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Thread: Posted locations, trespassing, etc.

  1. #1
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    Posted locations, trespassing, etc.

    n/m. Not as relevant to "open" carry anyway.
    Last edited by Teej; 01-16-2014 at 12:53 PM.
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    Regular Member rpmfan43's Avatar
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    First of all. If "John Doe" likes what he sees in the window, but notices the no firearms placard. Remark where the store is and come back later when not carrying. As far as not spending money at these establishments it may be the fact that they have fallen pray to the old saying "guns breed violence". I, myself have changed more than four store owners opinions about that little sign. Because I open carry except in their store. There I only have on my holster. I am very polite. Answering all questions to the best of my ability. But by far I don't care if they have that sign or not. They are just trying to make a living like you and me. So swallow your damn stupid pride and disarm for the little bit of time that you will be in the store and help that person feed his family.
    If the store owner questions if you are carrying show him your empty holster. Put his fears to rest. Kindness goes both ways. Maybe by being polite he may very well take that sign down once he gets to know one or two people that cc and or oc.

    So instead of slamming that store owner for not letting firearms in, try seeing it from their point of view?

    Any body else out there think this way?

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    Well...totally not where I was going as I'm sure you know.

    That said, I'm all for trying to change minds. I don't tend to excel as a persuasive speaker, however. If it was mom & pop shops I ran across, I'd be a bit more willing to try. Although my hypothetical referenced a place that sounded mom-and-popish, I was thinking more along the lines of places that are posted as part of "corporate decision" where winning 1 heart and mind won't do much (and in fact the local folks often disagree with the policy but it's not their choice). In one case relevant to me I carried at a car dealership (where we've bought in the past) a couple of times before I noticed their posting. Since seeing it, I haven't gone back, but as it's part of a management decision from the auto group as a whole, striking up a conversation with local management won't do much.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teej View Post
    Well...totally not where I was going as I'm sure you know.

    That said, I'm all for trying to change minds. I don't tend to excel as a persuasive speaker, however. If it was mom & pop shops I ran across, I'd be a bit more willing to try. Although my hypothetical referenced a place that sounded mom-and-popish, I was thinking more along the lines of places that are posted as part of "corporate decision" where winning 1 heart and mind won't do much (and in fact the local folks often disagree with the policy but it's not their choice). In one case relevant to me I carried at a car dealership (where we've bought in the past) a couple of times before I noticed their posting. Since seeing it, I haven't gone back, but as it's part of a management decision from the auto group as a whole, striking up a conversation with local management won't do much.
    Let's keep all this simple

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpmfan43 View Post
    First of all. If "John Doe" likes what he sees in the window, but notices the no firearms placard. Remark where the store is and come back later when not carrying. As far as not spending money at these establishments it may be the fact that they have fallen pray to the old saying "guns breed violence". I, myself have changed more than four store owners opinions about that little sign. Because I open carry except in their store. There I only have on my holster. I am very polite. Answering all questions to the best of my ability. But by far I don't care if they have that sign or not. They are just trying to make a living like you and me. So swallow your damn stupid pride and disarm for the little bit of time that you will be in the store and help that person feed his family.
    If the store owner questions if you are carrying show him your empty holster. Put his fears to rest. Kindness goes both ways. Maybe by being polite he may very well take that sign down once he gets to know one or two people that cc and or oc.

    So instead of slamming that store owner for not letting firearms in, try seeing it from their point of view?

    Any body else out there think this way?

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    I shop the half price book store with the wife all the time.. once I'm done my side arm is back on my hip.

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    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rpmfan43
    I don't care if they have that sign or not. They are just trying to make a living like you and me. So swallow your damn stupid pride and disarm for the little bit of time that you will be in the store and help that person feed his family.
    If I have no other place to buy whatever it is I'm after, I will use a posted store.
    But I'm sure to say something to the manager, or complain to corporate.
    Usually I can find a friendlier place to do business.
    Your excuse of "he's trying to feed his family" sounds a lot like "I'm just doing my job", which we hear from crooked cops.
    If he's interested in making money, he should not be turning away customers.
    Also, by posting he's given up his immunity from liability, which could potentially cost him LOTS of money.
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    Quote Originally Posted by rpmfan43 View Post
    First of all. If "John Doe" likes what he sees in the window, but notices the no firearms placard. Remark where the store is and come back later when not carrying. As far as not spending money at these establishments it may be the fact that they have fallen pray to the old saying "guns breed violence". I, myself have changed more than four store owners opinions about that little sign. Because I open carry except in their store. There I only have on my holster. I am very polite. Answering all questions to the best of my ability. But by far I don't care if they have that sign or not. They are just trying to make a living like you and me. So swallow your damn stupid pride and disarm for the little bit of time that you will be in the store and help that person feed his family.
    If the store owner questions if you are carrying show him your empty holster. Put his fears to rest. Kindness goes both ways. Maybe by being polite he may very well take that sign down once he gets to know one or two people that cc and or oc.

