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Thread: Why do gun owners do this to new shooters.

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    Why do gun owners do this to new shooters.

    My wife and I with a couple of her friends went out shooting a few days ago. On the way to the range we stopped by the local gun store to get a few more boxes of ammo. While looking around I noticed a woman who had said she just got her CCW. She was looking for her first carry pistol, the dealer behind the counter and her significant other were pressuring her to buy a .380 when she made it known she wanted to hold and try out a few other guns. Yet her boyfriend and the dealer kept telling her she would not likely be able to handle any of these guns and that they really would perfer her to stick with the smaller .380.

    Before I could say anything my wife and her friends spoke up and gave both the dealer and her significant other a ear full. They asked her what caliber handgun did she fire for her CCW course. She said her boyfriend had her use his 22lr pistol for her class and that was the extent of her experience. My wife and her two friends who were with her showed her what they carried, one in 9mm, 40 S&W and my wife's 45ACP gun. They told her with practice that she would not have any problems carrying these calibers and they can be concealed with just as much ease with the proper holster. Needless to say my wife and I go to the range with a wide variety of handguns. My wife invited her to the range with us so she could find out for herself what she wanted. So at the end of the day my ears were burning not from the shooting but from all the chatter, yet at least the woman was given the chance to find out what she wanted. BTW her boyfriend did not join us and after how that dealer was treating her, we will no longer spend our money at his store. Are men really that big of A holes to preach that crap to a new shooter, no wonder it is a belief a lot of woman hold as fact with so many armchair commandos pushing that B.S. Also to add to the end of my rant she went with a Glock 40S&W later that day for her carry pistol. She was shooting it a hell of a lot better then I was.
    Last edited by zack991; 01-18-2014 at 02:58 AM.
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    Being a 20+ yr ffl .... I understand the dealer's viewpoint. He's agreeing with the guy because he may know more about her strength than anyone.

    And a .380 is not a bad choice ; shooting and controlling a gun at the range is much different than in a situation where you use it for its intended purpose.

    Although some .40 cals have similar weight and trigger pulls now-a-days but the recoil of a .40 is likely going to be noticeably greater than a .380. http://www.chuckhawks.com/handgun_recoil_table.htm

    I would be concerned with some women with their first gun being a .40 cal .... I would sell them what ever they wanted to buy .. just like that dealer did.

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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    Being a 20+ yr ffl .... I understand the dealer's viewpoint. He's agreeing with the guy because he may know more about her strength than anyone.

    And a .380 is not a bad choice ; shooting and controlling a gun at the range is much different than in a situation where you use it for its intended purpose.

    Although some .40 cals have similar weight and trigger pulls now-a-days but the recoil of a .40 is likely going to be noticeably greater than a .380. http://www.chuckhawks.com/handgun_recoil_table.htm

    I would be concerned with some women with their first gun being a .40 cal .... I would sell them what ever they wanted to buy .. just like that dealer did.
    There is a big difference between suggesting and giving advice then ramming a particular caliber at her and refusing to even allow her to speak in what she was wanting to hold and look at from her own research that she had done. We spent over 3 hours at the range that day and my wife and her two friends spent their time helping her to find something that she wanted. We had about 15 different handguns between the four of us from a .380 to 45ACP. She got more help from us that day then from the dealer looking to make a quick sale and a boyfriend who refused to even entertain her request. It is sad that so many people push small calibers or revolvers on new shooters instead of advising them to try as many as possible with proper instructions so they can decide what's best for them and not what dealers or men with mascalinity problems tell her she must carry. She had a lot more trigger time that day, more then I ever had when I first got into guns. New gun owners should be helped to find what feels right to them and us experienced gun owners need to stop this BS of shoving just tiny calibers at them. Give the new shooters as much in positive experience with different guns ad possible and not force them into a gun that may not be a good pick for them.
    Last edited by zack991; 01-18-2014 at 04:13 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by zack991 View Post
    There is a big difference between suggesting and giving advice then ramming a particular caliber at her and refusing to even allow her to speak in what she was wanting to hold and look at from her own research that she had done. We spent over 3 hours at the range that day and my wife and her two friends spent what their time finding something that she enjoys. We had about 15 different handguns between the four of us from. A .380 to a 45ACP was there and she got more help from us that day then the dealer looking to make a quick sale and a boyfriend who refused to even entertain her request.
    You should have got the profit difference between the two guns ... seems like you were very helpful to the lady.

