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Thread: Where is the due process? - vet loses 2A rights due to PTSD

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    Where is the due process? - vet loses 2A rights due to PTSD

    It is unbelievable what is happening to our vets. This war hero has had his 2A rights taken away because his wife handles the family's finances and he was labeled with PTSD.

    What is happening is that soldiers returning from deployment now receive a mental health evaluation immediately upon their return and every 6 months for the first 2 years thereafter (called the Montana model). Counselors probe for signs of stress, including anxieties, sleep disorders, family problems, and excessive alcohol use. It's a mandatory requirement, so it reduces the stigma of a soldier reaching out for help with an emotional or psychiatric disorder.

    Ronald Manderscheid, PhD, (a shrink) wrote that “… as many as 40% of vets returning from Iraq and Afghanistan will experience mental health or substance use conditions, and that at least half of these will have post traumatic stress disorder…”

    If true, 20% of all returning vets are being branded with the dreaded label of PTSD and losing their 2A rights WITHOUT DUE PROCESS. I predict there will be some kind of uprising by retired military if this continues. Could be the spark for a second American revolution. Just a prediction, not advocating such.


    "Feds Drop Bombshell On Veterans!
    January 16, 2014

    by Tim King and Jerry Freeman Salem-news.com

    When did serving your country become a crime?

    (MYRTLE CREEK, OR) – If Pat Kirby has his guns taken away by the federal government, then everyone else is probably going to eventually face the same thing. The clock is ticking. Pat Kirby is a decorated Oregon Vietnam Veteran with PTSD (Post Traumatic Stress Disorder). He never imagined he would receive a letter telling him he will have to turn over his guns, or face imprisonment.

    He is the ultimate expression of a law abiding American citizen. He served his country, worked hard to raise a family, and created a nice life in spite of his PTSD. But his comfort zone was jerked away when he was told he had to give up one of his most basic rights for the most unbelievable reasons.

    His crime?

    There was no crime. The Veterans Administration has deemed Mr. Kirby “incompetent” because his wife takes care of their finances. He has a good credit rating, he pays his taxes, he has never been arrested in his life, yet the federal government says will have to surrender his firearms and give up his Second Amendment right due to the VA’s designation of “incompetent”. His alleged incompetence is based on his own admission that he does not take care of his own finances."

    For full article and 4 minute video:

    http://www.redflagnews.com/headlines....3WEQzkNg.dpbs

    The 4 minute long video is worth watching.

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    Regular Member Primus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Augustin View Post
    It is unbelievable what is happening to our vets. This war hero has had his 2A rights taken away because his wife handles the family's finances and he was labeled with PTSD.

    What is happening is that soldiers returning from deployment now receive a mental health evaluation immediately upon their return and every 6 months for the first 2 years thereafter (called the Montana model). Counselors probe for signs of stress, including anxieties, sleep disorders, family problems, and excessive alcohol use. It's a mandatory requirement, so it reduces the stigma of a soldier reaching out for help with an emotional or psychiatric disorder.

    Ronald Manderscheid, PhD, (a shrink) wrote that “… as many as 40% of vets returning from Iraq and Afghanistan will experience mental health or substance use conditions, and that at least half of these will have post traumatic stress disorder…”

    If true, 20% of all returning vets are being branded with the dreaded label of PTSD and losing their 2A rights WITHOUT DUE PROCESS. I predict there will be some kind of uprising by retired military if this continues. Could be the spark for a second American revolution. Just a prediction, not advocating such.


    "Feds Drop Bombshell On Veterans!
    January 16, 2014

    by Tim King and Jerry Freeman Salem-news.com

    When did serving your country become a crime?

    (MYRTLE CREEK, OR) – If Pat Kirby has his guns taken away by the federal government, then everyone else is probably going to eventually face the same thing. The clock is ticking. Pat Kirby is a decorated Oregon Vietnam Veteran with PTSD (Post Traumatic Stress Disorder). He never imagined he would receive a letter telling him he will have to turn over his guns, or face imprisonment.

