Showing Va CHL Permit question(s)

Maverick9 · Jan 15, 2014

Question on the law in Va.

1. If I am Open Carrying in a car, must I show a permit on demand (if I also have a CHL)?

2. If I have firearms in the car, locked in a container (loaded or unloaded) in a car, am I required to show my Permit (If I have it with me?)

3. Same as above - must I carry my permit to the range if I am open carrying and/or driving with the handguns in a secured container?

4. Am I EVER required to answer questions about 'what gun, where is gun, do you have gun' when stopped for a minor (traffic) stop, when driving in Virginia (obviously, absent RAS or PC).

My understanding is that:
1. No
2. No
3. No
4. No

TIA

JamesCanby · Jan 15, 2014

Maverick9 said:
Question on the law in Va.

1. If I am Open Carrying in a car, must I show a permit on demand (if I also have a CHL)?

2. If I have firearms in the car, locked in a container (loaded or unloaded) in a car, am I required to show my Permit (If I have it with me?)

3. Same as above - must I carry my permit to the range if I am open carrying and/or driving with the handguns in a secured container?

4. Am I EVER required to answer questions about 'what gun, where is gun, do you have gun' when stopped for a minor (traffic) stop, when driving in Virginia (obviously, absent RAS or PC).

My understanding is that:
1. No
2. No
3. No
4. No

TIA

First, in Virginia it's a CHP -- Concealed Handgun Permit. By calling it a CHL are you indicating that you are, perhaps, a PA resident?

Because the Commonwealth of Virginia has no law prohibiting open carry you do not need to have or to carry a CHP/CHL when openly carrying, including when your handgun is secured in a container. Note that the container, e.g., glove box, center console, etc., does not have to be locked. Having said that, if you are traffic stopped and the LEO knows you have -- and demands that you present -- your CHP/CHL, prudence may dictate that you present it, even if you are not carrying concealed. There will most likely be advice following this post that indicates that you do not have to present it on demand (because you are not carrying concealed) and that you should decline. Some of us who openly carry (and who are not also concealing) will not carry their CHP/CHL with them -- just make sure your openly carried handgun does not become inadvertently concealed by your coat or jacket.

I'm not certain why you call out a separate case for "driving to the range." Open carry doesn't care where you are going -- to the range, to the 7/11, or to the bathroom.

As for your last question, if you are traffic stopped, you are already being detained. For "investigative" questions regarding anything unrelated to the reason for the traffic stop, you'll have to decide if you want to answer directly, not answer, be evasive or change the subject ... but what you may not do is lie. The (somewhat vague) citation that shows false statements to be a misdemeanor is in another thread.

BillB · Jan 15, 2014

§ 18.2-308.01. Carrying a concealed handgun with a permit.

A. The prohibition against carrying a concealed handgun in clause (i) of subsection A of § 18.2-308 shall not apply to a person who has a valid concealed handgun permit issued pursuant to this article. The person issued the permit shall have such permit on his person at all times during which he is carrying a concealed handgun and shall display the permit and a photo identification issued by a government agency of the Commonwealth or by the U.S. Department of Defense or U.S. State Department (passport) upon demand by a law-enforcement officer. A person to whom a nonresident permit is issued shall have such permit on his person at all times when he is carrying a concealed handgun in the Commonwealth and shall display the permit on demand by a law-enforcement officer. A person whose permit is extended due to deployment shall carry with him and display, upon request of a law-enforcement officer, a copy of the documents required by subsection B of § 18.2-308.010.

B. Failure to display the permit and a photo identification upon demand by a law-enforcement officer shall be punishable by a $25 civil penalty, which shall be paid into the state treasury. Any attorney for the Commonwealth of the county or city in which the alleged violation occurred may bring an action to recover the civil penalty. A court may waive such penalty upon presentation to the court of a valid permit and a government-issued photo identification. Any law-enforcement officer may issue a summons for the civil violation of failure to display the concealed handgun permit and photo identification upon demand.

C. The granting of a concealed handgun permit pursuant to this article shall not thereby authorize the possession of any handgun or other weapon on property or in places where such possession is otherwise prohibited by law or is prohibited by the owner of private property.

JamesCanby · Jan 15, 2014

BillB said:
§ 18.2-308.01. Carrying a concealed handgun with a permit.