    So instead of slamming that store owner for not letting firearms in, try seeing it from their point of view?

    Any body else out there think this way?

    Sent from my SCH-R530U using Tapatalk
    You betcha. Reasonable and responsible Wisconsin firearms owners far outnumber the fanatics who are constantly complaining about store owners who have every right to post their business.

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    Carrying into a posted business, while illegal, is not a "crime" as defined by Wisconsin state law (Ordinance violations and State Forfeitures are not misdemeanors or felonies). If you drove so much as 1 mile over the posted speed limit on the way to the business you already broke the law (but did not commit a crime).

    If properly concealed the only way anyone would ever know about it is if you had to defend yourself, and in that situation would you really give a rats fat behind about a stupid fine? Remember the guy that carried into Aldi? No charges and every Aldi I go in to removed their posting! Had he not ignored the signs he could have ended up as a law abiding citizen in a casket!

    This is just food for thought. I'm in no way encouraging anyone to break the law. Stay the hell out of any posted business and let them know why they will not be getting any of your money. If you absolutely, positively MUST go into a posted business do some deep reflection as to what is more important: your life and safety or their property right to place your life & safety in potential jeopardy!

    None of the Founding Fathers BTW were "law abiding citizens".

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    Well, I had gone the long way around it in the original post, but the gist of it was that I _do_ make every effort to respect business wishes and not break the law. However, there have been times when I've found myself carrying in a place that was posted because the posting was at least questionable if not downright insufficient.

    But let's say for the sake of argument let's say I'm in a posted Applebee's and hadn't noticed the sign (For the record, given the way this thread has turned, I _am_ aware applebee's is posted, and I do on occasion still eat there...unarmed. Not as often as I used to, but still...sometimes it's what the wife really wants. (shrug)). So again, assume for the moment I'm carrying in Applebees. IWB @ 4:00. For what it's worth, I choose to conceal, but as I am not deliberately doing so where I'm prohibited, I usually don't go to extreme measures to avoid revealing it since concealment isn't required.

    I drop my napkin and carelessly bend over to pick it up making a big lump in the back of my shirt. Manager sees it and suspects (or flat out recognizes) that it's probably a gun.

    Is that enough to justify calling the cops? Is that RAS for an "investigative detention"?

    For that matter...what if there's a cop at the next table and sees the lump (but no part of the gun or even holster clips are revealed, just a lump that could be a phone, insulin pump, holter monitor, whatever)

    All of this assuming I'm my normal, quiet, mild-mannered self not otherwise drawing attention. Just slipped and printed.

    I had gone about it differently, but that was where I was trying to go with the initial post. I deliberately phrased it as someone blatantly ignoring "the sign", but...

    Another way of asking what I'm getting at:

    Is there a track record yet of otherwise law-abiding carriers getting "caught" concealing in prohibited locations? What's been the normal "flow"? Is it the manager saying "Excuse me sir, it looks like you're armed. If you are, please leave." and calling the cops if you don't? Or are they calling at first suspicion, cop shows up "Sir, do you have a firearm?" "Am I being detained?" "Yes. Do you have a firearm?"

    The Class B Forf. is "Not more than $1,000"....what are (again, otherwise) law abiding people actually seeing as a fine, the full boat? Warning for first offense?

    (And as a side note to anyone out of state - I am _specifically_ talking about Wisconsin, where the sign itself, assuming it's properly posted, does carry "weight of law" as opposed to some states where the sign has no legal weight).
    Last edited by Teej; 01-17-2014 at 02:36 PM.
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  10. #10
    Campaign Veteran Running Wolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teej View Post
    Well, I had gone the long way around it in the original post, but the gist of it was that I _do_ make every effort to respect business wishes and not break the law. However, there have been times when I've found myself carrying in a place that was posted because the posting was at least questionable if not downright insufficient.