    He is the ultimate expression of a law abiding American citizen. He served his country, worked hard to raise a family, and created a nice life in spite of his PTSD. But his comfort zone was jerked away when he was told he had to give up one of his most basic rights for the most unbelievable reasons.

    His crime?

    There was no crime. The Veterans Administration has deemed Mr. Kirby “incompetent” because his wife takes care of their finances. He has a good credit rating, he pays his taxes, he has never been arrested in his life, yet the federal government says will have to surrender his firearms and give up his Second Amendment right due to the VA’s designation of “incompetent”. His alleged incompetence is based on his own admission that he does not take care of his own finances."

    For full article and 4 minute video:

    http://www.redflagnews.com/headlines....3WEQzkNg.dpbs

    The 4 minute long video is worth watching.
    Never heard of the Montana model. They made us sit with a counselor during demob. Never saw one again since I've been home for this exact reason.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Primus View Post
    Never heard of the Montana model. They made us sit with a counselor during demob. Never saw one again since I've been home for this exact reason.
    Well, here are a few links and quotes that might help you.

    http://www.truth-out.org/archive/ite...r-ptsd-and-tbi

    Quote, "Probably most important was that soldiers returning from deployment receive a mental health assessment every six months for the first two years after their return."

    http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/...y-suicides-iii

    Quote, "We have been working for years to develop better screening for signs of post-traumatic stress disorder, or PTSD, in our combat troops and veterans," said the bill's chief sponsor, Sen. Max Baucus, D-Mont. "The Montana National Guard led the way on this front with a successful pilot program. And in 2009 we passed a law to take the Montana model nationwide."

    http://www.arrowheadlodgerecovery.co...roach-for-men/

    Quote, "MONTANA Model: Integrated Recovery Approach for Men. MONTANA is an Acronym: Men Of New Thought And New Awareness"

    http://iava.org/press-room/press-cov...-treating-ptsd

    Quote, "Great Falls Tribune: Panel votes to adopt state's model for treating PTSD. Senator Max Baucus (D-Mont.) announced late Friday that the U.S. Senate Armed Services Committee voted unanimously in favor of an amendment to the defense authorization bill that would require adoption of a Montana model for assessing returning combat vets for post-traumatic stress disorder. The Post-Deployment Health Assessment Act (S.711) would require person-to-person assessments of all returning combat vets — active-duty, National Guard and Reserves — for the first two years after their return."

    Primus, a question for you please.

    When you said, "I've been home for this exact reason" are you saying that you were diagnosed with PTSD?

    If so, you might have already been placed on the prohibited possessor list or may be in the future. I HOPE NOT!

    This article claims that 127,000 vets have been disqualified.

    http://freedomoutpost.com/2013/02/co...-to-bear-arms/

    Quote, "Combat Veterans With PTSD or TBI Losing The Right to Bear Arms

    Politicians are introducing bills to disarm the very people that fought and risked their lives for our freedom and Bill of Rights. Over 127,000 Veterans have been placed on the Federal gun registry criminal check system because they have Post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) or a Traumatic Brain Injury (TBI). They are now unable to own a firearm. Only 185 of them have realized they are on this list. At least a felon has his day in court. Do these combat veterans not even deserve that? Of all the attacks lately on the right to bear arms, this is a new low."

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    Regular Member Primus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Augustin View Post
    Well, here are a few links and quotes that might help you.

    http://www.truth-out.org/archive/ite...r-ptsd-and-tbi

    Quote, "Probably most important was that soldiers returning from deployment receive a mental health assessment every six months for the first two years after their return."

    http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/...y-suicides-iii

    Quote, "We have been working for years to develop better screening for signs of post-traumatic stress disorder, or PTSD, in our combat troops and veterans," said the bill's chief sponsor, Sen. Max Baucus, D-Mont. "The Montana National Guard led the way on this front with a successful pilot program. And in 2009 we passed a law to take the Montana model nationwide."

    http://www.arrowheadlodgerecovery.co...roach-for-men/

    Quote, "MONTANA Model: Integrated Recovery Approach for Men. MONTANA is an Acronym: Men Of New Thought And New Awareness"

    http://iava.org/press-room/press-cov...-treating-ptsd

    Quote, "Great Falls Tribune: Panel votes to adopt state's model for treating PTSD. Senator Max Baucus (D-Mont.) announced late Friday that the U.S. Senate Armed Services Committee voted unanimously in favor of an amendment to the defense authorization bill that would require adoption of a Montana model for assessing returning combat vets for post-traumatic stress disorder. The Post-Deployment Health Assessment Act (S.711) would require person-to-person assessments of all returning combat vets — active-duty, National Guard and Reserves — for the first two years after their return."

