements.--if it reaches beyond Reasonable bans". (Post # 103)
    Beretta92FSLady
    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...ons-Bill/page5

    Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer, nothing in any of my posts should be considered legal advice. If you need legal advice, consult a reputable attorney, not an internet forum.

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    Do any of the council members or the mayor take some kind of oath of office that includes The Constitution?
    Last edited by Jeff. State; 02-03-2014 at 04:35 PM.

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    Regular Member We-the-People's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff. State View Post
    Do any of the council members or the mayor take some kind of oath of office that includes The Constitution?
    All government employees take such an oath.

    According to news reports, the Ashland Council decided to continue to explore the gun ban and storage ordinances. As they did not shut them down outright, I think Ashland needs to see an abundance of open carriers in their downtown tourist area.

    I also heard that there was someone at the meeting with an AR and pistol. While that's their right, it's not politically savvy as it only whips up the opposition. Out on the streets would be far less antagonistic, though still ******* off the anti's.

    I am still trying to access video of the meeting but as of 10am it does not appear to be available on the normal venue. I'll be checking YouTube next.

    We need to put open carriers on the streets of Ashland, particularly on the weekends when they get their tourists coming to town, and particularly in areas where tourists congregate.
    "The Second Amendment speaks nothing to an unfettered Right". (Post # 100)
    "Restrictions are not infringements. Bans are infringements.--if it reaches beyond Reasonable bans". (Post # 103)
    Beretta92FSLady
    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...ons-Bill/page5

    Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer, nothing in any of my posts should be considered legal advice. If you need legal advice, consult a reputable attorney, not an internet forum.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by We-the-People View Post
    All government employees take such an oath [to support and defend the Constitution].
    Sometimes many times over the course of their lives.

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    Glad to see someone showed up and submitted a written statement opposing the ordinance.

    However, the similar Beaverton ordinance was also opposed by a single citizen that had to stand alone when an ignorant career city council member started making claims that the National Guard was the militia being granted power by the second amendment. Not a single soul stood up on his hind legs and called out the council for acts of ignorance and prejudice so we got screwed.

    I saw the video of We-the-People's comments from a previous meeting so there is hope if several citizens of Ashland join in.
    Last edited by SteveM; 02-04-2014 at 05:56 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SteveM View Post
    Glad to see someone showed up and submitted a written statement opposing the ordinance.

    However, the similar Beaverton ordinance was also opposed by a single citizen that had to stand alone when an ignorant career city council member started making claims that the National Guard was the militia being granted power by the second amendment. Not a single soul stood up on his hind legs and called out the council for acts of ignorance and prejudice so we got screwed.

    I saw the video of We-the-People's comments from a previous meeting so there is hope if several citizens of Ashland join in.
    There is indeed reason for hope.

    I attended the Study Session last night (Monday) and the Council Chambers were packed (~60 pax). I was one of many that had to sit and watch the proceedings on TV in the lobby. A fair guesstimate would say those in in attendance for this issue (and that was the majority) were split fairly evenly between response-able rights advocates and self confessed social-engineers (with their young children in tow, cynically dragged along as props by parents pretending to be concerned with child welfare, when they should arguably have been at home getting ready for dinner and bedtime stories).

    Chief of Police Holderness revealed that in the last 5 years there have been 11 convictions for crimes commited with a firearm within Ashland. Of those, 9 were crimes such as robbery where the weapons were brandished and only 2 involved a weapon that was actually discharged. He confirmed that "that was about right, 2 a year". The Chief of Police also stated that there was not in his opinion a problem, and that this was clearly an issue more of "community values" [rather than a public safety issue].

    The City Attorney essentially councilled caution, stating this could get expensive and complicated.

    Councillor Voison, who is the member that has picked this up and is representing the affiliation known as 'Citizens for a Safe Ashland' did a tremendous job channeling Nancy Pelosi. She talked of "enhancing public safety", "protecting our children", "doesn't take guns from law abiding citizens", a "ban on open carry is in the best interest" and so on. She revealed, emotionally, that 'they' had received a letter from some entity in Sand Hook, CT imploring them to proceed. She closed by asserting quite categorically that "we as a council have to make a decision" and that it must happen in a "timely manner".