A. The prohibition against carrying a concealed handgun in clause (i) of subsection A of § 18.2-308 shall not apply to a person who has a valid concealed handgun permit issued pursuant to this article. The person issued the permit shall have such permit on his person at all times during which he is carrying a concealed handgun and shall display the permit and a photo identification issued by a government agency of the Commonwealth or by the U.S. Department of Defense or U.S. State Department (passport) upon demand by a law-enforcement officer. A person to whom a nonresident permit is issued shall have such permit on his person at all times when he is carrying a concealed handgun in the Commonwealth and shall display the permit on demand by a law-enforcement officer. A person whose permit is extended due to deployment shall carry with him and display, upon request of a law-enforcement officer, a copy of the documents required by subsection B of § 18.2-308.010.

B. Failure to display the permit and a photo identification upon demand by a law-enforcement officer shall be punishable by a $25 civil penalty, which shall be paid into the state treasury. Any attorney for the Commonwealth of the county or city in which the alleged violation occurred may bring an action to recover the civil penalty. A court may waive such penalty upon presentation to the court of a valid permit and a government-issued photo identification. Any law-enforcement officer may issue a summons for the civil violation of failure to display the concealed handgun permit and photo identification upon demand.

C. The granting of a concealed handgun permit pursuant to this article shall not thereby authorize the possession of any handgun or other weapon on property or in places where such possession is otherwise prohibited by law or is prohibited by the owner of private property.

Bill, what you quoted is accurate, but I believe the OP was more concerned with his responsibilities while openly carrying, not concealed.

BillB · Jan 15, 2014

JamesCanby said:
Bill, what you quoted is accurate, but I believe the OP was more concerned with his responsibilities while openly carrying, not concealed.

Well, that's at least a bit unclear I think and why I cited the law. Lets say an officer does a traffic stop and learns from dispatch that the driver has a CHP. He then asks the driver for his CHP. The driver says he does not have to show the officer his CHP because he is not carrying concealed. The officer says I don't know if you are carrying concealed or not, but I know you have a CHP and I'm demanding to see it. The driver says he will not produce his CHP. The officer writes the driver a summons for failure to display his CHP to LE on demand. Who wins in court?

JamesCanby · Jan 15, 2014

BillB said:
Well, that's at least a bit unclear I think and why I cited the law. Lets say an officer does a traffic stop and learns from dispatch that the driver has a CHP. He then asks the driver for his CHP. The driver says he does not have to show the officer his CHP because he is not carrying concealed. The officer says I don't know if you are carrying concealed or not, but I know you have a CHP and I'm demanding to see it. The driver says he will not produce his CHP. The officer writes the driver a summons for failure to display his CHP to LE on demand. Who wins in court?

Bill, the code you cited conditions the need to carry one's CHP thusly: "The person issued the permit shall have such permit on his person at all times during which he is carrying a concealed handgun..."

Therefore, if one is not carrying concealed, one does not have to carry their CHP. Hence, that's why I do not carry my CHP when I'm only openly carrying. I do NOT have to have my CHP in my possession when I'm not carrying concealed.

As for your hypothetical case, I do not know the answer -- there are too many variables, e.g., does the LEO demand to see a CHP even if the carrier is only openly carrying? Does the LEO not believe the carrier when he/she says they are not carrying concealed? Does the judge have a bias against ANYone carrying and mis-applies the law? Etc. If I had to make a guess based on your hypothetical, I suspect that the citizen would win in court based simply on the law and the LEO's inability to show that the citizen was carrying concealed.

All of this is somewhat of a thread drift, given that the OP was specifically talking about Open Carry situations.

BillB · Jan 15, 2014

JamesCanby said:
I suspect that the citizen would win in court based simply on the law and the LEO's inability to show that the citizen was carrying concealed.

I think you are right, but there is some question, even if only very slight.

JamesCanby said:
All of this is somewhat of a thread drift, given that the OP was specifically talking about Open Carry situations.

The driver may well have been open carrying in my scenario.

Regardless, the fact that this CHP display issue is now merely a civil one with only a $25 fine attached drops it off my concern list. Hats off to those who made this happen.

defcon4 · Jan 15, 2014

re: James Canby

JamesCanby said:
First, in Virginia it's a CHP -- Concealed Handgun Permit. By calling it a CHL are you indicating that you are, perhaps, a PA resident.