    Primus, a question for you please.

    When you said, "I've been home for this exact reason" are you saying that you were diagnosed with PTSD?

    If so, you might have already been placed on the prohibited possessor list or may be in the future. I HOPE NOT!

    This article claims that 127,000 vets have been disqualified.

    http://freedomoutpost.com/2013/02/co...-to-bear-arms/

    Quote, "Combat Veterans With PTSD or TBI Losing The Right to Bear Arms

    Politicians are introducing bills to disarm the very people that fought and risked their lives for our freedom and Bill of Rights. Over 127,000 Veterans have been placed on the Federal gun registry criminal check system because they have Post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) or a Traumatic Brain Injury (TBI). They are now unable to own a firearm. Only 185 of them have realized they are on this list. At least a felon has his day in court. Do these combat veterans not even deserve that? Of all the attacks lately on the right to bear arms, this is a new low."
    Negative I was referring never been to a psych doctor since I've been home yo avoid being labeled anything. I came home after 19 1/2 mths in Iraq. I actually came back in early 2009 so that's probably why I never was forced to see anyone after coming back.

    Its a double edged sword. I've lost quiet a few guys in 2013 to suicide from my company and batalion. So on one hand you say how dare guys force them on a list or take away their guns but when your losing guys literally once a month to suicide by various means it beings it home. Hard.

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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Vets in NC have to have clean mental health check to qualify for a CHP. It is common knowledge and a complaint of many vets over these evaluations.
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    I wonder what rationale might have been used to deny the self-immolating Buddhist Monks their matches?

    http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/immolate#English
    Last edited by Nightmare; 01-17-2014 at 06:05 PM.
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    I'll have to dig to find the suicide rates for military compared to general population. This came up before and if I remember correctly the rates were not any higher than GP. Just another excuse for gun grabbers to confiscate guns.
    It is well that war is so terrible – otherwise we would grow too fond of it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Primus View Post
    Negative I was referring never been to a psych doctor since I've been home yo avoid being labeled anything. I came home after 19 1/2 mths in Iraq. I actually came back in early 2009 so that's probably why I never was forced to see anyone after coming back.

    Its a double edged sword. I've lost quiet a few guys in 2013 to suicide from my company and batalion. So on one hand you say how dare guys force them on a list or take away their guns but when your losing guys literally once a month to suicide by various means it beings it home. Hard.

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    Any chance you've been experiencing any despair, anxiety.....wondered how it can be that so many people dislike you.........
    Last edited by Fuller Malarkey; 01-17-2014 at 06:58 PM.
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    Regular Member Primus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fuller Malarkey View Post
    Any chance you've been experiencing any despair, anxiety.....wondered how it can be that so many people dislike you.........
    Lol oh yes fuller you nailed it... you and your 3 friends on here that don't like me have me so broken up and upset. Its a travesty.

    Lol thank you fuller I needed a laugh and you just provided it as usual.

    Now can we please get back to the thread topic? I think you've wrecked enough threads by doing exactly this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Primus View Post
    Negative I was referring never been to a psych doctor since I've been home yo avoid being labeled anything. I came home after 19 1/2 mths in Iraq. I actually came back in early 2009 so that's probably why I never was forced to see anyone after coming back.

    Its a double edged sword. I've lost quiet a few guys in 2013 to suicide from my company and batalion. So on one hand you say how dare guys force them on a list or take away their guns but when your losing guys literally once a month to suicide by various means it beings it home. Hard.
    Thats good news. I wasn't sure what you meant.

