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Thread: Draw time

  1. #1
    Regular Member stealthyeliminator's Avatar
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    Draw time

    Ok, I keep hearing this by opponents to open carry, and I just want to scream ******** every time I do. I don't understand how someone could be so, what I'd call plain ignorant, about something as critical as self defense. Please tell me if I'm wrong.

    This article basically dismisses the whole draw time argument to focus on another point. But at the beginning it does mention draw/deployment time. http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/201...of-open-carry/

    People say and say again how draw time reduction by OCing can be small. Ok, that may be true. But then they conclude that the "small" reduction in draw time is negligible. Wait, what? How is ANY DRAW TIME REDUCTION NEGLIGIBLE? How is ANY SKILL INCREASE NEGLIGIBLE? I don't understand how anyone who has managed to keep their head out of their ass can come to the conclusion that in the realm of self defense any benefit or advantage can be considered negligible, even if it's a mere fraction of a second difference in draw time. Am I wrong?
    Last edited by stealthyeliminator; 01-16-2014 at 06:39 PM.
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  2. #2
    Regular Member KRM59's Avatar
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    I can only speak from my own practice regiment both oc and cc, but i find the draw time more than any so called negligible. But on another note it depends on my attire, summer or winter. Winter clothes seem to add a different level in access when cc. But like i said this is just my personal practice.
    "To disarm the people is the most effectual way to enslave them."
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  3. #3
    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    Let me see if I have a handle on this...
    Because an expert who practices hours, days, weeks, months and years to acquire a certain skill set can something, I, who hasn't practiced should be able to do much the same?

    Because Andy Goodfellah can ride a stock Hondasaki 9/10ths as fast as he can a race-prepped Hondasaki, I should be able to ride my street stock Hondasaki with comparable speed and skill although all my fast riding is once a month up on the mountains and maybe 5-10mph over the limit?
    Last edited by Fallschirmjäger; 01-16-2014 at 07:48 PM.

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    I stopped reading at "Rob Pincus"....

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    Activist Member golddigger14s's Avatar
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    Even if OC, and CC draw time is exactly the same, I think OC wins. With OC you have deterrence, and the need to draw being eliminated entirely. With CC the BG doesn't know you have a gun till forced to draw. Once you have to draw is when everything is about to go to hell. As stated in the article: "Another frequently overlooked point: the more people open carrying in a given location the more effective the deterrent."
    "The beauty of the Second Amenment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it." Thomas Jefferson
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  6. #6
    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    Wouldn't "CC is better than OC because the criminals won't be able to tell who is armed and who isn't and so will be more reluctant to commit crimes due to the ambiguity" analogous to "Plainclothes police are superior to uniformed police because the criminals won't be able to tell who is an officer and who isn't and so will be more reluctant to commit crimes due to the ambiguity."

    And for that matter, "CC is safer than OC because OC guys will be the be shot first" could easily be rephrased as, "plain clothes are safer than uniformed because the criminals won't know who to shoot first."

    Sorry, but uniforms and openly carried arms both serve the same purpose, and have commensurate risks.

  7. #7
    Activist Member golddigger14s's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fallschirmjäger View Post
    Wouldn't "CC is better than OC because the criminals won't be able to tell who is armed and who isn't and so will be more reluctant to commit crimes due to the ambiguity" analogous to "Plainclothes police are superior to uniformed police because the criminals won't be able to tell who is an officer and who isn't and so will be more reluctant to commit crimes due to the ambiguity."

    And for that matter, "CC is safer than OC because OC guys will be the be shot first" could easily be rephrased as, "plain clothes are safer than uniformed because the criminals won't know who to shoot first."

    Sorry, but uniforms and openly carried arms both serve the same purpose, and have commensurate risks.
    This response will make you a hero on "USA CARRY" forum, I hope you're being sarcastic.
    "The beauty of the Second Amenment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it." Thomas Jefferson
    "Evil often triumphs, but never conquers." Joseph Roux
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  8. #8
    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Draw time that is too slow is measured by the lead ripping though you as the other guy shoots first. This can be a nano second, every advantage in a fight can mean life or death.
    It is well that war is so terrible – otherwise we would grow too fond of it.
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    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by golddigger14s View Post
    This response will make you a hero on "USA CARRY" forum, I hope you're being sarcastic.
    Nope, I was being satirical. But, the heart of the matter is the same..
    What is the main purpose behind the police dressing in distinctive costume and driving distinctively painted, easily visible cars?
    Is the purpose to warn criminal of the presence of police? Or,
    Is the purpose to deter crime by making the presence of police know far and wide?

  10. #10
    Regular Member stealthyeliminator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    Draw time that is too slow is measured by the lead ripping though you as the other guy shoots first. This can be a nano second, every advantage in a fight can mean life or death.
    Thank you...

    My thoughts exactly... I guess I'm not crazy after all. I'm amazed that someone can get on youtube, or write an article for mass dissemination, and say that some, any, self defense advantage is negligible. How can they take themselves seriously... How can anyone else take them seriously...
    Advocate freedom please

  11. #11
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    My OC draw time is reliably under a second. My CC draw time, not so much.