James, PA does not issue a CHL (concealed handgun license). It issues a LTCF (License to carry firearms). The license makes no distinction between open or concealed carry.

JamesCanby · Jan 15, 2014

defcon4 said:
JamesCanby said:

First, in Virginia it's a CHP -- Concealed Handgun Permit. By calling it a CHL are you indicating that you are, perhaps, a PA resident.

James, PA does not issue a CHL (concealed handgun license). It issues a LTCF (License to carry firearms). The license makes no distinction between open or concealed carry.

Click to expand...

Thanks ... I had thought that the CHL was a PA license. Thanks for the correction. The OP's location just says mid-atlantic so I'm not certain where he's from, just guessed PA.

Maverick9 · Jan 15, 2014

OK, guys, thanks for the input...

The laws and the LEOs don't make it easy, do they?

I picked 'driving to the range' as an -example- because when I drive to the range NOW, I am carrying up to 3-4 firearms on me in various holsters. I would be, uh, concerned if I was stopped for a broken tail light, the LEO was reactionary and demanded to know why I had four guns on me.

So I thought, people talk about locking up handguns in their car when going into a Post Office (or whatever), WHY NOT lock up your firearm when you're driving!! That way if stopped you sidestep the whole 'let me see your gun, let's run your piece, let's disarm you, let's unload your "weapon" and put it in the trunk and sweep your leg or shoot you with your own gun' hysteria. It's not common, but I can do without it.

Now I'm surprised you don't know this but in some/many/a few states your permit pops up INSIDE the LEO's car on his computer screen. It's in various databases. My friend was stopped in Virginia and the LEO said 'oh, I know you have a permit, it's in my database' (actually a "criminal" database). This is because the clerk in her county (non-legally) required a copy of their driver's license along with their SS# and their certificate of training.

I don't want to make it hard on the LEOs, nor do I want to be a butt-hole to them. I just want my ticket and we smile and part with a minimum of fuss. I'm not trying to split hairs, or avoid common-sense interactions by being a junior-lawyer, or resisting. I just want to know the facts.

Why LEOs do not want to look at permits (permitted by law) and DO want to see, handle, fondle, unload, run your serial is probably understandable, but really stupid, given that you've had an eff-bee-eye check, have no felonies or DUI/DV arrests/convictions.

They're not allowed to demand answers to those questions, but I've seen on gun boards people with a LOT of knowledge saying 'When the LEO asks about your gun, keep your hands on the wheel and tell him'. I'm like 'have you read the law? It says 'permit on demand', PERIOD.

Anyway, thanks again.

Fuller Malarkey · Jan 15, 2014

Maverick9 said:
~SNIPPED

Why LEOs do not want to look at permits (permitted by law) and DO want to see, handle, fondle, unload, run your serial is probably understandable, but really stupid, given that you've had an eff-bee-eye check, have no felonies or DUI/DV arrests/convictions.

They're not allowed to demand answers to those questions, but I've seen on gun boards people with a LOT of knowledge saying 'When the LEO asks about your gun, keep your hands on the wheel and tell him'. I'm like 'have you read the law? It says 'permit on demand', PERIOD.

Anyway, thanks again.

It's your comeuppance for being uppity and carrying on their turf. Like having a certain color bandana hanging out of your back pocket in neighborhoods other than your own. You gonna pay sucka.

And like the "all your rights are suspended" as long as police can recite the cliques "aw feared fer ma life", "made a furtive movement", police can take your stuff for "officer safety". I contend it's about establishing dominance, not only with the person carrying, but everyone watching or told the tale to. Intimidation, threats, both verbal and implied, the no-holds barred efforts at removing any question in your mind what place your "rights" play in anything on THEIR turf are some of what I believe is the true motive for escalating a non-issue into a civics lesson with aggressive, violent overtones.

skidmark · Jan 15, 2014

There are a few folks around here who carry more than two (2) OCd handguns at a time - because there is no legal limit on how many you can.

As for getting a citation for not displaying/refusing to display a CHP because you are OCing - this is what voice recorders are for. You go into court with the recorded encounter on a CD and explain to thje judge that since you were not OCing and so informed the nice officer of that you were not legally required to display a CHP. Yes, it carves out time from your life. Yes, it can put a strain on the relationship between you and your significant other. Yes, it is easier all around to just roll over and give in the the nice officer.

