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Violating No Guns sign on private property a crime?

Freedom1Man

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Jan 14, 2012
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Greater Eastside Washington
Well, then why not just walk down a residential street and enter the first home that has a unlocked door. You have not broken a law until the owner of the private property asks you to leave.....right.

Common courtesy, not too common around here it seems, is to respect the owner's wishes. Not "looking" for a sign so as to have "plausible deniability" is disrespectful and rude.

I always look for signage. I will not patronize those businesses that ban my pistol.

A private residence is not generally open to the public.

I believe that your comment is of the derailing type.

AND you're not in Washington, so your input about the laws, rules, and regulations here in Washington are not quite as welcome.

http://www.ammoland.com/2013/12/strange-and-deceitful-new-anti-gun-tactics/#axzz2r8saVCi9
Apparently the gun haters have decided that since they can’t convince business owners to post anti-gun signs, maybe they should post the signs themselves.

After Oct 1st I started to look for posted signs at my favorite establishments. I frequently go to a local chicken wing place in Greensboro and last week I noticed a simple sicker that pictured a pistol with red circle and line through it. I took it as no firearms allowed.


Read more: http://www.ammoland.com/2013/12/strange-and-deceitful-new-anti-gun-tactics/#ixzz2r8sh7exc
Under Creative Commons License: Attribution
Follow us: @Ammoland on Twitter | Ammoland on Facebook

So given the activities of the anti-gun people, there is no reason to believe the sign even if posted.
 
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BigDave

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I respond to no gun signs in Washington State as I see No Shirts, No Shoes, No Service or the common We have the right to refuse service, which all require a request from the ownership, management or someone acting upon their behalf.

It is also been known that Law Enforcement in Washington State will not cite trespass until it can be documented that they have been previously been trespassed or refuse to leave once instructed to do so in the presence of law enforcement.

If you are going to open carry into a business with a posted sign then expect to be asked to leave which you must comply or possibly be arrested if you refuse, for trespass.
 

deanf

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It is also been known that Law Enforcement in Washington State will not cite trespass until it can be documented that they have been previously been trespassed or refuse to leave once instructed to do so in the presence of law enforcement.


Are you 100% sure about that?

The information in the article linked in the original post is attributed to the King County Sheriff's Office. They say carry into a business that is clearly posted is a crime. The reader must infer they would arrest. The article is from '09. The latest KCSO OC training bulletin I can find is from '06. Anyone know of a more recent version of the KCSO OC training bulletin?
 
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Batousaii

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Kitsap Co., Washington, USA
It is also been known that Law Enforcement in Washington State will not cite trespass until it can be documented that they have been previously been trespassed or refuse to leave once instructed to do so in the presence of law enforcement.
Are you 100% sure about that?
Yes.. I am.

- The Sheriff is counting on peoples ignorance and trust of media, infact he would be opening himself to liability should he persue this philosophy.
 
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Freedom1Man

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Yes.. I am.

- The Sheriff is counting on peoples ignorance and trust of media, infact he would be opening himself to liability should he persue this philosophy.

Bat, if I had not met you and talked to you many times, I would have told you that you are full of the brown sticky stuff. However, I will trust you this time and again until said trust burns me.
 

BigDave

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Are you 100% sure about that?

The information in the article linked in the original post is attributed to the King County Sheriff's Office. They say carry into a business that is clearly posted is a crime. The reader must infer they would arrest. The article is from '09. The latest KCSO OC training bulletin I can find is from '06. Anyone know of a more recent version of the KCSO OC training bulletin?[/COLOR]

Yes I'm sure.
When is the last time you or anyone has taken an article or a newsreport as factual and error free? That is worse then some here proclaim asking an officer for legal advice is simply foolish.

Simply reading the below RCW to enter or remain in a business is not a crime but only becomes a crime if you were told to leave by someone representing the store tells you to leave and you refuse to leave which could result in being cited or arrested for trespass, again signage has no weight of law this instance, simply just a rule of the owner or business.

" RCW 9A.52.070
Criminal trespass in the first degree.
(1) A person is guilty of criminal trespass in the first degree if he or she knowingly enters or remains unlawfully in a building.
(2) Criminal trespass in the first degree is a gross misdemeanor.


RCW 9A.52.080
Criminal trespass in the second degree.
(1) A person is guilty of criminal trespass in the second degree if he or she knowingly enters or remains unlawfully in or upon premises of another under circumstances not constituting criminal trespass in the first degree.
(2) Criminal trespass in the second degree is a misdemeanor."



