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Anti-Gunners trying to cause fear again.

OC for ME

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 6, 2010
Messages
12,452
Location
White Oak Plantation
Bogus "study."

"Weapons that are stored unloaded and outside of the household seem to pose the lowest risk of suicide and homicide," they wrote. "As such avenues must be made available to promote this option, thereby focusing on the safety of the household and all members of the household."
Well, there ya go. Have your local LEA store your firearm for you, and they can bring it with them, to your home, so that you can defend yourself.

The flip side is not addressed because they were not attempting to address the reality of a firearm in the home preserving life. They will not subvert their agenda. Their agenda only needed some pliable statistics to validate their limited view of the world.

If those nitwits were my kids, I'd be demanding my money back from their respective "institutions of higher learning."
 

WalkingWolf

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 31, 2011
Messages
11,930
Location
North Carolina
Like I should give a poop how and why someone decides to end their life. Japan has a higher suicide rate than us, yet they are not allowed guns. Hmmmmmmm?
 

color of law

Accomplished Advocate
Joined
Oct 7, 2007
Messages
5,949
Location
Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
The United States ranks thirty-third (33) of WHO's 110 nations. I'm sure that some of those (110-33=) 77 nations with lower suicide rates than US are not allowed guns either, a poor correlation. Japan has a very different cultural attitude towards suicide, one that we might benefit from, particularly some less than useful members here and in Washington D.C.

http://www.who.int/mental_health/prevention/suicide_rates/en/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_rate
United Nations' figures!!!!! Give me a break.
 

Eeyore

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 25, 2007
Messages
551
Location
the meanest city in the stupidest state
Devil in the details, as usual

I heard an in-depth discussion on the radio about this study last week. The author being interviewed was much less hysterical than the media coverage. Like any study, it's important to take a close look at where their data is coming from. Once you know that, a lot of the conclusions won't be surprising.

In this case, they were looking at successful suicides. The key finding is that suicide is often an impulsive act. If your method is slow-acting, it gives time to reconsider, or for others to intervene, making it less likely to succeed. If your method travels at about 1000 ft/sec, not so much. This is common sense. "'The lethality of the weapons drives the increased risk of suicide and homicide completion,' they wrote. 'Firearms have very high case fatality rates, particularly in the case of suicide. Guns leave very little room for reconsideration of the choice to end a life.'" In other words, people who attempt suicide with a gun succeed more often than those who try other methods. Voila, we arrive at the conclusion that just having a gun increases your risk of [successful] suicide. This is arguably true, although it ignores a lot of other relevant issues. It's a logical extension that anything that would slow a person down would give more opportunity for reconsideration or intervention; having guns locked up and unloaded would definitely slow the person down. They weren't advocating that weapons not be stored in the home, they were just pointing out the logical connection.

The conclusions of this study aren't newsworthy in and of themselves, but they're vague enough that the antis can take it and run with it, making all sorts of assertions well beyond what the study's authors may have intended. The headline of the linked article ("Gun ownership tied to three-fold increase in suicide risk") is a great example of this; it's a hyped-up oversimplification. It makes it sound like guns somehow radiate evil that convinces people to commit suicide, but that's not at all what the study reported.

Also from the article: "Anglemyer's team also found about a two-fold increased risk of death from murder among people who had access to a gun, compared to those without access to firearms. For women, the increased risk of being killed was even higher." (emphasis added) Ask yourself, what sort of women might disproportionately possess a gun? Answer: women in danger (from abusive exes or stalkers, living in high-crime areas, working high-risk jobs, etc.) Did the studies consider this? Probably not. Would it affect the results? Probably, but we can't know if it wasn't in the study. Catch-22.

Like so many studies, the danger isn't from the study itself, it's what ideologues and ignorant policymakers might do with it.
 

eye95

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 6, 2010
Messages
13,524
Location
Fairborn, Ohio, USA
Based on your next to the last paragraph, we should also ask, does the increased rate of gun possession cause an increased risk of murder, or does the already existing increased risk of murder, cause and increased rate of gun possession?

Correlation says nothing about causation. Overly emotional people tend to jump to conclusions regarding causation when they learn of a correlation.
 

OC for ME

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 6, 2010
Messages
12,452
Location
White Oak Plantation
If all buildings and parking structures were no more than 12' tall there would be a very very very very very dramatic decrease in deaths from jumping off buildings. The study is crap, everybody knows this, and I suspect that the "owners" of the study know this. It is nothing but a liberal anti-liberty study conducted by three lawyers with a fax machine.
 