The problem, as I see it, is that every person who caves in and displays a CHP when they are not legally required to just makes it that much harder for me when I inform the nice officer that since I am not legally required to display a CHP I choose not to.

No getting into a conversation about if I have a CHP or not, or if I have it with me. I am not legally required to; have a pleasant morning/afternoon/night.

stay safe.

JamesCanby · Jan 15, 2014

skidmark said:
There are a few folks around here who carry more than two (2) OCd handguns at a time - because there is no legal limit on how many you can.

As for getting a citation for not displaying/refusing to display a CHP because you are OCing - this is what voice recorders are for. You go into court with the recorded encounter on a CD and explain to the judge that since you were not OCing CCing and so informed the nice officer of that you were not legally required to display a CHP. Yes, it carves out time from your life. Yes, it can put a strain on the relationship between you and your significant other. Yes, it is easier all around to just roll over and give in the the nice officer.

The problem, as I see it, is that every person who caves in and displays a CHP when they are not legally required to just makes it that much harder for me when I inform the nice officer that since I am not legally required to display a CHP I choose not to.

No getting into a conversation about if I have a CHP or not, or if I have it with me. I am not legally required to; have a pleasant morning/afternoon/night.

stay safe.

Yes. This ^^^^. See fix above, though.

Maverick9 · Jan 15, 2014

JamesCanby said:
First, in Virginia it's a CHP -- Concealed Handgun Permit. By calling it a CHL are you indicating that you are, perhaps, a PA resident?
...
As for your last question, if you are traffic stopped, you are already being detained. For "investigative" questions regarding anything unrelated to the reason for the traffic stop, you'll have to decide if you want to answer directly, not answer, be evasive or change the subject ... but what you may not do is lie. The (somewhat vague) citation that shows false statements to be a misdemeanor is in another thread.

I'm thinking deflective questions related to the stop, if anything. It's clear there's nothing in statues about 'the gun' though some states (Wisconsin? Minnesota?) specifically talk about the gun. One other thing is now clear to me:

Though many advocate only rolling the window down an inch or two, if the officer DEMANDS it you should comply, even though there's not legal backing for him to do that. I might say, 'Sir are you asking or demanding I do that'. Keep the recorder running.

One of my friends stymied those non-legal queries by saying "I'd rather not". Go figure.

TFred · Jan 16, 2014

BillB said:
Regardless, the fact that this CHP display issue is now merely a civil one with only a $25 fine attached drops it off my concern list. Hats off to those who made this happen.

That would be Delegate Mark Cole, on behalf of one of his constituents.

TFred

wylde007 · Jan 16, 2014

If Not Germane To the Stop

Then refuse to accede. If an officer, upon running your tags and connecting you to the VA database wherein your DL and your CHP are cross-referenced, then he knows one fact - that you have been granted a permit to carry a concealed handgun. That, in itself, is not prima facie to presume that you ARE carrying a concealed firearm.

Just as openly-carrying a firearm is not reasonable suspicion that a crime has been committed. An officer may not engage in a Terry Stop to determine if the person carrying the firearm may lawfully do so. He must have reasonable suspicion to believe you are engaged in a criminal activity. The various tactics practiced to establish such suspicion are well-known and will not be addressed here.

Maverick9 · Jan 17, 2014

OK, guys, thanks.

I just wanted to make sure there was nothing in Va code that required you to talk about, or allowed the officer to demand information about the gun. If you have one on you, where it is, if there are other firearms in the car - on a minor traffic stop, absent RAS, such as an expired sticker.

I'm not talking about serious stops, felonies where there might be RAS. Of course we can't know, but one who is sure they are not committing a crime can always politely deflect, decline, keep their pie-hole shut, ask for a sergeant.

I'm thinking, myself, about getting a substantial lockable device which may or may not look like a gun case, allows easy entry by the driver or passenger, is not easily pried open by a screwdriver that the cop might have, and allows me to truthfully say 'Sir I have no firearm on my person, I decline to show other than the required documents', or WTTE.

Now I'm doing this just for my OWN peace of mind. I've only been stopped three times in 48 years of driving.

The advent of:
1. Automatic plate readers;
2. Mistakes in the various LE systems/ misidentification, presence of CHP data in the VCIN;
3. Aggressive LE;
4. Trends that oppose firearm carry
5. DUI roadblocks/ DNA roadblocks

...is making me more paranoid. Go figure. I don't want my firearm to be an issue and I will never use it while driving. Better locked up, then re-deployed on my person when the vehicle is parked.