    The boyfriend issue? He was likely just concerned about her safety although not being very nice about it. Hard to read people's minds.

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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    You should have got the profit difference between the two guns ... seems like you were very helpful to the lady.

    The boyfriend issue? He was likely just concerned about her safety although not being very nice about it. Hard to read people's minds.
    I do believe he had her best wishes in mind, yet I felt bad that no one was willing to give her any credic for the research that she had done on her own. She did have some valid questions that neither of them were willing to answer. I personaly believe any new gun owner should be able to try out as many different types of handguns and calibers as possible before jumping into their first gun. A lot more ammo was used that day then planned, as well as spending much more then I was planning to do at the range, yet it was worth it. I got stuck cleaning the guns while they all gabbed about their experiences with different guns. It was funny though she handled that 40 SW better then I could and I am the combat vet, lol. The 4 of them are planning on attending an adviced handgun course later this year.
    Last edited by zack991; 01-18-2014 at 04:16 AM.
    -I come in peace, I didn't bring artillery. But I am pleading with you with tears in my eyes: If you screw with me, I'll kill you all.
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    I can sympathize; got some horror stories of my own regarding gun shops and some very sexist, know it all attitudes.

    Good for you guys sticking up for her ability to make the choice. I've told numerous women and their men folk "if SHE doesn't like it, she won't shoot it."

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    A lot depends on who is buying the handgun. Most of us know from experience that when concealed carry is concerned that if the gun is cumbersome to conceal it will stay at home. This is not good, there is more chance anyone will carry a smaller gun concealed than a large frame gun. I assume your wife and you were open carrying, in that case one usually wants a gun as large as they can comfortably carry.

    Giving bad advice over spouse advice where it is none of your business is not good social skills to boot. When we are out we leave others alone. AND would never but into a non violent disagreement between a couple, I am shocked that you are bragging about this. I am certain if the girl A) Knew what she was doing. B) Did not want her BF's advice. That she was capable of handling her own.

    I always give advice to my wife when she asks for it. Lucky for your wife it was not mine, because she would have told her to butt OUT. Why is it people cannot resist sticking their nose into others business.
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    Lack of experience, lack of training preconceived ideas on what gun they should buy.

    The idea of I want the littlest gun that is easiest to hide lightest to carry. They don't under stand that the smallest guns can be very hard to shoot.

    Also remember that the dealer doesn't have the time to spend hours on the range giving his customers free ammo and guns to shoot.

    You did a good deed and help this woman out a lot. But add up all the costs involved a dealer would soon go broke doing this for all the customers that needed this kind of help.
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    Most dealers want to sell the most expensive gun they can get the customer to buy. The dealer unless they are a idiot almost always caters, rightfully so, to the person who actually pays for the gun. This was not the problem of the dealer or even the boyfriend, the girl had a mouth she could speak for herself. Again I think it is extremely rude, and maybe dangerous to stick a nose into the business of others.

    This my, and probably a lot of others issue with present day LEO's they are always sticking their nose into others lives. Just leave people alone. We all should be happy that the BF was concerned with her safety and supporting her in owning a firearm.

    BTW if I get a inexperienced seller behind the counter, the wife and I bicker about the guns we are looking at. It is a good way to drive down the price if you can convince the seller he has to drop the price to convince one party over another. It is liberals and progressives that believe they have to fix others, and save the world. And it always has the exact opposite effect.
    Last edited by WalkingWolf; 01-18-2014 at 08:53 AM.
    It is well that war is so terrible otherwise we would grow too fond of it.
    Robert E. Lee
    The patriot volunteer, fighting for country and his rights, makes the most reliable soldier on earth.
    Thomas Jonathan "Stonewall" Jackson
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firearms Iinstuctor View Post
    Lack of experience, lack of training preconceived ideas on what gun they should buy.

