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Thread: Maryland a scary place

  1. #1
    Regular Member JohnM15A's Avatar
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    Maryland a scary place

    I have plans to visit DE in June/July this year but have to travel through MD. I posted on the DE forum but there seems to be little activity there. Anyway, saw this:

    http://tbo.com/list/columns-tjackson...land-20140112/

    Now I'm thinking twice about taking a sidearm with me....
    "Just because I'm paranoid does not mean they are not out to get me"
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  2. #2
    Founder's Club Member thebigsd's Avatar
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    Wow, that's pretty bad. As someone who has moved from Virginia to Pennsylvania I deal with the transport situation quite often when I go back home. I follow FOPA and hope I don't get pulled over for anything. The main thing I remember is to never consent to a search of the vehicle.
    "When seconds count between living or dying, the police are only minutes away."

  3. #3
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    I got pulled over in NJ and the cop kept on asking me if I had any guns...I just sat there quite ... he got mad stomping up and down ... let em ... not my problem.

  4. #4
    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    Well, of course he wrote out a warning, he had to substantiate why he stopped the man in the first place.
    I wonder if it was for one of those mysterious 'tag lights' that only works sporadically. It always works.... unless the police are behind you, like it knows they're there.

    This is probably the most damning reason why firearms licenses should NOT be linked to driver's licenses.

  5. #5
    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    Ten minutes later he’s back, and he wants John out of the Expedition. Retreating to the space between the SUV and the unmarked car, the officer orders John to hook his thumbs behind his back and spread his feet. “You own a gun,” the officer says. “Where is it?”
    “At home in my safe,” John answers.
    “Don’t move,” says the officer.
    Now he’s at the passenger’s window. “Your husband owns a gun,” he says. “Where is it?”
    First Kally says, “I don’t know.” Retelling it later she says, “And that’s all I should have said.” Instead, attempting to be helpful, she added, “Maybe in the glove [box]. Maybe in the console. I’m scared of it. I don’t want to have anything to do with it. I might shoot right through my foot.”
    I bet we can all see where he and his wife went wrong.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fallschirmjäger View Post
    I bet we can all see where he and his wife went wrong.
    The Gentleman should have remained in the vehicle. He and his wife should have remained silent and do not consent to any search..

    However their mistakes, I do not agree to the treatment they received from the LEO.

    The lesson to be learned is; REMAIN SILENT!

    My .02

    Best regards,

    CCJ
    " I detest hypocrites and their Hypocrisy" I support Liberty for each, for all, and forever".
    Ask yourself, Do you own Yourself?

  7. #7
    Regular Member 2a4all's Avatar
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    Where they went wrong was in their preparations for the trip. He left his gun at home and didn't tell the family members that he did so. Especially bad, since he thought about the consequences of carrying it into Maryland.
    A law-abiding citizen should be able to carry his personal protection firearm anywhere that an armed criminal might go.

    Member VCDL, NRA

  8. #8
    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    Blaming the victim?

    "Okay honey, listen up this is important. The Glock is in the safe, the Ruger's at your brother's in Boca, the Remington's at my sister's in Cocoa Beach. Got all that?"
    "Is the Glock the black one?"
    "They're all black, okay one more time........"

  9. #9
    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by countryclubjoe View Post
    The Gentleman should have remained in the vehicle. He and his wife should have remained silent and do not consent to any search..

    However their mistakes, I do not agree to the treatment they received from the LEO.

    The lesson to be learned is; REMAIN SILENT!
    True on the last part, not so much on the first, I'm afraid.
    When the nice officer with the gun TELLS you to get out, you get out. Not doing so is resisting/obstruction and you WILL get out or be dragged out. Conversely if he tell you to stay inside, Stay Inside.
    Last edited by Fallschirmjäger; 01-15-2014 at 12:11 AM.

  10. #10
    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    What lesson do we take from this?

    This horrible story is being discussed over on one of the VCDL facebook pages.

    The question that needs to be answered is this:

    Does Virginia automatically send CHP information to out-of-state law enforcement agencies when they run a check on a plate or a driver's license?

    If so, this needs to STOP and NOW. Obviously when an inquiry comes in asking if a SPECIFIC person HAS a CHP, that is one thing, and is fine. That's part of reciprocity. But to AUTOMATICALLY send it out for any plate check or ID check is NOT fine, and should be stopped if that is what is happening. As far as I know, statistics are still on our side with CHP holders being the most law-abiding segment of society. Officer safety is NOT the issue here.

    There is NO benefit to the citizens of Virginia for our government to provide the insane and corrupt law enforcement agencies in the foreign lands to the north of us with information they can then use to go fishing.

    VCDL really should look into this as a legislative action item.

    TFred
    Last edited by TFred; 01-15-2014 at 01:03 AM.