    OC, I never snag the cover garment and have to adjust my grip for a "penalty" draw time.

  12. #12
    Regular Member MyWifeSaidYes's Avatar
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    I don't own a shot timer, but my kids tell me my first shot comes at 1.0 to 1.2 seconds when I do my "arms full" drill.

    I cradle a 2-liter bottle full of water in each arm. On signal (my kids with the stopwatch yelling "Go"), I drop both bottles, draw and try to double-tap, I mean, shoot an accelerated pair at a 9" target at 21 feet.

    That's when I open carry.

    Trying to do this drill while concealed adds a full second or more.

    That ain't negligible.
    ------------------------------------------------------------
    What does a caring, sensitive person feel when they are forced to use a handgun to stop a threat?

    Recoil.

  13. #13
    Activist Member golddigger14s's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MyWifeSaidYes View Post
    I don't own a shot timer, but my kids tell me my first shot comes at 1.0 to 1.2 seconds when I do my "arms full" drill.

    I cradle a 2-liter bottle full of water in each arm. On signal (my kids with the stopwatch yelling "Go"), I drop both bottles, draw and try to double-tap, I mean, shoot an accelerated pair at a 9" target at 21 feet.

    That's when I open carry.

    Trying to do this drill while concealed adds a full second or more.

    That ain't negligible.
    If you have an Android there is a free app called IPSC Shot for a timer. There are some apps for that phone that is a fruit also.
    "The beauty of the Second Amenment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it." Thomas Jefferson
    "Evil often triumphs, but never conquers." Joseph Roux
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    Quote Originally Posted by MyWifeSaidYes View Post
    I don't own a shot timer, but my kids tell me my first shot comes at 1.0 to 1.2 seconds when I do my "arms full" drill.

    I cradle a 2-liter bottle full of water in each arm. On signal (my kids with the stopwatch yelling "Go"), I drop both bottles, draw and try to double-tap, I mean, shoot an accelerated pair at a 9" target at 21 feet.

    That's when I open carry.

    Trying to do this drill while concealed adds a full second or more.

    That ain't negligible.
    How about with your head holster? Might be faster!

    David



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  15. #15
    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    While the ideal difference in draw time may be minimal (although it likely is not), that says nothing about the likelihood of non-idealities interfering with the practiced movement.

    Anyone who has honestly tried both must conclude than CC offers infinitely more opportunity for a minor change in apparel to screw up a well-practiced draw stroke.

    Whereas (for me, at any rate), OC is consistent across each and every draw, independent of dress or weather or anything else.
    Last edited by marshaul; 01-30-2014 at 02:57 PM.

  16. #16
    Regular Member MyWifeSaidYes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by golddigger14s
    If you have an Android there is a free app called IPSC Shot for a timer.
    A few years ago, I forced myself to go back to a dumb phone. I did, however, have my son download that app.

    Do you know if there is one that will give you a start beep, preferably randomized after pushing the start button?


    Quote Originally Posted by flhrci
    How about with your head holster? Might be faster!
    The problems are that, on quickly reaching for my gun, I smack myself in the face too hard and fall down.

    If I manage to retain consciousness, upon drawing the gun, I tend to catch my glasses and fling them like a funny looking throwing star.

    That causes the serious problem of the sunlight focusing through the lenses and setting the target on fire.

    Now, for a human target, I guess that wouldn't be bad, but I tend to practice shooting at paper targets...on a wooden stand...in a forest.

    Man, you should see the way squirrels look at me now.

    It's worse than the way people look at me when I have a gun duct taped to my head.





    ------------------------------------------------------------
    What does a caring, sensitive person feel when they are forced to use a handgun to stop a threat?

    Recoil.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MyWifeSaidYes View Post
    A few years ago, I forced myself to go back to a dumb phone. I did, however, have my son download that app.

    Do you know if there is one that will give you a start beep, preferably randomized after pushing the start button?




    The problems are that, on quickly reaching for my gun, I smack myself in the face too hard and fall down.

    If I manage to retain consciousness, upon drawing the gun, I tend to catch my glasses and fling them like a funny looking throwing star.

    That causes the serious problem of the sunlight focusing through the lenses and setting the target on fire.

    Now, for a human target, I guess that wouldn't be bad, but I tend to practice shooting at paper targets...on a wooden stand...in a forest.

    Man, you should see the way squirrels look at me now.

    It's worse than the way people look at me when I have a gun duct taped to my head.





    Thanks for that nice slapstick visual...you owe me a new, coffee stain-free monitor!

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    Some also like to forget the number of steps it takes to draw while concealed.

    CC:
    1) Discern threat.
    2) Clear hands.
    3) Clear concealment garment (sometimes requires two hands).
    4) Obtain grip on firearm.
    5) Disengage retention measures.
    6) Draw firearm.

    OC doesn't require number 3 and NEVER requires two hands to draw.