Cavalryman

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Jun 6, 2010
Messages
296
Location
Anchorage, Alaska
I heard an in-depth discussion on the radio about this study last week. The author being interviewed was much less hysterical than the media coverage. Like any study, it's important to take a close look at where their data is coming from. Once you know that, a lot of the conclusions won't be surprising.

In this case, they were looking at successful suicides. The key finding is that suicide is often an impulsive act. If your method is slow-acting, it gives time to reconsider, or for others to intervene, making it less likely to succeed. If your method travels at about 1000 ft/sec, not so much. This is common sense. "'The lethality of the weapons drives the increased risk of suicide and homicide completion,' they wrote. 'Firearms have very high case fatality rates, particularly in the case of suicide. Guns leave very little room for reconsideration of the choice to end a life.'" In other words, people who attempt suicide with a gun succeed more often than those who try other methods. Voila, we arrive at the conclusion that just having a gun increases your risk of [successful] suicide. This is arguably true, although it ignores a lot of other relevant issues. It's a logical extension that anything that would slow a person down would give more opportunity for reconsideration or intervention; having guns locked up and unloaded would definitely slow the person down. They weren't advocating that weapons not be stored in the home, they were just pointing out the logical connection.

The conclusions of this study aren't newsworthy in and of themselves, but they're vague enough that the antis can take it and run with it, making all sorts of assertions well beyond what the study's authors may have intended. The headline of the linked article ("Gun ownership tied to three-fold increase in suicide risk") is a great example of this; it's a hyped-up oversimplification. It makes it sound like guns somehow radiate evil that convinces people to commit suicide, but that's not at all what the study reported.

Also from the article: "Anglemyer's team also found about a two-fold increased risk of death from murder among people who had access to a gun, compared to those without access to firearms. For women, the increased risk of being killed was even higher." (emphasis added) Ask yourself, what sort of women might disproportionately possess a gun? Answer: women in danger (from abusive exes or stalkers, living in high-crime areas, working high-risk jobs, etc.) Did the studies consider this? Probably not. Would it affect the results? Probably, but we can't know if it wasn't in the study. Catch-22.

Like so many studies, the danger isn't from the study itself, it's what ideologues and ignorant policymakers might do with it.

Very nicely summarized, Eeyore! As a mental health professional, I have been following this issue for several years and your analysis is spot-on.
 

Cavalryman

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Jun 6, 2010
Messages
296
Location
Anchorage, Alaska
Based on your next to the last paragraph, we should also ask, does the increased rate of gun possession cause an increased risk of murder, or does the already existing increased risk of murder, cause and increased rate of gun possession?

Correlation says nothing about causation. Overly emotional people tend to jump to conclusions regarding causation when they learn of a correlation.

This issue has been studied and it is pretty clear that people with lifestyles which put them at risk of being murdered almost universally own firearms whereas firearm ownership in the population at large is a minority. When you compare like-to-like populations (i.e., white middle-class gun owners with white middle-class non-gun owners, or even inner city gun-owning gangbangers with inner city non-gun-owning gangbangers), the difference disappears.
 

papa bear

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 25, 2010
Messages
2,222
Location
mayberry, nc
it's hard to figure out what they mean. do they mean if you are a happy person you will suddenly get depressed and want to kill yourself. or are they saying if you are depress and will kill yourself any way you can find . you are more successful if you have a gun?

suicide Darwinism in action
 

solus

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 22, 2013
Messages
9,315
Location
here nc
a critical review of the original work,

it is interesting to note in this Meta analysis study the researchers started with 6.9K references and after removing 2.9K duplicates and 2.8K ‘clearly irrelevant references’ (no reference what constituted irrelevant), the researchers then closely reviewed 3.4K of ‘titles and abstracts’ (not the actual body of work) then selected 70 articles for full text review and then picked 15 observational studies which met their inclusion criteria. (pg 102)

The researcher’s review showed: “All but 1 of the 15 studies identified…reported significantly increased odds of death associated with firearm access.” (pg 105)

I am more concerned the researchers claim: “Furthermore, the National Research Council has acknowledged the difficulty in establishing firearm ownership in studies because of privacy and questionable legality concerns (28). As such, it recommended that researchers receive adequate access to data to trace firearms (28).” (pg 109).

not sure i believe researchers should be granted the ability to access data to trace firearm ownership.

a further comment regarding the studies they reviewed...some date back >15 years.

and eeyore, i am not sure how the article you referenced leap to some of their conclusions off the main research document.

ipse
 
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