    The idea of I want the littlest gun that is easiest to hide lightest to carry. They don't under stand that the smallest guns can be very hard to shoot.

    Also remember that the dealer doesn't have the time to spend hours on the range giving his customers free ammo and guns to shoot.

    You did a good deed and help this woman out a lot. But add up all the costs involved a dealer would soon go broke doing this for all the customers that needed this kind of help.
    I was never implying that a dealer must do it for free, just don't be like those crooked car salesmen and lie and shove a item on a person just because you are looking for a quick sale. Being honest and giving real advice goes a lot further then being known as a dear that will do anything to get a sale.
    -I come in peace, I didn't bring artillery. But I am pleading with you with tears in my eyes: If you screw with me, I'll kill you all.
    -Be polite, be professional, but have a plan to kill everybody you meet.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firearms Iinstuctor View Post
    Lack of experience, lack of training preconceived ideas on what gun they should buy.

    The idea of I want the littlest gun that is easiest to hide lightest to carry. They don't under stand that the smallest guns can be very hard to shoot.

    Also remember that the dealer doesn't have the time to spend hours on the range giving his customers free ammo and guns to shoot.

    You did a good deed and help this woman out a lot. But add up all the costs involved a dealer would soon go broke doing this for all the customers that needed this kind of help.
    While I understand your point, I think what women want from dealers is just a little respect. I have been ignored until my husband joined me, told I can't and shouldn't get a 1911 in 9mm, that 9mm isn't a valid self defense caliber for women, that I should get a pink revolver with matching accessories (gag!), and gotten outright shock at gun shows when the ffls found out *I* was the one shopping and dragging my husband around.

    The dealer doesn't have to bend over backwards helping me, but treating me the same as a male customer would be nice.

    WalkingWolf, I agree with you 95%. I have been in situations where I will casually interject why or why not I didn't care for the gun the couple was considering. It was always done in a non intrusive manner, but every time we ended up getting into great discussions. They always appreciated input from another woman with experience shooting and concealing, and it was all very friendly.

    Is this true for everyone and every situation? Nope, but done appropriately, it can be well received.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post

    Giving bad advice over spouse advice where it is none of your business is not good social skills to boot. When we are out we leave others alone. AND would never but into a non violent disagreement between a couple, I am shocked that you are bragging about this. I am certain if the girl A) Knew what she was doing. B) Did not want her BF's advice. That she was capable of handling her own.