  11. #11
    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    Contact your legislative rep, this is unacceptable. It's far too dangerous for a State's citizens traveling into a 2A hostile state to have their firearms status broadcast.

    Think of it in these terms...
    Your state legalizes X behavior that's a felony in Y. You travel into Y and interact with law enforcement.
    How do you think Y's police are going to react knowing that you're a felon (or you would be if you were one of that State's citizens)?

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fallschirmjäger View Post
    Contact your legislative rep, this is unacceptable. It's far too dangerous for a State's citizens traveling into a 2A hostile state to have their firearms status broadcast.

    Think of it in these terms...
    Your state legalizes X behavior that's a felony in Y. You travel into Y and interact with law enforcement.
    How do you think Y's police are going to react knowing that you're a felon (or you would be if you were one of that State's citizens)?
    Hi

    What was the RAS for the stop in the first place. "out of State Tags" ? So if you drive into Maryland with out of state tags expect to be detained on the side of the road and harassed. Total ********..

    My .02

    Regards

    CCJ
    " I detest hypocrites and their Hypocrisy" I support Liberty for each, for all, and forever".
    Ask yourself, Do you own Yourself?

  13. #13
    Activist Member JamesCanby's Avatar
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    For various reasons I travel regularly from the Commonwealth of Virginia back into TPR of Maryland. I do not carry when doing so. Still, even though I have an NRA Life Member decal on my rear window and a large bright orange "Guns Save Lives" VCDL sticker on my rear hatch, and even though I regularly use one of the two toll tunnels when traveling through Maryland (where this OP incident occurred) ... I have never been stopped.

    Even if I were pulled over for some reason, I have studied and practiced enough to know what to say and what not to say -- and so does my wife:

    "Am I being detained?" (Obviously if it's a traffic stop I *am* being detained.)
    "I don't answer questions." (Other than obeying the responsibility to provide D/L, Registration and Insurance Card.)
    "I do not consent to any searches or seizures of my person, papers or property."
    "Am I free to go?"

    Otherwise, upon the good advice of my counsel, I KMBMS. (Keep My Big Mouth Shut.)

    Depending on the hard-ass level of the detaining officer, this may cause him or her to become agitated, but so be it. I'm protecting my rights.

    And, of course, I know the laws regarding video and audio recording and I keep the recorder running.

    All without attitude on my part, and remaining calm and smiling...
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  14. #14
    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by countryclubjoe View Post
    What was the RAS for the stop in the first place. "out of State Tags" ? So if you drive into Maryland with out of state tags expect to be detained on the side of the road and harassed.
    That is an intriguing question, according to the article the individual was doing nothing overtly wrong, he was even getting passed by traffic.

    Hmmm... I do recall reading somewhere that one of the indicators of a vehicle potentially carrying drugs was driving at or even below the speed limit (on the theory that if you're obeying the law the cops won't pull you over.) As the driver had an SUV (drug indicator), tinted windows (drug indicator and most SUVs are sold tinted), and was driving at or below the speed limit (indicator) he 'fit the profile' of a drug mule.

    It's quite possible the nice officer just wanted a roadside chat. Had he gone to the driver's window, not been engulfed in noxious marijuana smoke and the license come back 'clean' he would have handed the license back and said, "Hey, I saw your tag light was out, you may wanna get that fixed. Have a nice day, citizen."

    Unfortunately, the license check reported something that Maryland does NOT like, people with guns. In my opinion, he grossly over-reacted and in order to cover his ass at the end issued a 'warning citation' to try and justify his actions. Good thing about warning citations is that it implies the officer was doing his job (I pulled the driver over because of an equipment violation) but doesn't require the ticket to be answered in court.
    I'll bet dollars to doughnuts that it was for a tag light being out. Something that mysteriously happens only occasionally and can't be reproduced or need ever happen again.


    Cops talk to cops, they discuss their jobs. They talk about what phrases and words to use in court. They talk about what indicators to look for or say they looked for, they discuss tactics to use against the criminal element. If an officer speaks to you in any other way than, "Hey, how 'bout them sportsteam, they really sportsteamed last night didn't they?" he's speaking to someone he suspects is a potential criminal and he just has to find out what they did wrong.
    Last edited by Fallschirmjäger; 01-15-2014 at 11:54 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JamesCanby View Post
    For various reasons I travel regularly from the Commonwealth of Virginia back into TPR of Maryland. I do not carry when doing so. Still, even though I have an NRA Life Member decal on my rear window and a large bright orange "Guns Save Lives" VCDL sticker on my rear hatch, and even though I regularly use one of the two toll tunnels when traveling through Maryland (where this OP incident occurred) ... I have never been stopped.