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deanf

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Okay, pick a store of your choice, enter and get yourself thrown out and then refuse to leave and let us know how well that works out for you!


I agree. You misunderstand. We disagree on when carrying a gun into private property might be a crime.

It might be a crime (and is certainly unethical) if you pass notice that your gun is not allowed, and enter anyway.


 

sudden valley gunner

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Dec 13, 2008
Messages
16,674
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Whatcom County
Well, then why not just walk down a residential street and enter the first home that has a unlocked door. You have not broken a law until the owner of the private property asks you to leave.....right.

Common courtesy, not too common around here it seems, is to respect the owner's wishes. Not "looking" for a sign so as to have "plausible deniability" is disrespectful and rude.

I always look for signage. I will not patronize those businesses that ban my pistol.

A private residence is not generally open to the public.

I believe that your comment is of the derailing type.

AND you're not in Washington, so your input about the laws, rules, and regulations here in Washington are not quite as welcome.

http://www.ammoland.com/2013/12/strange-and-deceitful-new-anti-gun-tactics/#axzz2r8saVCi9


So given the activities of the anti-gun people, there is no reason to believe the sign even if posted.

I don't agree with his statement, but let's be curteous to our brothers and sisters from other states.

I am open to hear anyone's opinion on our state laws or any other matter, who knows often we can learn something from others who may not have vested interest or who may think more objectively.
 
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Grim_Night

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776
Location
Pierce County, Washington
I agree. You misunderstand. We disagree on when carrying a gun into private property might be a crime.
[/COLOR]
It might be a crime (and is certainly unethical) if you pass notice that your gun is not allowed, and enter anyway.



WE are not discussing ethics here. WE are discussing LAW. There is no law that says that "ignoring" a sign on private property open to the public that prohibits firearms/weapons is a crime. In Washington state, unless it is written in a law then it doesn't exist. Period. End of story. NO sign on private property which is open to the public holds the weight of law unless it is specifically backed up by LAW. Your original post was regarding LAW not ethics. We have explained the facts of LAW and you are now arguing ethics. I think this topic is done.
 

BigDave

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It might be a crime (and is certainly unethical) if you pass notice that your gun is not allowed, and enter anyway.

If you feel it might be a crime then cite what law you would be violating. It's not a firearms violation and not a trespass until you are asked or told to leave. If the signage had the weight of law it would be spelled out as such as laws are prohibitions and contain some exception and frankly I have not seen one relating this question.

I think it's more of you reading into this were there's nothing written.


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deanf

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I think it's more of you reading into this were there's nothing written.


Could not the same be said about your argument that in person notice from a representative of the owner is required?

It's not a firearms violation and not a trespass until you are asked or told to leave.


That's written where in the law?


 

davidmcbeth

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Jan 14, 2012
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earth's crust
No trespassing signs have no weight of law unless your access is blocked.

I believe the court case ruled that an open driveway/sidewalk to your front door is an implied invitation.

I wonder if the same principle would apply to businesses.

SVGunner is correct ... no trespassing signs do not cover driveway/sidewalks to you doors where people visit you.

A notice of trespass would..but you would be aware of such an instrument being served upon you.
 

J1MB0B

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Dec 15, 2011
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239
Location
Tacoma, Washington
Are you 100% sure about that?

The information in the article linked in the original post is attributed to the King County Sheriff's Office. They say carry into a business that is clearly posted is a crime. The reader must infer they would arrest. The article is from '09. The latest KCSO OC training bulletin I can find is from '06. Anyone know of a more recent version of the KCSO OC training bulletin?[/COLOR]

Taking legal advice from LEO is probably not a good idea. How many times have we heard a cop say its illegal to record them. It has already been established that they can lie to you.
 

mikeyb

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Joined
Feb 19, 2013
Messages
554
Location
Bothell
Well, not exactly

This still does not equate to it being a law... private business (or any private entity really) can not make laws, they make rules, and rules dont convert to laws because someone wants them to..

An example would be coming into a fast food restaurant and walking straight to the cashier and placing your order. And ignoring the five people in line. There's no law against cutting. There's no stated rule, however, the restaurant does ask that you take your place at the back of the line. A business rule does not make a law.

As stated before, OC/CC into a business can be prohibited by a business owner and punished through trespass laws. The actual act of carrying is not illegal (with the note exceptions written into law).

And to the "private residence" statement by the interloper... Seriously? Since when is private business the same as private residence?
 
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