    I always give advice to my wife when she asks for it. Lucky for your wife it was not mine, because she would have told her to butt OUT. Why is it people cannot resist sticking their nose into others business.
    My wife and her friends respectfully asked her if they could give her some ideas that may workout for her as her first carry gun. None of them cut the dealer or her boyfriend off, that if she said no thank you they would have walked away with nothing more being said. Yet she was very receptive to what ideas they had and exchanged ideas because neither the dealer or the boyfriend would make any effort to discuss with her what she was wanting. The problem was the dealer was still trying to convince her to go with the deal of the week/month he had going when she was no longer facing him or taking to him. Even the young women told the dealer that she was getting the answers that she was looking for from him earlier from these other woman. She had asked him to please stop pushing those smaller guns on me, that I do not want that small of a firearm. I am not bragging about anything, just sharing the experience I had seen how a new shooter was looking for help and was being told how she could never be able to control those firearms because she was a woman. It is really disgusting that any gun owner would go that far to push a stereotype of what a person can or cant handle to make themselves act like a "expert" or showing off. She was wanting an actual conversation, not a sales pitch and pressure from people that she may have trusted for their advice as "experienced" gun owners. She was not getting it from them and when offered by other woman willing to give her some ideas she gladly took it. I stayed out of the event, no one was yelling or arguing with either party. What they told the dealer was that she was asking for help and you both refused to listen to what she was wanting advice on and you both were still trying to push the smaller gun on her that she made it clear she did not want.
    Last edited by zack991; 01-18-2014 at 10:18 AM.
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    Maybe your wife should have offered to pay for any gun she wanted?
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    My X-OL fired her state CCW qualification course of fire with my .40 H&K, then selected her Kel-Tec P-32 belly-gun all on her own. All I could do is give it a fluff&buff and tell her to practice. Y'all must differentiate a self-defense tool (gotten and forgotten) from your fun 'tool'.
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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    Maybe your wife should have offered to pay for any gun she wanted?
    Well who knows, I just ordered her anniversary gift she was wanting. Maybe I should be thankful it was a 500 dollar Ak and not a new ring. lol
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    Quote Originally Posted by zack991 View Post
    Well who knows, I just ordered her anniversary gift she was wanting. Maybe I should be thankful it was a 500 dollar Ak and not a new ring. lol
    What has that got to do with her butting in on another couple's purchase? Was she or was she not willing to pay for the girls gun?
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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    What has that got to do with her butting in on another couple's purchase? Was she or was she not willing to pay for the girls gun?
    We were certainly willing to pay for the range time and bullets to help her get a good idea of what she was wanting, so yes I would say we would have helped her in some way if she needed it. Later that day she had said she was the one paying for the gun if she found what she was looking for, that she had asked her boyfriend to come along only to help her shop for one, not contribute $ to buy one.
    Last edited by zack991; 01-18-2014 at 09:57 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by zack991 View Post
    We were certainly willing to pay for the range time and bullets to help her get a good idea of what she was wanting, so yes I would say we would have helped her in some way if she needed it. She was the one who was paying for the firearm I was told later on that day, that she had asked her boyfriend to come along only to help her find the right gun for her and he did nothing more then piss her off that day.
    It's simple if you want to stick your nose in, be willing to pay for her purchase. If she had the money all she had to do was say "I want this, here is the money". The dealer would have handed her the paperwork, processed the purchase and bingo blammo she walks out with a gun, any gun she wants. I never seen a dealer refuse to sell, and do not believe the dealer was in this case. Your wife stuck her nose in, and may have meant she got no gun at all. It would be completely understandable for her BF to tell her pay for it herself. Especially since it appears your wife drove wedge between them.

    If she asked the dealer for advice then he gave it. Advice is not always what you want to hear. If the BF was paying for the gun HE was the one making the choice no matter the dealer's advice or yours. Congrats if the girl is a victim unarmed you can pat your wife on the back.
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    One person "butting in" is anothers contributing to the conversation/knowledge.

    I tend to speak up - if it is not wanted by the participants, I stop.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    One person "butting in" is anothers contributing to the conversation/knowledge.

    I tend to speak up - if it is not wanted by the participants, I stop.
    The problem here is it was clearly not wanted by the BF. Yea anybody can stick their nose in and one party may take advantage of it. But here is my question, did the girl get her gun, I doubt it, and a 380 is better than no gun at all.

    Buying a gun is simple, in can be done at the LGS or online. You say "I want that one" then take out the wallet or purse. There is not dealer around that will refuse. The fact that the BF did not join them on the range is clear he was mad.

    Again all she had to do was pay for a gun. Women do it all the time, they buy cars, clothing, shoes, same things men do, even fishing gear, by taking out the money and paying for it.

    As a boat salesman like any other salesman, I catered to the person paying. When a woman came into the market when I was a butcher, if she said I want a two inch center round steak I sold it to her. If she asked if it would be tender then I told her the truth, not what she wanted to hear. Life is simple.

    The only time I give my opinion in public is when asked for it. And then I make sure all parties are on board. My wife is even more reserved than I, but she will get nasty when people butt in. I like that trait in her, I know she can stand up for herself. If the girl wanted a different gun all she had to do was stand up for herself and PAY FOR IT. Anybody that wants to intervene in such a purchase needs to whip out the credit card, cash, or check, otherwise they are just sticking their nose into someone's business.
    It is well that war is so terrible otherwise we would grow too fond of it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    One person "butting in" is anothers contributing to the conversation/knowledge.

