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Thread: MD Cops harassing out-of-state gun owners...

  1. #1
    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    MD Cops harassing out-of-state gun owners...

    For those of you who don't think that the police can't tell if you have a CHL just by running your car's tags, you might want to read this story.

    Not only can they see if you have a carry permit, but they will pull you over JUST to try to jack you for lawful interstate carry--even though it's protected by Federal law.

    Maryland is such a vile little serfdom...

    http://tbo.com/list/columns-tjackson...land-20140112/
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    They used what he said, she said for RAS of a crime that did not exist.

    DO NOT TALK TO POLICE!
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    Another rule is "don't let police follow you."

    I forget whether is was:

    Arrestproof Yourself by Dale Carson, or

    You and the Police by Kenneth Royce aka Boston T. Party

    where the author said never to let police follow you. Turn into a gas station, take an exit, etc.

    Having been seized on three fishing expeditions in the last six years, I no longer let a cop follow me/ride behind me. I change lanes or slow a bit forcing him to go by, or just pull into the nearest open-to-the-public business on the right.

    I have no interest in encountering a bored cop looking for something to do and finding some pretext to go on a fishing expedition with me on the end of his pretext line. Not anymore. Been there done that.

    Now, the poor fellow in the OP probably didn't know cops would be fishing--he's probably been sucked in by the PR spin campaign of "protect and serve" and so forth--so I'm not criticizing him. Just using WW's post as the springboard to my point.



    Those two books I mentioned are excellent. Dale Carson is a former cop, former fed, and now is a defense attorney. He understands first-hand police mindset, and explains it in that book. Kenneth Royce has some great ideas, and is a refreshingly liberty-minded fella.
    Last edited by Citizen; 01-14-2014 at 11:02 PM.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

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    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    Agreed. Officer Friendly behind me means I will pull into the First Open, legal driveway/business that presents itself, or slow down way more than surrounding traffic.

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    Regular Member MNMGoneShooting's Avatar
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    Same thing happened to me in Maryland, though it was not nearly as hostile. The cop came back to tell me that I had a CCW and that I was required by law to tell him (not really... It's a VA permit, not MD). He then asked if I was carrying. I told him, why would I do that in MD?

    This discussion went on a few minutes and then he went back to the 35 mph in 25 mph blah blah blah...

    Same people; transportation authority.

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    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MNMGoneShooting View Post
    Same thing happened to me in Maryland, though it was not nearly as hostile. The cop came back to tell me that I had a CCW and that I was required by law to tell him (not really... It's a VA permit, not MD). He then asked if I was carrying. I told him, why would I do that in MD?

    This discussion went on a few minutes and then he went back to the 35 mph in 25 mph blah blah blah...

    Same people; transportation authority.
    Virginia tags n license?
    I wonder if there might be some database sharing going on.

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    One more reason we should be advocating UC, not just OC. UC is the right. Licensed carry is a privilege that allows the State to do crap like this.

    The victim is thinking of giving up his CCW [sic], which the article calls "caving." If he intends to stop carrying, that's caving. If his intent is to continue to carry unlicensed, Bravo! However, a few State laws would get in the way, and he should work to change them.

    Legal question: I see no RAS for the stop. How the hell can you develop PC if there never was RAS for the stop???

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    Another rule is "don't let police follow you."

    I forget whether is was:

    Arrestproof Yourself by Dale Carson, or

    You and the Police by Kenneth Royce aka Boston T. Party

    where the author said never to let police follow you. Turn into a gas station, take an exit, etc.

    Having been seized on three fishing expeditions in the last six years, I no longer let a cop follow me/ride behind me. I change lanes or slow a bit forcing him to go by, or just pull into the nearest open-to-the-public business on the right.

    I have no interest in encountering a bored cop looking for something to do and finding some pretext to go on a fishing expedition with me on the end of his pretext line. Not anymore. Been there done that.

    Now, the poor fellow in the OP probably didn't know cops would be fishing--he's probably been sucked in by the PR spin campaign of "protect and serve" and so forth--so I'm not criticizing him. Just using WW's post as the springboard to my point.



    Those two books I mentioned are excellent. Dale Carson is a former cop, former fed, and now is a defense attorney. He understands first-hand police mindset, and explains it in that book. Kenneth Royce has some great ideas, and is a refreshingly liberty-minded fella.
    +1
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Interesting point on not letting the cops follow you. I will now be alert to the possibility and will take reasonable action to end any following.


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    As a former Leo, I can tell you that it is possible to follow nearly anyone for a few blocks and find a Legitimate(may be feces of the fowl, but legitimate) reason to pull them over.

    The advice to not let a PD follow you is good.
    I won't be wronged, I won't be insulted, and I won't be laid a hand on. I don't do those things to other people and I require the same of them.