    But let's say for the sake of argument let's say I'm in a posted Applebee's and hadn't noticed the sign (For the record, given the way this thread has turned, I _am_ aware applebee's is posted, and I do on occasion still eat there...unarmed. Not as often as I used to, but still...sometimes it's what the wife really wants. (shrug)). So again, assume for the moment I'm carrying in Applebees. IWB @ 4:00. For what it's worth, I choose to conceal, but as I am not deliberately doing so where I'm prohibited, I usually don't go to extreme measures to avoid revealing it since concealment isn't required.

    I drop my napkin and carelessly bend over to pick it up making a big lump in the back of my shirt. Manager sees it and suspects (or flat out recognizes) that it's probably a gun.

    Is that enough to justify calling the cops? Is that RAS for an "investigative detention"?

    For that matter...what if there's a cop at the next table and sees the lump (but no part of the gun or even holster clips are revealed, just a lump that could be a phone, insulin pump, holter monitor, whatever)

    All of this assuming I'm my normal, quiet, mild-mannered self not otherwise drawing attention. Just slipped and printed.

    I had gone about it differently, but that was where I was trying to go with the initial post. I deliberately phrased it as someone blatantly ignoring "the sign", but...

    Another way of asking what I'm getting at:

    Is there a track record yet of otherwise law-abiding carriers getting "caught" concealing in prohibited locations? What's been the normal "flow"? Is it the manager saying "Excuse me sir, it looks like you're armed. If you are, please leave." and calling the cops if you don't? Or are they calling at first suspicion, cop shows up "Sir, do you have a firearm?" "Am I being detained?" "Yes. Do you have a firearm?"

    The Class B Forf. is "Not more than $1,000"....what are (again, otherwise) law abiding people actually seeing as a fine, the full boat? Warning for first offense?

    (And as a side note to anyone out of state - I am _specifically_ talking about Wisconsin, where the sign itself, assuming it's properly posted, does carry "weight of law" as opposed to some states where the sign has no legal weight).
    IANAL. I believe a posted business and a "prohibited location" are two different things. In the Applbees scenario the manager could ask you to leave. If you refuse then you are trespassing and he can call the police. As I understand it, a local business can ask you to leave for any reason, even unlawful ones. The way I see it, a no guns sign is a statement of company policy, not law. My bank has a sign on the door indicating customers are not allowed to wear hoodies, but I wouldn't hesitate to enter the building wearing a hoodie. They could ask me to leave, but they couldn't, legally, simply observe my hoodie and call the police.

    On a side note; I wonder if there has been an uptick in the number of "man with a hoodie" calls to the police lately . . .
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    Well... IAANAL but imho the difference is there's not a specific statute specifying a penalty for violating a no hoodie policy. There is for entering a posted location with a firearm.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Running Wolf View Post
    IANAL. I believe a posted business and a "prohibited location" are two different things.
    This is correct, at least here in Wisconsin. Carrying into a mini-mart that is posted is a state forfeiture, a non-criminal charge. Carrying into a court house is far more severe.

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    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Running Wolf
    In the Applbees scenario the manager could ask you to leave.
    If you refuse then you are trespassing and he can call the police.
    He doesn't even have to ask you to leave.
    The sign on the door was your notice that they don't want your kind in their establishment, and while I'm going to guess that a good number of managers would ask you to leave there are probably some panty-wetters who wouldn't approach such a dangerous person, and some corporate policies telling them not to approach and to call police.

    The police could quite rightly write you a ticket for up to $1000 for trespassing. (And inform you of company policy and tell you that the company doesn't want you to come back.)

    Since it's not a crime they shouldn't be able to steal your property or arrest you, but I will defer to the expertise & experience of pkbites in that area. (And know that in Milwaukee city, they are likely to make the ordeal as difficult as possible. AMHIK)

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    Quote Originally Posted by MKEgal View Post
    He doesn't even have to ask you to leave.
    The sign on the door was your notice that they don't want your kind in their establishment, and while I'm going to guess that a good number of managers would ask you to leave there are probably some panty-wetters who wouldn't approach such a dangerous person, and some corporate policies telling them not to approach and to call police.

    The police could quite rightly write you a ticket for up to $1000 for trespassing. (And inform you of company policy and tell you that the company doesn't want you to come back.)

    Since it's not a crime they shouldn't be able to steal your property or arrest you, but I will defer to the expertise & experience of pkbites in that area. (And know that in Milwaukee city, they are likely to make the ordeal as difficult as possible. AMHIK)
    I typically respect the business owner's wishes, I feel they have a right to set policies for their establishment, even short-sighted policies that I disagree with. I usually respect them by avoiding their establishments. I see I've underestimated the power, for lack of a better word, a NGA sign can wield. Thanks for pointing that out.
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