It's a plan in progress. Still haven't found a decent handgun case, and believe me, I've been looking.

Maverick9 · Jan 17, 2014

TFred,

I looked up the VCIN and my CHP instructor confirmed that LE is using that to look up permit holders.

I WONDER, if it's not possible to petition someone to have your CHP removed from that dB. I would think if those who are wrongly convicted can have their name redacted and it's non-legal to tie your CHP to your Va driver's license, it might be possible. IOW they must have a mechanism to update and correct it.

I'll ask around.

ProShooter · Jan 17, 2014

Maverick9 said:
TFred,

I WONDER, if it's not possible to petition someone to have your CHP removed from that dB. I would think if those who are wrongly convicted can have their name redacted and it's non-legal to tie your CHP to your Va driver's license, it might be possible. IOW they must have a mechanism to update and correct it.

I'll ask around.

§ 18.2-308.07. Entry of information into the Virginia Criminal Information Network.

A. An order issuing a concealed handgun permit pursuant to § 18.2-308.04, or the copy of the permit application certified by the clerk as a de facto permit pursuant to § 18.2-308.05, shall be provided to the State Police and the law-enforcement agencies of the county or city by the clerk of the court. The State Police shall enter the permittee's name and description in the Virginia Criminal Information Network so that the permit's existence and current status will be made known to law-enforcement personnel accessing the Network for investigative purposes.

B. The Department of State Police shall enter the name and description of a person issued a nonresident permit pursuant to § 18.2-308.06 in the Virginia Criminal Information Network so that the permit's existence and current status are known to law-enforcement personnel accessing the Network for investigative purposes.

C. The State Police shall withhold from public disclosure permittee information submitted to the State Police for purposes of entry into the Virginia Criminal Information Network, except that such information shall not be withheld from any law-enforcement agency, officer, or authorized agent thereof acting in the performance of official law-enforcement duties, nor shall such information be withheld from an entity that has a valid contract with any local, state, or federal law-enforcement agency for the purpose of performing official duties of the law-enforcement agency. However, nothing in this subsection shall be construed to prohibit the release of (i) records by the State Police concerning permits issued to nonresidents of the Commonwealth pursuant to § 18.2-308.06 or (ii) statistical summaries, abstracts, or other records containing information in an aggregate form that does not identify any individual permittees.

JamesCanby · Jan 17, 2014

ProShooter said:
§ 18.2-308.07. Entry of information into the Virginia Criminal Information Network.

A. An order issuing a concealed handgun permit pursuant to § 18.2-308.04, or the copy of the permit application certified by the clerk as a de facto permit pursuant to § 18.2-308.05, shall be provided to the State Police and the law-enforcement agencies of the county or city by the clerk of the court. The State Police shall enter the permittee's name and description in the Virginia Criminal Information Network so that the permit's existence and current status will be made known to law-enforcement personnel accessing the Network for investigative purposes.

B. The Department of State Police shall enter the name and description of a person issued a nonresident permit pursuant to § 18.2-308.06 in the Virginia Criminal Information Network so that the permit's existence and current status are known to law-enforcement personnel accessing the Network for investigative purposes.

C. The State Police shall withhold from public disclosure permittee information submitted to the State Police for purposes of entry into the Virginia Criminal Information Network, except that such information shall not be withheld from any law-enforcement agency, officer, or authorized agent thereof acting in the performance of official law-enforcement duties, nor shall such information be withheld from an entity that has a valid contract with any local, state, or federal law-enforcement agency for the purpose of performing official duties of the law-enforcement agency. However, nothing in this subsection shall be construed to prohibit the release of (i) records by the State Police concerning permits issued to nonresidents of the Commonwealth pursuant to § 18.2-308.06 or (ii) statistical summaries, abstracts, or other records containing information in an aggregate form that does not identify any individual permittees.

So it's in the code. In your opinion what are the chances that this code section could be repealed? Is there any evidence that knowing this information has prevented any adverse actions toward police? Is there an inter-agency (i.e., state-to-state) agreement that mandates this information be made available? Would removing this code segment have a negative effect on carry permit reciprocity?

Sorry for the "stream of consciousness" list of questions, just thought I'd throw them out there for comment.

Showing Va CHL Permit question(s)

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