    Councillor Lemhouse (formerly Medford PD) recognized the divisive nature of this (he's a declared Independent) and questioned efficacy and demanded statistical proof that it could improve public safety.

    Councillor Marsh pre-supposes it's a good idea and highlighted the fact that previous ordinances had passed that infringed The People's liberty so let's not be scared to pass another.

    Councillor Morris wants data, and to know it will be "effective".

    Councillor Slatterty wants "decent public policy that works".

    Councillor Rosenthal suggested bringing the proposed ordinance to a regular meeting to allow deliberation, discussion and public input.

    Which is what will now be scheduled to happen over the course of the next few weeks.

    The council appears, like the citizens that attended, to be split 50/50. The Mayor recognized that this ordinance would really only be symbolic, and as he is the tie breaker - being advised by a cautious City Attorney and reluctant Chief of Police I would suggest again that there's every reason to be optimistic. That said, we haven't really started this yet so no time for complacency.

    There was talk of putting the ordinance, or a general question of intent, to the ballot [fall 2014].

    2014 also sees 3 of the 6 Council seats up for re-election. Loud and clear voices will be heard. Let them be ours!

    "Liberty Ashland" is in formation now as a grass roots organization committed to the uncompromising defense of the inalienable rights of all, and to advocating for limited government in The City of Ashland, Ore. More information to follow.

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    After Monday evening's Study Session there was a discussion outside the chambers between members of both 'camps'.

    One of the herbivorous holophobes was lecturing the individual who OC'd both an 1911 and an AR whilst various others listened. The OC'er was polite and articulate, and he had his mother and wife with him.

    I interjected and asked if the one talking had authored this. He hadn't. I suggested that this would be quite ineffective, in as much as we all know:

    (a) there is no problem,
    (b) this ordinance would not and could not stop a "problem"even if there was one, and
    (c) CHL permit holders are exempt, etc

    They retorted that that was better than nothing, that at least a CHL guaranteed a level of proficiency - which was laughed at, and he smirkingly conceded it was a low bar.

    And then, like a magician pulling a rabbit from a top hat I invited the truth to spill forth from their own mouths: they want to change society. They are self confessed social engineers who are fully aware of what they are doing. This is calculated, make no mistake of that fact. 'Politics is a continuation of war by other means' I seem to remember.

    Having made their confession I put it to them that their attempt to deny us our natural rights was in itself a very violent action of very violent people. I explained their passive aggressive and coercive social engineering relied on Chief Holderness and his men, with guns, to enforce their will on others. At this point they just walked off in a state of cognitive dissonance. Next time we see them we can invite them to the ranges!

    Beyond giving myself props, I feel the take home of this was that there we were again in relatively equal members (interestingly all pro 2A were vets, old and young) - and that given the opportunity to calmly and clearly enunciate our position they cannot win. The 'democratic' system will allow this before the council, and so - if it were down to reason alone we would be assured victory. Sadly it's not, and so we have to play politics too. This has begun... see next post...

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    Tonight (Tuesday) at the Council's regular business meeting two individuals spoke during the public forum, and both spoke against the proposed ordinances.

    The first was a satire by a business-owner, resident, and parent of a young child who announced the intent of a new public safety concern group called 'Citizens for a REALLY safe Ashland'.

    He suggested that as grass roots initiatives were so in vogue, and that ideals such as liberty and rights were so clearly outmoded that we must not settle for copying other municipalities ineffective and unenforceable ordinances, we should instead take our lead from Europe and ban everything. He mentioned that a draft ordinance is being written by the group and is seeking council support of it. The affiliation's new draft ordinance proposes to ban the public display of all sorts of potentially dangerous, unfamiliar, and even scary items such as chain saws, power tools, knives and ladders. The ordinance would also punish people that allow minors access to said items and others including car keys and alcohol and medications.

