Open Carry vs Concealed Carry? What about a compromise - Announced Carry?

In all the cases I have seen here, and all the cases I know of IRL, the only times they managed to actually "get" the carrier was when he was doing something, besides just carrying, that they (rightly or wrongly) claimed caused "alarm."

I would argue that wearing a shirt that informs folks of my carry status could not possibly warrant a reasonable person to become alarmed and, therefore, should not even justify a stop, let alone arrest or conviction. However, I have seen cases about which I'd say the same thing result in convictions--or at least being run through the ringer.

I would specifically warn against moving your gun from one place to another in your vehicle, pointing fingers at folks while armed, or slinging an AR on your back in addition to carrying your OC handgun while playing chess in a park with a homeless man. All of those will result in convictions, which may or may not stand on review.


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eye95 said:

UC is Unlicensed Carry. That is what the 2A is all about. Ohio almost has UC. A few (major) flaws: I need a license to carry in my car. I need a license to carry in a bar. I need a license to carry within 1000' of a school. Screw that! All infringements!


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This would make a fine start to a Dr. Seuss story.

There was the case of the younger guy in the airport that was arrested after stripping to his underwear revealing the 4th written on his chest. His charge was considered a protest and therefore protected. So the aforementioned idea may actually have some merit.

eye95 said:

No way I'll be a catalyst. Hell, I'll only be on OCDO a few more weeks at most before they unceremoniously dump my ass!

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could this considered suicide by moderator?

non-alcohol beverage for me

ipse

rtb47 said:

Where did I go wrong here? I was hoping to see some thoughtful discussion about what I call ANNOUNCED CARRY (AC). Some more thoughts on this:
1. You would be on much firmer ground with AC vs. OC against the law because now you have not only the 2nd amendment on your side, but the 1st Amendment as well. The courts would have a MUCH harder time doing anything against you because some stupid cop says the word ARMED on your back would "warrant alarm for the safety of other persons" (the law in WA state). You just say it is a 1st Amendment right. Even liberal activist judges like the 1st Amendment.
2. Having "ARMED DRIVER" in big letters on the back of your vehicle would really cut down on being tailgated.

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welcome to OC forum, you didn't do anything wrong, this is a thoughtful membership discussion of your topic...

i do wish to point out a flaw in your thought process as in parts of the USA, whether in the inner cities or out in the 'good olde boy redneck portions of the woods', having the term 'armed driver' on the back of your vehicle could invite someone to see how good of shot the driver actually is.

just saying...

ipse

MaxPower said:

This would make a fine start to a Dr. Seuss story.

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Would you carry in a boat?

Would you carry with a goat?

eye95 said:

Would you carry in a boat?

Would you carry with a goat?

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I would surely do both, hither and yon,

but presently now, just 'moving on'...



[...no, says eye95, for REAL this time, just moving on...]

.....if you are OC, what is the point of the shirt/sign?

Please don't think I'm dirty harry
Just because I open carry

What if someone tries to steal it?
Recite this poem and really feel it:

If you try to take my gun,
I'll shoot you with the other one.

When the bad guys attack
I'll shoot them in the head

And then keep on shooting
Until the threat is dead

...I mean, stopped.

OC for ME said:

Bad idea.....really bad idea. Go ahead and give it a shot. Get back to us as to how it goes. Ya never know.

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No picture = It didn't happen! Make sure you have your camera(s) running.

It's a compromise for rifle carriers, but an enhancement for pistol carriers

moonie said:

What experience do you have with this group of people that makes you think we are the type that compromise?

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If it makes you more comfortable you can think of this proposal as an enhancement of OC. There are basically 2 types of OCers: (1) Those who walk around with rifles on a sling, and (2) those who walk around with pistols in a holster. If you are in the latter category, then adding the word ARMED to the back of your jacket is not a compromise, but an enhancement. A pistol in a holster might not be noticed by someone sneaking up behind you in the dark, and so it is not much of a deterrent. You pistol might not be very noticeable at all and, so, if your intent is to encourage others to exercise their gun rights, your pistol is only minimally effective. Putting ARMED on your back makes you more noticeable and so, if you believe that such would encourage others to exercise their gun rights, then you will have better achieved your goal.