    Even if I were pulled over for some reason, I have studied and practiced enough to know what to say and what not to say -- and so does my wife:

    "Am I being detained?" (Obviously if it's a traffic stop I *am* being detained.)
    "I don't answer questions." (Other than obeying the responsibility to provide D/L, Registration and Insurance Card.)
    "I do not consent to any searches or seizures of my person, papers or property."
    "Am I free to go?"

    Otherwise, upon the good advice of my counsel, I KMBMS. (Keep My Big Mouth Shut.)

    Depending on the hard-ass level of the detaining officer, this may cause him or her to become agitated, but so be it. I'm protecting my rights.



    And, of course, I know the laws regarding video and audio recording and I keep the recorder running.

    All without attitude on my part, and remaining calm and smiling...
    Hi Folks

    +1 squared!

    CCJ
    " I detest hypocrites and their Hypocrisy" I support Liberty for each, for all, and forever".
    Ask yourself, Do you own Yourself?

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fallschirmjäger View Post
    That is an intriguing question, according to the article the individual was doing nothing overtly wrong, he was even getting passed by traffic.

    Hmmm... I do recall reading somewhere that one of the indicators of a vehicle potentially carrying drugs was driving at or even below the speed limit (on the theory that if you're obeying the law the cops won't pull you over.) As the driver had an SUV (drug indicator), tinted windows (drug indicator and most SUVs are sold tinted), and was driving at or below the speed limit (indicator) he 'fit the profile' of a drug mule.

    It's quite possible the nice officer just wanted a roadside chat. Had he gone to the driver's window, not been engulfed in noxious marijuana smoke and the license come back 'clean' he would have handed the license back and said, "Hey, I saw your tag light was out, you may wanna get that fixed. Have a nice day, citizen."

    Unfortunately, the license check reported something that Maryland does NOT like, people with guns. In my opinion, he grossly over-reacted and in order to cover his ass at the end issued a 'warning citation' to try and justify his actions. Good thing about warning citations is that it implies the officer was doing his job (I pulled the driver over because of an equipment violation) but doesn't require the ticket to be answered in court.
    I'll bet dollars to doughnuts that it was for a tag light being out. Something that mysteriously happens only occasionally and can't be reproduced or need ever happen again.


    Cops talk to cops, they discuss their jobs. They talk about what phrases and words to use in court. They talk about what indicators to look for or say they looked for, they discuss tactics to use against the criminal element. If an officer speaks to you in any other way than, "Hey, how 'bout them sportsteam, they really sportsteamed last night didn't they?" he's speaking to someone he suspects is a potential criminal and he just has to find out what they did wrong.
    The modern age of technology and the G sharing information. Hence I contend give them no information... Permits, licenses, etc are a form of contract that you create with the G, and all your personal information is entered into a government data base therefore by entering into said contract you are essentially surrendering your right to privacy... Most folks do not understand this theory.
    Read- Liberty Of Contract by David N. Mayer, legal scholar.
    Read -What Social Classes Owe To Each Other- BY William Graham Sumner, Sumner is perhaps the best known American Theorists of " Laissez-Faire"...

    Both authors essay/books focus on citizens rights to NOT enter into contracts, especially contracts that unknowingly take away rights and extend a privilege..

    " A Society based on Contract is a society of free independent men, who form ties without favor or obligation, and co-operate without cringing or intrigue. A society based on Contract, therefore, gives the utmost room and chance for individual development, and for all the self-reliance and dignity of a "free Man"...

    I contend that if a citizen is expected/forced/ by statutes or unjust laws to enter into a contract to exercise a natural right, then said citizen is not a "free Man".

    My .02

    Best regards

    CCJ
    " I detest hypocrites and their Hypocrisy" I support Liberty for each, for all, and forever".
    Ask yourself, Do you own Yourself?

  17. #17
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    Hi Folks

    The citizen was clearly stopped for having out of state tags, in this case Florida tags.

    Regards

    CCJ
    " I detest hypocrites and their Hypocrisy" I support Liberty for each, for all, and forever".
    Ask yourself, Do you own Yourself?

  18. #18
    Regular Member zoom6zoom's Avatar
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    [QUOTEI have plans to visit DE in June/July this year but have to travel through MD. ][/QUOTE]
    and just in case you missed it, to prevent other issues, Delaware no longer honors our VA CHP's.

  19. #19
    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by countryclubjoe View Post
    The citizen was clearly stopped for having out of state tags, in this case Florida tags.
    Nahhhhh... MDTA's facebook page clearly says it was because the driver was speeding.


    That leaves open the question... IF the transgression of speeding was worth the officer pulling over the driver initially, why was it only a "warning citation" when after 4 or 6 man/hours were expended looking for a firearm not less than a thousand miles away?

    Wasn't it the 'driver's actions' that caused the search? Why did they reward his actions by downgrading the infraction to a 'warning'?