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    Activist Member JamesCanby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldCurlyWolf View Post
    As a former Leo, I can tell you that it is possible to follow nearly anyone for a few blocks and find a Legitimate(may be feces of the fowl, but legitimate) reason to pull them over.

    The advice to not let a PD follow you is good.
    I suspect that if a LEO is following you specifically, your turning off the highway or entering a business parking lot is not going to throw him/her off your trail. If I'm traveling from Point A to Point B I'm not going to be too perturbed by seeing a LEO behind me. I may move over while on a multi-lane highway to see if they want to pass me by, but if he's going to stop me, I don't think my trying to "evade" him will matter.
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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Nobody said anything about "evade" Just not be followed. If the LEO follows the driver to private property he has to make a choice. He can move on, or risk being the subject of a civil action if he does not have a valid reason. Pulling off makes it more difficult for the LEO to claim a valid reason. I would also call police and report being followed.
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    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    As da Wolf said, it's not about 'evasion', more of 'avoidance.' If the officer is following and waiting for you to make an actionable move, then getting off the road as quickly as is reasonable gives you less time to commit a faux pas he can use to have a little chat. He can pull into the same Sack o' Suds, but eventually he's going to have to leave or follow you as you turn into each and every business as you go down the street. Lawd help him if you can find a strip mall with ten or twelve businesses.

    Additionally, I think most states have rules against using a handheld device while driving. Pulling over to use a cellphone, make a note on a piece of paper, or even have a coughing fit is just good manners.
    Last edited by Fallschirmjäger; 01-15-2014 at 03:41 PM.

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    Regular Member Superlite27's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JamesCanby View Post
    I suspect that if a LEO is following you specifically, your turning off the highway or entering a business parking lot is not going to throw him/her off your trail. If I'm traveling from Point A to Point B I'm not going to be too perturbed by seeing a LEO behind me. I may move over while on a multi-lane highway to see if they want to pass me by, but if he's going to stop me, I don't think my trying to "evade" him will matter.
    Where do you see the argument that turning into a gas station or changing lanes will "throw him off your tail"? You also put words into previous poster's mouths by rephrasing this practice as "evading".

    I believe you misunderstand the purpose of this alteration to the route. It isn't to "shake 'em off your tail". The police are pretty experienced at NOT being evaded. I highly doubt making a right turn will do the trick. I've seen criminals on COPS jump entire culverts and blaze through car dealerships without success. Do you honestly think swapping lanes will make one go, "HOLY COW! HE JUST DISAPPEARED!"?

    The purpose of turning in to a business or changing lanes is more of a "litmus test" than an "evasion". Doing so forces the issue. Either the trailing officer continues about his business ending any attempts at "fishing"......

    .....or he alters his course as well, unmistakably revealing that he is, indeed, on a fishing trip.

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    Activist Member JamesCanby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    Nobody said anything about "evade" Just not be followed. If the LEO follows the driver to private property he has to make a choice. He can move on, or risk being the subject of a civil action if he does not have a valid reason. Pulling off makes it more difficult for the LEO to claim a valid reason. I would also call police and report being followed.
    Seriously? You want me to call 911 and tell the Dispatcher that I'm being followed by a police car? Really?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fallschirmjäger View Post
    As da Wolf said, it's not about 'evasion', more of 'avoidance.' If the officer is following and waiting for you to make an actionable move, then getting off the road as quickly as is reasonable gives you less time to commit a faux pas he can use to have a little chat. He can pull into the same Sack o' Suds, but eventually he's going to have to leave or follow you as you turn into each and every business as you go down the street. Lawd help him if you can find a strip mall with ten or twelve businesses.

    Additionally, I think most states have rules against using a handheld device while driving. Pulling over to use a cellphone, make a note on a piece of paper, or even have a coughing fit is just good manners.
    Quote Originally Posted by Superlite27 View Post
    Where do you see the argument that turning into a gas station or changing lanes will "throw him off your tail"? You also put words into previous poster's mouths by rephrasing this practice as "evading".

    I believe you misunderstand the purpose of this alteration to the route. It isn't to "shake 'em off your tail". The police are pretty experienced at NOT being evaded. I highly doubt making a right turn will do the trick. I've seen criminals on COPS jump entire culverts and blaze through car dealerships without success. Do you honestly think swapping lanes will make one go, "HOLY COW! HE JUST DISAPPEARED!"?

    The purpose of turning in to a business or changing lanes is more of a "litmus test" than an "evasion". Doing so forces the issue. Either the trailing officer continues about his business ending any attempts at "fishing"......

    .....or he alters his course as well, unmistakably revealing that he is, indeed, on a fishing trip.
    Holy crap, people... Did you not see the quotes around the word 'evade?' Lighten up.