    It is thus *scientifically impossible for one to draw from concealment as quickly as one can draw without concealment.

    *Presented without any actual science by yours truly.
    I carry everywhere because crime doesn't make appointments.

  19. #19
    Regular Member MyWifeSaidYes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silvertongue View Post
    Some also like to forget the number of steps it takes to draw while concealed.

    CC:
    1) Discern threat.
    2) Clear hands.
    3) Clear concealment garment (sometimes requires two hands).
    4) Obtain grip on firearm.
    5) Disengage retention measures.
    6) Draw firearm.

    OC doesn't require number 3 and NEVER requires two hands to draw....
    I do require 2 hands when carrying my Nagant in a hip holster...

    ...of course, it's a Mosin Nagant.



    Sorry. I've just had WAY too much coffee today.
    ------------------------------------------------------------
    What does a caring, sensitive person feel when they are forced to use a handgun to stop a threat?

    Recoil.

  20. #20
    Regular Member stealthyeliminator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silvertongue View Post
    Some also like to forget the number of steps it takes to draw while concealed.

    CC:
    1) Discern threat.
    2) Clear hands.
    3) Clear concealment garment (sometimes requires two hands).
    4) Obtain grip on firearm.
    5) Disengage retention measures.
    6) Draw firearm.

    OC doesn't require number 3 and NEVER requires two hands to draw.

    It is thus *scientifically impossible for one to draw from concealment as quickly as one can draw without concealment.

    *Presented without any actual science by yours truly.
    It's common sense, as they'd say...
    Advocate freedom please

  21. #21
    Regular Member MaxPower's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MyWifeSaidYes View Post
    A few years ago, I forced myself to go back to a dumb phone. I did, however, have my son download that app.

    Do you know if there is one that will give you a start beep, preferably randomized after pushing the start button?




    ...
    I use one called "Shot Timer" from Surefire. It has this feature.

    https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/shot...295005845?mt=8

  22. #22
    Activist Member golddigger14s's Avatar
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    The app I was talking about has the random start also.
    "The beauty of the Second Amenment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it." Thomas Jefferson
    "Evil often triumphs, but never conquers." Joseph Roux
    http://nwfood.shelfreliance.com

  23. #23
    Regular Member MyWifeSaidYes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by golddigger14s View Post
    The app I was talking about has the random start also.

    I didn't see any option to enable the random timer. This is what we downloaded: https://play.google.com/store/apps/d...?id=com.stimer

    I did find the sensitivity calibration. The app was registering every bump as a shot prior to calibration.

    When I hit the start button, the counter started.


    I just saw this on the app page:
    +Starts count before start signal
    Maybe I just needed to wait longer?
    ------------------------------------------------------------
    What does a caring, sensitive person feel when they are forced to use a handgun to stop a threat?

    Recoil.

  24. #24
    Regular Member MyWifeSaidYes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MaxPower View Post
    I use one called "Shot Timer" from Surefire. It has this feature.

    https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/shot...295005845?mt=8
    I will have my SIL download that one for me. My son's phone is Android and my SIL's is fruit.
    ------------------------------------------------------------
    What does a caring, sensitive person feel when they are forced to use a handgun to stop a threat?

    Recoil.

  25. #25
    Regular Member Rusty Young Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silvertongue View Post
    Some also like to forget the number of steps it takes to draw while concealed.

    CC:
    1) Discern threat.
    2) Clear hands.
    3) Clear concealment garment (sometimes requires two hands).
    4) Obtain grip on firearm.
    5) Disengage retention measures.
    6) Draw firearm.

    OC doesn't require number 3 and NEVER requires two hands to draw.

    It is thus *scientifically impossible for one to draw from concealment as quickly as one can draw without concealment.

    *Presented without any actual science by yours truly.
    [bolded for emphasis]
    THERE'S an idea. Why not carry out some professionaly-timed* drills that measure the time of CC and of OC (similar to the Tueller drills)?
    *Professionally, as in, done by someone of the scientific community who could then help you publish the results in respected journals dealing with something like psychology (or another of the "Social Sciences"). It could help someone down the line if they need scientific proof in court.

    I figure you would need:
    A sample size of about 100 or more individuals with roughly equal gender distribution, and across the age spectrum, with varying degrees of competency with firearms (from "none" to "recreational" "pro competitor", and even a few "military")
    A slate of holsters varying in retention levels to be used in both the CC and OC trials (to be fair)
    Blanks or Simunition to use in the firearm (for safety)
    "Casual" and "business" clothing (no "tacticool" or "competition" clothes) to keep the simulations near REAL-WORLD expectations
    I carry to defend my loved ones; Desensitizing and educating are secondary & tertiary reasons. Anything else is unintended.

    “Life, liberty, and property do not exist because men have made laws. On the contrary, it was the fact that life, liberty, and property existed beforehand that caused men to make laws in the first place.” - Frederic Bastiat

    "When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall one by one, an unpitied sacrifice in a contemptible struggle." - Edmund Burke

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