If you are a rifle carrier, then you are very likely going to be stopped and questioned by the police. Even if you are carrying your rifle in what you think is a perfectly legal manner, you can still be arrested and convicted. See for example:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eN3ehYJ3NMA&list=PLZRzoZLUOXSq8fvkRoYHTlgGvp0ordOQq&feature=c4-overview-vl
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vj88LhnLnx4&list=PLZRzoZLUOXSq8fvkRoYHTlgGvp0ordOQq&feature=c4-overview-vl
http://www.leagle.com/decision/199419375WnApp118_1183
In the latter case Spencer, who lived in a not-so-safe area, wanted to walk his dog at night. He put an AK47 on his back, presumably to clearly warn would-be attackers to stay away from him. He inserted the clip, which only makes sense, and is perfectly legal (or so you would think). He walked briskly with his head down and avoided eye contact with others. The latter fact I would think is what one would do to avoid "causing alarm for the safety of others". After all, if you want to pick a fight with some people what you might do is to linger around and stare at them. Despite the fact that everything Spencer did seemed very reasonable he was convicted and the court of appeals upheld his conviction. Even though walking quickly past others and avoiding eye contact would seem to be a way to avoid causing alarm the court said this behavior was actually causing alarm. This is the kind of perverted logic that activist judges will rely on to push their anti-gun agenda. So in WA state at least, any rifle carrying is likely to cause at least an unpleasant visit from the police and there is a significant probability that you could get arrested and spend a lot of money on legal fees.

The point of AC

OC for ME said:

.....if you are OC, what is the point of the shirt/sign?

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If you are in a vehicle, nobody can see that you OC. Having a sign on your vehicle would alert would-be carjackers and also (maybe) encourage others to support the 2nd Amendment and to do the same. And you will cut down on being tailgated.

If you are walking around with a rifle and are willing to deal with unpleasant police stops and possible arrest and conviction, then there is no point in putting ARMED on the back of your clothing. In fact, this might add to the amount of alarm you are already causing and make legal troubles for you more likely. In this case I would suggest you not add to your troubles with an ARMED sign on your back.

If you are a pistol carrier and wish you had the balls to be a rifle carrier but simply do not want to be harassed and possibly arrested and convicted, then AC may be the way for you to go. You get almost all of the advantages, but almost zero downside risk.

If you are a pistol carrier then you may still be attacked by an aggressor because pistols are not that noticeable in some cases. While a few potential aggressors might view AC as a challenge, I believe a much higher percentage would be dissuaded.

If you are a pistol carrier and do so to make a political statement, you enhance your political statement with an ARMED sign on your back and/or cap.

Um, no offense meant, but don't you have something else to think about? You seem to have plenty of mental energy but shouldn't you find something constructive to do with it? Seriously, you're talking to people who are generally very content to OC about them wearing signs in public?

When I OC it's because I can. I don't need a sign, badge or even someone's permission. This is like calling the local PD to announce, "I'm armed and I am going for a walk!"

But, if you decide that you need to try this, please have your cameras running...

Go ahead and get yourself the printed shirt and announce all you want. What is stopping you? Are you looking for approval, perhaps a huge dose of validation?

Go for it and report back. Why stop at the shirt? Put up signs around your home as well.

cloudcroft said:

...

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Way to behave like an ass.


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rtb47 said:

...
The problem with OC, especially in WA state, is the law is unclear and you could frequently be stopped by the police. So why not put the word "ARMED" in large letters on the back of your shirt, jacket, or vest and then carry concealed? Similarly, why not add "DRIVER ARMED" signage to your vehicle and wear a cap that says "ARMED" on the front? Add a picture of a gun for extra effect.