    It is most definitely true that suicide in military veterans is a huge problem. WalkingWolf said that the rates of suicide in the lilitary wasn't any higher than in the general public. The truth is that the suicide rate for vets far exceeds that of civilian population. Nearly one in five suicides nationally is a veteran. 49,000 took own lives between 2005 and 2011. The annual suicide rate among veterans is about 30 for every 100,000 of the population, compared to a civilian rate of about 14 per 100,000.

    But an even bigger problem is the profession of psychiatry is a phony pseudo-science that is nothing more than a way for big pharma to rake in billions of dollars.

    The sad truth is that modern psychiatry is in actuality one real life giant horror show, with veterans, senior citizens, adults, children, and even infants all being heavily medicated by an evil gang of big pharma-funded psychiatric doctors who are committing bloodcurdling crimes against humanity in the practice of their so-called "medicine."

    The rates of diagnosis of the major mental illness that were in the original DSM have increased significantly in recent years, with depression topping the list. According to published statistics, more than 10% of the U.S. population now suffers from depression. Over-diagnosing depression, led to millions of people being prescribed drugs to treat it, which resulted in literally billions in increased profits for the drug companies.

    The number of mental disorders identified in the manual has risen from 100 to over 300 in the last 15 years. That translated to a virtual epidemic of madness sweeping the country. Only a decade ago, psychiatrists said that “only” one in 10 Americans had a mental illness. Now, according to the DSM-IV-TR, more than half the population is mentally ill.

    Of course, the greater the number of mental illnesses in the manual justifies more psychiatrists, government involvement and funding, widespread drugging of the public, involuntary commitment, and even electric shock therapy and brain surgery. It’s a self-perpetuating leviathan. More disorders gives us more psychiatrists and increased funding of psychiatry, which results in the discovery of more disorders and the development of more psychoactive pharmaceuticals, which then gives us more disorders and more drugs, and round and round the merry-go-round goes.

    Once a vet or anybody else is diagnosed with PTSD, the only treatment available is counseling and the proscribing of psychotropic drugs.

    Most of the psychotropic drugs cause harmful short term and largely unknown long-term effects at the doses customarily given. These drugs and the pseudo-profession that promotes them are more a danger to one’s health than the disorders they claim to treat. There are no safe psychiatric drugs. Every new psychiatric drug gets heralded as the new safe wonder drug, yet always eventually is found to have severe harmful side effects, including addiction and withdrawal symptoms, among others.

    And psychiatrists grossly neglect to point out the potential harm of psychiatric drugs to their patients. Dangerous side effects occur in 50% or more of patients when used at normal dosages, and up to 100% when used at high dosages. Often the side effects are permanent with no known cure.

    Further, most of these drugs are known to actually cause suicide!!! It is printed right on the labels that suicide is one of the major side effects.

    There are many highly disturbing facts about psychiatric drugs, soldiers, and suicides. 33% of the U.S. Army is on prescription medications, and nearly a quarter of those are on psychotropic drugs. To date, the Pentagon has spent more than a billion dollars on psychiatric drugs, making it one of the largest customers of Big Pharma. There are now over 8,000 suicides each year by U.S. soldiers and veterans; that’s over 22 a day. 33% of those suicides are attributed to medication side effects. That means medications are killing more U.S. soldiers and veterans than Al-Qaeda. More active duty soldiers die from suicide than from combat.

    The mainstream media, and now our own legislatures, says the answer to lowing suicides of veterans is to take away their guns so that they cannot shoot themselves. This is the logical equivalent to trying to fix your car’s engine by removing the “check engine” light.

    The bottom line here is that everyone should be extremely careful what they say to not only a psychiatrist or psychologist, but also to their own primary physician and to every other health care professional. Avoid undergoing a mental health evaluation at all costs.
    Last edited by Augustin; 01-17-2014 at 10:00 PM.