    A change.org petition with the new REALLY safe ordinance is billed to be up and running by the end of the week. Satire lives.

    The other gentleman, a resident of over 35 years, spoke eloquently of firearms, their use, purpose and functionality. He addressed criminal disregard for laws, and concluded that he would not stand for his rights being eroded.

    The council then spent an hour and a half deciding to probably not require citizens to apply for a permit to film or video record on their own private property! Liberty Ashland has it's work cut out!

  23. #23
    Regular Member We-the-People's Avatar
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    LibertyAshland

    Thank you for being there and for the reports. I was unable to attend Monday's study session due to classes but was finally able to view the video late this afternoon. Unfortunately, not in time to prepare comments for the public forum at tonight's meeting.

    I was particularly interested to see Councilor Voison's non factual plea to emotions and action while providing no data and basically admitting that she hadn't seen any "but it's out there". I plan to take her to task personally.

    It was also refreshing to see Councilor's asking for facts, the city manager recommending caution and warning of litigation. It was VERY refreshing to hear that the Chief was proactive and did some preliminary research, perhaps after hearing my previous comments during public forum two weeks ago and anticipating the question of "is there a problem".

    I believe if a vote were taken NOW it might well be 3-3 with the Mayor breaking the tie and I think at this point he would go against. However, there is much more discussion and much more politicking to do before a vote is made.

    We need to energize local and not so local pro rights and pro gun people to contact the Councilors and Mayor. We also need to get OUR facts and figures lined out and have at least a couple of people ready to speak at every public forum and hearing from here until the matter is decided. I also think that we should make plans for strategic protests should the need arise. Ashland depends upon tourism, and should it be deemed strategically advantageous, putting a half dozen open carriers on the streets each Saturday and Sunday (far more than they normally see) MIGHT make some see the unintended consequences of a yes vote.....i.e. MORE visible arms on their streets and at times that it might affect their tourism dollars. If deemed necessary, I'm leaning towards those carriers having signs along the lines of "I have a CHL, I will be exempt from your ordinance".

    No, that is NOT a call to inundate their downtown with open carriers at this time. I think that needs to be a politically strategic decision kept available and planned for as a contingency but not yet deployed.

    Next post will have a link to Monday's "study session". I do not yet see Tuesday's meeting video and expect it will be up sometime tomorrow afternoon.
    "The Second Amendment speaks nothing to an unfettered Right". (Post # 100)
    "Restrictions are not infringements. Bans are infringements.--if it reaches beyond Reasonable bans". (Post # 103)
    Beretta92FSLady
    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...ons-Bill/page5

    Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer, nothing in any of my posts should be considered legal advice. If you need legal advice, consult a reputable attorney, not an internet forum.

  24. #24
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    Ashland "study session" video from February 3rd, 2014.

    The first 78 minutes are regarding the firearms ordinances presented to Council by Councilor Voison.

    http://vp.telvue.com/player?height=3...4920&width=400
    "The Second Amendment speaks nothing to an unfettered Right". (Post # 100)
    "Restrictions are not infringements. Bans are infringements.--if it reaches beyond Reasonable bans". (Post # 103)
    Beretta92FSLady
    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...ons-Bill/page5

    Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer, nothing in any of my posts should be considered legal advice. If you need legal advice, consult a reputable attorney, not an internet forum.

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    Thanks for the updates and video links. I am keenly interested in following the arguments for and against this proposed ordinance in Ashland as I am trying to get the Beaverton ordinance repealed. The problem is I struggle to find reasons why others support such an ordinance and can think of several reasons to oppose it. Our city council hasn't given any indication why they have no desire to repeal it so I assume they are in favor of it and I want to challenge those beliefs.

    I think Chief Holderness got to the heart of it by saying it was about "community values" and in fact not a public safety issue.
    Last edited by SteveM; 02-06-2014 at 11:56 PM.

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