    I tend to speak up - if it is not wanted by the participants, I stop.
    My wife and her friends who all conceal carry offered her some ideas and they would have had no issue with walking away if it was not wanted. Simply the dealer and boyfriend were dead set on convincing her to buy a smaller gun then what she was wanting and were not willing to help her find a gun she did like. They both kept downplaying the guns she was interested in and kept bring her back to the smaller guns. My wife had asked me if it would be ok to invite them to join us at the range. That maybe she would have found a gun she did like or at least get a better idea of what to expect in the different size firearms. She really liked the 9mm and 40 SW handguns, we forced nothing on her. We wanted to just give her a chance to get hands on with several different guns to help her decide and not feel pressured into buying one gun over the other. Nothing was forced on her and her boyfriend was invited to join us as well, but he had made other plans for the day he said.
    Last edited by zack991; 01-18-2014 at 10:34 AM.
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    -Be polite, be professional, but have a plan to kill everybody you meet.
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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    ... But here is my question, did the girl get her gun, I doubt it, and a 380 is better than no gun at all.
    +1 A .380 is much better than no gun at all.
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    Quote Originally Posted by zack991 View Post
    My wife and her friends who all conceal carry offered her some ideas and they would have had no issue with walking away if it was not wanted. Simply the dealer and boyfriend were dead set on convincing her to buy a smaller gun then what she was wanting. My wife had asked me if it would be ok to invite them to join us at the range. That maybe she would have found a gun she did like or at least get a better idea of what to expect in the different size fir arms. She really liked the 9mm and 40 SW handguns, we forced nothing on her. We wanted to just give her a chance to get hands on with several different guns to help her decide and not feel pressured into buying one gun over the other. Nothing was forced on her and her boyfriend was invited to join us as well, but he had made other plans for the day he said.
    Again if you want to intervene whip out the cash, otherwise it is none of your business. If the girl wanted any gun she could have bought it, as long as she was not a felon, and had the money. All the above is excuses. If she wanted to make a decision on her own her BF or the dealer was not stopping her. Abusive spouses, IMO, do not buy their spouse a gun.

    At the end of the day she went home unarmed. Bravo!
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    Experience is a good teacher. A bad experience, like buying the 'wrong' gun, is a better teacher. "Oh yes, Maggie, I tried one of those and it just hurt my hand to use it. It was just too small. Get a bigger boy friend!"
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    good job OP...we need to speak up more when we see these kind of injustices from greedy shop owners.

    several years ago i was not so nicely asked to leave certain firearm shop in FV NC because the clerk was pushing really hard on the female customer to buy an 'x' or 'n' frame revolver even tho the lady insisted she wanted to carry it in her purse 'discretely'.

    after my conversation with the lady and her male companion, they left the store in search of a basic firearm course and then an appropriate pistol to meet her needs. The manager at the time then decided to challenge me (error in judgement IMHO) for interfering with the clerk and after our 'discussion' was complete, he went and chastised the clerk.

    Grape, i am not so 'disengaging' when i see customer's being told, nah, this is the perfect firearm for you and the person is 5'2'', have small wrists and hands and the clerk hands them a large frame revolver. grrr...

    never ceases to amaze me why ffls do not provide some type 'free' training pgm as i am firm believer in advising ppl to take a training class, can be minimal, where you handle and shoot a myriad of firearms then and only then go out and search for your personal protection firearm.

    marketing ploy...hey customer... for 25$ take an hour seminar from our 'trained' professional, learn how to hold and shoot couple of rounds from a couple of guns and we will refund the 25$ off your purchase price.

    ipse
    I'm only human; I do what I can; I'm just a man; I do what I can; Don't put the blame on me; Don't put your blame on me ~ Rag'n'Bone Man.

    Please do not get confused between my personality & my attitude. My personality is who I am ~ my attitude depends on who you are and how you act.

    Remember always, do not judge someone because they sin differently than you do!

    Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please. Mark Twain

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