    I suggested changing lanes only to see if he was trailing my car, or if he just wanted to get by.

    The idea that I should alter my route or get off the highway or turn into a business just because a police car is behind me is the height of paranoia. Either he will go by me, or not, or he will stop me. My time is too important to alter my route of travel just because there's a police car behind me. If he's truly following me, then whatever I do is not going to change his mind about stopping me. If he does stop me, I am prepared to interact with him in the most effective manner and be on my way, which will probably take less time than altering my route.
    Last edited by JamesCanby; 01-15-2014 at 04:20 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JamesCanby View Post
    Seriously? [ ... ] which will probably take less time than altering my route.
    You bet your life.
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    You bet your life.
    What are you saying? That you agree with me or that I am "betting my life" by being stopped?
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    Women have been raped by police impersonators, and even police themselves. If there is any doubt about the intentions of a police officer. You bet your booty you better call 911 to find out. Two things happen you verify it is indeed a cop, and that cop is now on record as following you. Now it makes it a tad more difficult to commit a crime such as rape.

    The above is actually advice that some police give to the public.
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    Activist Member JamesCanby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    Women have been raped by police impersonators, and even police themselves. If there is any doubt about the intentions of a police officer. You bet your booty you better call 911 to find out. Two things happen you verify it is indeed a cop, and that cop is now on record as following you. Now it makes it a tad more difficult to commit a crime such as rape.

    The above is actually advice that some police give to the public.
    Well, I don't think I'll comment on that. After all, you were a police officer, so I guess you know whereof you speak, and are more familiar with what cops do...
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    Quote Originally Posted by JamesCanby View Post

    The idea that I should alter my route or get off the highway or turn into a business just because a police car is behind me is the height of paranoia. Either he will go by me, or not, or he will stop me. My time is too important to alter my route of travel just because there's a police car behind me. If he's truly following me, then whatever I do is not going to change his mind about stopping me. If he does stop me, I am prepared to interact with him in the most effective manner and be on my way, which will probably take less time than altering my route.
    Interesting how interest in preservation of health and liberty is demeaned as "paranoia".

    Within the last 24 hours, I recall reading a post by a member with a history in LE stating he could follow a car for five minutes and find something to pull them over for. And he is by no means the first I've heard say so.

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    Regular Member Fuller Malarkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JamesCanby View Post
    Holy crap, people... Did you not see the quotes around the word 'evade?' Lighten up.

    I suggested changing lanes only to see if he was trailing my car, or if he just wanted to get by.

    The idea that I should alter my route or get off the highway or turn into a business just because a police car is behind me is the height of paranoia. Either he will go by me, or not, or he will stop me. My time is too important to alter my route of travel just because there's a police car behind me. If he's truly following me, then whatever I do is not going to change his mind about stopping me.

    You forgot to qualify your statement with "MY OPINION".

    In looking at your multiple quote post, I recall an old saying that might apply....

    "If one person says you have a tail you can probably ignore it, however, if two or three people say you do, then you better turn around and look."~ Anonymous
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    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JamesCanby View Post
    Holy crap, people... Did you not see the quotes around the word 'evade?' Lighten up.
    I did and I used quotes on 'evade' and 'avoid' as well. But Words Mean Things, if you don't mean a word, you may wish not to use it.
    The idea that I should alter my route or get off the highway or turn into a business just because a police car is behind me is the height of paranoia. Either he will go by me, or not, or he will stop me. My time is too important to alter my route of travel just because there's a police car behind me. If he's truly following me, then whatever I do is not going to change his mind about stopping me. If he does stop me, I am prepared to interact with him in the most effective manner and be on my way, which will probably take less time than altering my route.
    1) Read the case at hand and tell me what if anything the family could have done to 'interact with the officer in the most effective manner' and be on their way?
    For that matter read Time For a Walk in the Park and tell us how that encounter could have been minimized. The police WILL detain you for as long as they think they are making progress towards finding criminal intent. Each question that doesn't provide more probable cause only means that an officer may be asking wrong question and needs to find the one question that will make progress in their investigation. The only way NOT to progress along the path is not to take the first step.

    2) Just because good, measured advice is given, it doesn't mean you have to heed it. We're just telling you how to minimize the chances of having a roadside encounter.

    3) Time is always important, the 5 minutes it takes you to hop into the Sack'o'Suds may save you 20, 30, or even two hours on the side of the road. It's your time, use it wisely. I'm not suggesting Every Time an officer is behind you as sometimes even da po-lice are just going the same stretch of road you are. But when a car hangs around, and you suspect you are the reason I highly advise taking any action you can to lessen an officer's ability to legally detain you.