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    http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworst...e-us-military/

    A Forbes article on Military suicide rate.

    http://www.worldmag.com/2013/01/mili...tional_average

    Although the military suicide rate has continued to rise, it remains below that of the civilian population, Pentagon officials say. According to figures released today, the civilian suicide rate for males aged 17-60 was 25 per 100,000 in 2010, the latest year for which such statistics are available. That compares with the military's rate in 2012 of 17.5 per 100,000.
    Last edited by WalkingWolf; 01-17-2014 at 09:34 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworst...e-us-military/

    A Forbes article on Military suicide rate.

    http://www.worldmag.com/2013/01/mili...tional_average

    Although the military suicide rate has continued to rise, it remains below that of the civilian population, Pentagon officials say. According to figures released today, the civilian suicide rate for males aged 17-60 was 25 per 100,000 in 2010, the latest year for which such statistics are available. That compares with the military's rate in 2012 of 17.5 per 100,000.
    WalkingWolf, Those articles are interesting (and I did read them both), but I think what is happening with these stats is that the comparison is between active military vs. veterans and other civilians combined. Many of the suicides are happening AFTER they return home to the U.S. So the stats are skewed when you lump returning vets with civilians.

    My main points are (1) that vets and others are being banned from gun ownership due to a diagnosis of PTSD and other disqualifiers, (2) that seeking help for depression and/or PTSD from a psychiatrist is an extremely poor solution considering that there are many less harmful naturopathic cures such as taking Vitamin D3, and (3) that the psychotropic drugs being prescribed for these mental health disorders are, in fact, the cause of the suicide epidemic in all people taking these harmful medications, or the drugs are exacerbating the conditions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    The lesson to be learned: don't join
    Ok... just have others fight for your country. Makes sense. "Not me all set" right?

    IMO it should be mandatory. You want your constitution all rights? Good. Step up and be willing to fight for them instead of just sitting the side lines and bashing those who do in one form or another.

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    Last edited by Primus; 01-17-2014 at 11:23 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Primus View Post
    Ok... just have others fight for your country. Makes sense. "Not me all set" right?

    IMO it should be mandatory. You want your constitution all rights? Good. Step up and be willing to fight for them instead of just sitting the side lines and bashing those who do in one form or another.

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    Regular Member Primus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    The military does not protect your constitutional rights; why people think it does is a mystery. The military can only take them away.
    Do you think you'd have your constitution all rights if/when Korea comes a knocking? What about japan? You think they would've let us keep them if we didn't step up after pearl harbor? What about the jihads now? Think if they had their way and collapsed the US wed keep any rights? I don't but buts that just my opinion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Primus View Post
    Do you think you'd have your constitution all rights if/when Korea comes a knocking? What about japan? You think they would've let us keep them if we didn't step up after pearl harbor? What about the jihads now? Think if they had their way and collapsed the US wed keep any rights? I don't but buts that just my opinion.

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    Yes, I think my rights would not be affected. I did not step up after Pearl Harbor. If it happens again, then we can talk about such a threat.

    N. Korea? You are not being serious are you?

    We have the two best armies in the world called the Atlantic and Pacific oceans. And all of us citizens with our rifles in our houses are able to take care of some invaders, yes?

    The question for you: Do you think you are more likely to be killed by: a) Koreans b) Russians c) some US/state/local gov't employee?

    Am I worried about some jihad? Not as much as being struck by lightning.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Primus View Post
    Ok... just have others fight for your country. Makes sense. "Not me all set" right?

    IMO it should be mandatory. You want your constitution all rights? Good. Step up and be willing to fight for them instead of just sitting the side lines and bashing those who do in one form or another.

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    That you would support conscription is not surprising. After all, why should FREE men be allowed a choice?

    Oh, and if you have to "earn" you rights, they aren't rights at all. Ever heard the word "inalienable"?

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    Regular Member Primus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    Yes, I think my rights would not be affected. I did not step up after Pearl Harbor. If it happens again, then we can talk about such a threat.

    N. Korea? You are not being serious are you?

    We have the two best armies in the world called the Atlantic and Pacific oceans. And all of us citizens with our rifles in our houses are able to take care of some invaders, yes?

    The question for you: Do you think you are more likely to be killed by: a) Koreans b) Russians c) some US/state/local gov't employee?