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IF you think that open carriers ONLY open carry to get attention, your idea has merit.

As far as how the police would treat you, this changes nothing. The police still know you are armed and do not have any evidence you are "legal". They would still stop you. Possibly MORE frequently, because an open carried handgun is often not noticed.

rtb47 said:

...Would this not give you the best of both worlds?

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IF you think it is best to 1) attract attention to yourself, 2) have to deal with police more often, and 3) lose the extra speed of not having to draw from cover, then, sure.


Myself, I do not believe we need a "scarlet letter" to tell people what we are doing.

The point you seem to be missing is that it is NOBODY'S BUSINESS what I am doing.

If they can't see my gun, TOO BAD! As long as it is in my holster or slung over my shoulder, it is NOT hurting them.

Freedom First said:

Um, no offense meant, but don't you have something else to think about? You seem to have plenty of mental energy but shouldn't you find something constructive to do with it? Seriously, you're talking to people who are generally very content to OC about them wearing signs in public?

When I OC it's because I can. I don't need a sign, badge or even someone's permission. This is like calling the local PD to announce, "I'm armed and I am going for a walk!"

But, if you decide that you need to try this, please have your cameras running...

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It is clear that AC is not for you, and that is perfectly OK. However, I believe you are being arrogant if you believe that you alone represent the feelings of everyone else on this board ("..you're talking to people who..."). I.e., you can express your opinion, but it is presumptuous to state that your opinion generally represents that of everyone else.

It is also presumptuous for you to suggest I don't have anything else to think about and do not do anything else constructive. Actually, I am thinking about the universal background check law that is being proposed for WA state. In addition to unneeded background checks, it effectively provides for gun registration. There will be hearings Tues 1/28/14 and Wed 1/29/14 in Olympia. You are from WA state, so why not attend? More info here:
http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/showthread.php?119871-Olympia-hearings-Jan-28-(House)-Jan-29-(Senate)-re-universal-background-amp-other-laws

rtb47 said:

It is clear that AC is not for you, and that is perfectly OK. However, I believe you are being arrogant if you believe that you alone represent the feelings of everyone else on this board ("..you're talking to people who..."). I.e., you can express your opinion, but it is presumptuous to state that your opinion generally represents that of everyone else.

It is also presumptuous for you to suggest I don't have anything else to think about and do not do anything else constructive. Actually, I am thinking about the universal background check law that is being proposed for WA state. In addition to unneeded background checks, it effectively provides for gun registration. There will be hearings Tues 1/28/14 and Wed 1/29/14 in Olympia. You are from WA state, so why not attend? More info here:
http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/s...enate)-re-universal-background-amp-other-laws

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OR, AC is not something I or others will choose to do, but IF you want to do it for you, then go for it.

Personally, I don't care HOW you carry or What you carry. I only ask that you don't be stupid about it and that you are legal!

Please back up your assertion

OC for ME said:

Bad idea.....really bad idea....

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If you make a statement like this, you should be willing to back it up. Can you explain yourself? Why is it a bad idea? Why would it not be true that AC would allow one to notify potential aggressors that you are armed and/or to encourage other citizens to support the 2nd Amendment, while at the same time avoiding the problems that rifle carriers run into? Insults are not a convincing argument, so try some genuine thought.

I cannot imagine anything more inane than wearing or displaying a sign that I am armed.

If I am openly carrying, that fact is instantly noticeable by everyone. My "announcing" it would be seen, I believe, as an act of aggression or bravado.

If I am carrying concealed, I am doing so for a reason, and displaying a sign that I am armed immediately defeats the purpose of my concealment.

What we strive to do in this community is to normalize the sight of a law-abiding citizen openly carrying a properly holstered handgun. Wearing a sign "announcing" that fact is superfluous, redundant and defeats the aspect of normality.