    Quote Originally Posted by PistolPackingMomma View Post
    Interesting how interest in preservation of health and liberty is demeaned as "paranoia".

    Within the last 24 hours, I recall reading a post by a member with a history in LE stating he could follow a car for five minutes and find something to pull them over for. And he is by no means the first I've heard say so.
    PPM, I've heard the same boast and seen it on forums as well. And it's not even that you Have to do something wrong. It can easily be a 'mechanical fault' such as a brake or tag light not functioning properly, some fault that is intermittent and impossible to prove didn't happen.


    Apocryphal tale follows...
    When I used to travel for weeks at a time, often driving late into the night/early morning to reach the next city where I had a job to do. I drove 50,000 miles per year and still worked an 8-10hr job for the customer. My "local territory" covered seven southern states.

    I drove in all sorts of weather from clear to cloudy, rain, sleet and snow and even the blizzard of '94 didn't keep me off the road, nor did Hurricane Andrew. Company policy mandated that for safety the truck's headlights be on whenever the truck was in motion.

    Now, oddly enough I was stopped three times in almost a decade of driving for 'equipment violations.' Each time was after midnight when I was on my way to the next city (or especially when going home for a one-night weekend after 4-5 weeks on the road.) Each time it was for the same 'equipment malfunction' a tag light that didn't work.

    Each time, I offered to replace the bulb from the stock I kept in my van (kind anal that way, I had a first aid kit, too even though it wasn't required.) Each time, I wasn't allowed to do so, but told "I'm going to cut you a break and not give you a ticket but any other officer would. Get it fixed tomorrow, have a good day, Sir."
    Each time, the bulb was working perfectly the next morning, and the day after that, the week after that and the months after that.

    It was magical, the bulb was somehow alive, and knew to not shine only on late nights when the skies were clear and there was an officer behind the truck, I never saw or heard of it not shining any other time. It even worked nights when I was pulled over for excessive speed.
    Last edited by Fallschirmjäger; 01-15-2014 at 05:25 PM.

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    Maybe the Mod's could combine this thread with " Maryland is a scary Place" thread..

    Thank you and best regards.

    CCJ
    Last edited by countryclubjoe; 01-15-2014 at 04:46 PM.
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    Activist Member JamesCanby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PistolPackingMomma View Post
    Interesting how interest in preservation of health and liberty is demeaned as "paranoia".

    Within the last 24 hours, I recall reading a post by a member with a history in LE stating he could follow a car for five minutes and find something to pull them over for. And he is by no means the first I've heard say so.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fallschirmjäger View Post
    I did and I used quotes on 'evade' and 'avoid' as well. But Words Mean Things, if you don't mean a word, you may wish not to use it.

    1) Read the case at hand and tell me what if anything the family could have done to 'interact with the officer in the most effective manner' and be on their way?
    For that matter read Time For a Walk in the Park and tell us how that encounter could have been minimized. The police WILL detain you for as long as they think they are making progress towards finding criminal intent. Each question that doesn't provide more probable cause only means that an officer may be asking wrong question and needs to find the one question that will make progress in their investigation. The only way NOT to progress along the path is not to take the first step.

    2) Just because good, measured advice is given, it doesn't mean you have to heed it. We're just telling you how to minimize the chances of having a roadside encounter.

    3) Time is always important, the 5 minutes it takes you to hop into the Sack'o'Suds may save you 20, 30, or even two hours on the side of the road. It's your time, use it wisely. I'm not suggesting Every Time an officer is behind you as sometimes even da po-lice are just going the same stretch of road you are. But when a car hangs around, and you suspect you are the reason I highly advise taking any action you can to lessen an officer's ability to legally detain you.
    I choose to rely instead on 67 years of living and 47 years of driving and the utter absence of the kind of hassles many of you in here fear. I realize that these things do happen and I have therefore schooled myself in the right things to say and do if stopped and have inculcated the advice of attorneys who are knowledgeable in this area. I am prepared to defend myself, verbally, if I am stopped ... but I am not going to alter my life just because *something* might happen.
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    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JamesCanby View Post
    I choose to rely instead on 67 years of living and 47 years of driving and the utter absence of the kind of hassles many of you in here fear. I realize that these things do happen and I have therefore schooled myself in the right things to say and do if stopped and have inculcated the advice of attorneys who are knowledgeable in this area. I am prepared to defend myself, verbally, if I am stopped ... but I am not going to alter my life just because *something* might happen.
    I'm going to hazard a guess that you don't carry a gun, or isn't a robbery or mugging *something* that might happen?
    I alter my life a great deal because *something* might happen...
    I have medical insurance
    I have life insurance
    I wear a seatbelt when on the road
    I have a first aid kit in my car
    I have a fire extinguisher in the car and in the house

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