  20. #20
    Regular Member JohnM15A's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zoom6zoom View Post
    [QUOTEI have plans to visit DE in June/July this year but have to travel through MD.
    and just in case you missed it, to prevent other issues, Delaware no longer honors our VA CHP's.
    Arrrrrg! What about non-resident UT? I guess this interactive map needs updating:

    http://www.usacarry.com/concealed_ca...city_maps.html
    Last edited by JohnM15A; 01-15-2014 at 07:56 PM.
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  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fallschirmjäger View Post
    Nahhhhh... MDTA's facebook page clearly says it was because the driver was speeding.


    That leaves open the question... IF the transgression of speeding was worth the officer pulling over the driver initially, why was it only a "warning citation" when after 4 or 6 man/hours were expended looking for a firearm not less than a thousand miles away?

    Wasn't it the 'driver's actions' that caused the search? Why did they reward his actions by downgrading the infraction to a 'warning'?
    Hi Fallschirmjager.

    You raise some great points. The leos in this case were basically free rolling( A poker term). They make a stop of a citizen with out of state plates (Florida). If the citizen should have some warrants they search for drugs, weapons, etc. If they get lucky and find anything they make an arrest and they look like they were doing some great police work however in this case they simply look like a bunch of bullies and they need to make excuses for their actions..

    My .02

    Best regards

    CCJ
    " I detest hypocrites and their Hypocrisy" I support Liberty for each, for all, and forever".
    Ask yourself, Do you own Yourself?

  22. #22
    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fallschirmjäger View Post
    Nahhhhh... MDTA's facebook page clearly says it was because the driver was speeding.
    I thought you were joking. But you were not.

    https://www.facebook.com/TheMDTA

    What a farce. What professional law enforcement agency uses social media to bail themselves out of a jam?

    Wow, I hardly thought it was possible, but my opinion of Maryland law enforcement actually just went even LOWER.

    TFred

  23. #23
    Regular Member Maverick9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    I got pulled over in NJ and the cop kept on asking me if I had any guns...I just sat there quite ... he got mad stomping up and down ... let em ... not my problem.
    David, can you go over this in a little more detail? I don't mistrust you, but find it hard to believe that a NJ cop, with their reputation allowed you to sit there quietly while he stomped up and down, then (presumably) let you go on your way.

    He didn't make you get out of the car? He didn't bring in dogs? He didn't threaten anything?

    If you have this on video, I'd love to see it, but failing that, maybe a description would be OK. If true, I'd like to use your 'method' if I ever encountered that scenario.

    How fast were you going? Or was it equipment?

    Did you get a ticket or were you let go with a warning?

    TIA

  24. #24
    Regular Member Maverick9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TFred View Post
    This horrible story is being discussed over on one of the VCDL facebook pages.

    The question that needs to be answered is this:

    Does Virginia automatically send CHP information to out-of-state law enforcement agencies when they run a check on a plate or a driver's license?
    ...
    TFred
    The CHP information is entered in VCIN (Virginia Criminal Identification Network). I have this on authority. I would not be surprised if there are ways for other LE to access this.

    It may be that Florida has an analog to this and other LE can access that. It may be that they are now able to input this into the larger dB.

    As you know they have license plate readers which can read the plate of a vehicle going 40mph PERPENDICULARLY to the officer's squad (making the window of view for the reader about 1/2 a second. They can read it from a distance of 50 yards, going that speed also. (I'm making an educated guess).

    Anyway, this LEO had a device like this, read the plate, the computer linked it up and found the info in FLA's dB of permit holders and showed him he had a 'hit'.

    They probably make a real effort to have this capability due to the likelihood of making a big bust as cars travel from FLA to the Northeast up the "contraband pipeline". That's probably why the LEO got away with it and the press didn't disclose his ID. He's a hired 'enforcer' type, on the job because of his rage issues and OCD and natural tenacity.

    Again a guess...

  25. #25
    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maverick9 View Post
    The CHP information is entered in VCIN (Virginia Criminal Identification Network). I have this on authority. I would not be surprised if there are ways for other LE to access this.
    If this is so, not doubting your source, just saying... IMHO, this should be one of the highest priorities for VCDL - until it is DONE:

    To completely remove Virginia CHP information from all "criminal" databases.

    There is ONE and ONLY ONE legitimate reason for the State of Virginia to voluntarily share CHP information, and that is with another state with which we have reciprocity, and ONLY in direct support of that agreement.

    In other words, short of a court order or equivalent (for a specific individual), no Virginia agency should ever share any CHP information with any other state, except to validate a permit for a citizen who is exercising a reciprocity agreement.


    What am I missing here?

    TFred
    Last edited by TFred; 01-16-2014 at 02:57 AM.

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