    Am I worried about some jihad? Not as much as being struck by lightning.
    Actually the way things are going probably Iran or some other middle eastern country. I try not to harbor conspiracy theories and I'm not really that worries but history shows the world can't go very long with some large conflict.

    And the only thing keeping one of then from simply sailing over here is our military. Land see and air components. I've seen first hand what our military can do to a city/country. Its some pretty insane stuff.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Primus View Post
    Actually the way things are going probably Iran or some other middle eastern country. I try not to harbor conspiracy theories and I'm not really that worries but history shows the world can't go very long with some large conflict.

    And the only thing keeping one of then from simply sailing over here is our military. Land see and air components. I've seen first hand what our military can do to a city/country. Its some pretty insane stuff.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PistolPackingMomma View Post
    That you would support conscription is not surprising. After all, why should FREE men be allowed a choice?

    Oh, and if you have to "earn" you rights, they aren't rights at all. Ever heard the word "inalienable"?
    Guess you've never heard the term "freedom isn't free".

    It is for those that sit at home. Its not for the guys that don't.

    While a big part of me is for mandatory service (like a 3 year stint like other countries do), I am porous of that fact we still have an all volunteer force. There's a certain pride in knowing all the guys in your platoon, company, battalion all signed up for the same crap. For different reasons obviously (school, money, health care, etc) but the end result is the same.

    Part of me just think its sad some military families take up the slack for others and have been for years. Oh well just opinion not even worth the .02.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Primus View Post
    Guess you've never heard the term "freedom isn't free".

    It is for those that sit at home. Its not for the guys that don't.

    While a big part of me is for mandatory service (like a 3 year stint like other countries do), I am porous of that fact we still have an all volunteer force. There's a certain pride in knowing all the guys in your platoon, company, battalion all signed up for the same crap. For different reasons obviously (school, money, health care, etc) but the end result is the same.

    Part of me just think its sad some military families take up the slack for others and have been for years. Oh well just opinion not even worth the .02.

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    You guess wrong; I have heard that saying. I like this one better "The price of freedom is eternal vigilance."

    Explain how mandatory service is not the antithesis of freedom.

  23. #23
    Regular Member Primus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PistolPackingMomma View Post
    You guess wrong; I have heard that saying. I like this one better "The price of freedom is eternal vigilance."

    Explain how mandatory service is not the antithesis of freedom.
    I don't have I have to explain anything. Its an opinion.

    But for the hell of it and because its something ive thought of for a while...

    As I said before there are clear threats to this country from the outside. What keeps them away is the military. So by partaking in the military even for a very short time (3 years or maybe even less) you have a direct hand in supporting your freedoms. Iran doesn't give two figs about our constitution or our natural rights.

    Also, a short stint in the military would allow a chance to learn skilled training (job specific) and basic training for when you get out. It would also keep our armed forces fresh.

    You do realize there are guys on 6 plus tours of overseas right? So its cool that they do 6 while some other able bodied guys sit home and play world of war craft? I personally don't think it is. Again just opinion no more no less.

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    "The wicked flee when no man persueth: but the righteous are as bold as a lion" Proverbs 28:1

  24. #24
    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    The clear threats to this country is the government. Anything from outside the borders of this country would not be a threat if? Wait for it! We minded our own business, and kept our nose to ourselves.
    It is well that war is so terrible – otherwise we would grow too fond of it.
    Robert E. Lee
    The patriot volunteer, fighting for country and his rights, makes the most reliable soldier on earth.
    Thomas Jonathan "Stonewall" Jackson
    What separates the winners from the losers is how a person reacts to each new twist of fate.
    President Donald Trump

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    The clear threats to this country is the government. Anything from outside the borders of this country would not be a threat if? Wait for it! We minded our own business, and kept our nose to ourselves.
    But, but, the foreigners want to take our rights to not self incriminate, to be free from unreasonable search and seizures, our right to due process...oh, wait, I'm thinking of politicians.
    But the foreigners are spying on us!...no, wait, that's the NSA.

    Who is endangering our freedoms again?

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