• We are now running on a new, and hopefully much-improved, server. In addition we are also on new forum software. Any move entails a lot of technical details and I suspect we will encounter a few issues as the new server goes live. Please be patient with us. It will be worth it! :) Please help by posting all issues here.
  • The forum will be down for about an hour this weekend for maintenance. I apologize for the inconvenience.
  • If you are having trouble seeing the forum then you may need to clear your browser's DNS cache. Click here for instructions on how to do that
  • Please review the Forum Rules frequently as we are constantly trying to improve the forum for our members and visitors.

Open Carry vs Concealed Carry? What about a compromise - Announced Carry?

PistolPackingMomma

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 1, 2011
Messages
1,884
Location
SC
Op, I think the issue of resistance to your idea is that it requires us to modify our lawful behavior to avoid harrasment.

I feel your idea stems from a desire to resolve the problem with compromise, but we are generally not the ones behaving unlawfully, so why should the non problematic end be "fixed"?
 

sudden valley gunner

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 13, 2008
Messages
16,674
Location
Whatcom County
rtb47,

First I am not sure if you were properly welcomed to the forum. If not, Welcome to the forum!

I have a few questions, have you/do you OC?

Have you met other regular OC'ers in your area or in our state?

If not I highly recommend going to a few meet and greets, have some coffee get a bite to eat, this simple act may change your perspective a bit.

If not, post in Washington sub forum that you want to have a meet in your area, people will show.
 

eye95

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 6, 2010
Messages
13,524
Location
Fairborn, Ohio, USA
If you make a statement like this, you should be willing to back it up. Can you explain yourself? Why is it a bad idea? Why would it not be true that AC would allow one to notify potential aggressors that you are armed and/or to encourage other citizens to support the 2nd Amendment, while at the same time avoiding the problems that rifle carriers run into? Insults are not a convincing argument, so try some genuine thought.

The biggest problem has been mentioned in this thread a few times already. Some cop, who would've otherwise left you alone, could decide (rightly or wrongly) that your "announcement" is intended to frighten others so that, while your carry would be lawful, the combination of your "announcement" and your gun amounts to DC, DP, IP, GATTTOTP, or some other such crime.

Just do it and tell us how it goes. Me? No. My gun is there for all to see. No announcement necessary.

BTW, I also would see "announcing" as showboating. OC is just C; deliberately drawing attention to it is showboating. Won't do it. But you have at it. This could be entertaining.
 

eye95

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 6, 2010
Messages
13,524
Location
Fairborn, Ohio, USA
I cannot imagine anything more inane than wearing or displaying a sign that I am armed.

If I am openly carrying, that fact is instantly noticeable by everyone. My "announcing" it would be seen, I believe, as an act of aggression or bravado.

If I am carrying concealed, I am doing so for a reason, and displaying a sign that I am armed immediately defeats the purpose of my concealment.

What we strive to do in this community is to normalize the sight of a law-abiding citizen openly carrying a properly holstered handgun. Wearing a sign "announcing" that fact is superfluous, redundant and defeats the aspect of normality.

Dammit! This is OCDO. Knock it off with the logic!
 

eye95

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 6, 2010
Messages
13,524
Location
Fairborn, Ohio, USA
rtb47,

First I am not sure if you were properly welcomed to the forum. If not, Welcome to the forum!

I have a few questions, have you/do you OC?

Have you met other regular OC'ers in your area or in our state?

If not I highly recommend going to a few meet and greets, have some coffee get a bite to eat, this simple act may change your perspective a bit.

If not, post in Washington sub forum that you want to have a meet in your area, people will show.

To add: Armed people. Armed people who disagree with you. Good times will be had by all. Welcome, rtb47.

I love that you think. I just disagree strongly with this particular thought of yours.
 

Freedom First

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 8, 2010
Messages
845
Location
Kennewick, Wa.
It is clear that AC is not for you, and that is perfectly OK. However, I believe you are being arrogant if you believe that you alone represent the feelings of everyone else on this board ("..you're talking to people who..."). I.e., you can express your opinion, but it is presumptuous to state that your opinion generally represents that of everyone else.

Arrogant? Not so much. But you are correct that I do not speak for everyone on OCDO. That would be delusional, especially when discussing this herd of cats. I spoke for the concept of OC as it is normally done today. A human with a handgun openly carried on the hip. It works. Sure, ol' Johnny Law gets his knickers in a bunch sometimes but that's the cost of doing business. They are wrong and we help them see the "true path". Why try to reinvent the wheel here? I wasn't trying to insult you, I was trying to suggest that you find something else to do with your time since, in my mind, this is a waste of perfectly useful life energy.

It is also presumptuous for you to suggest I don't have anything else to think about and do not do anything else constructive. Actually, I am thinking about the universal background check law that is being proposed for WA state. In addition to unneeded background checks, it effectively provides for gun registration. There will be hearings Tues 1/28/14 and Wed 1/29/14 in Olympia. You are from WA state, so why not attend? More info here:
http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/showthread.php?119871-Olympia-hearings-Jan-28-(House)-Jan-29-(Senate)-re-universal-background-amp-other-laws

Well, yes I am a resident of Washington State. And I do know about the pending laws they would love to pass. But I see things a bit differently than you apparently. Let them pass it. They have to enforce it. There's the truly troublesome part for these wanna be tyrants.

Are you watching how the registration is going in Connecticut? It goes not so well. The have about 40,000 of the approximately 1,000,000 illegal standard cap magazines now registered. And the time is up. All the others are now illegal BECAUSE THE PEOPLE ARE NULLIFYING THAT LAW THEMSELVES. And when the SWAT teams start kicking in doors to search homes, what then? So now the government is scrambling to offer an Amnesty to those who "failed to make the deadline". Why? It's because those in power have sat down and asked Johnny Law, "What next?" And his reply? "I'm not doing it. People will get killed." So, now what? They have a law that people aren't willing to obey. Think Prohibition. How'd that work out? Not so good.

In the end it comes down to you. And me. What will we allow to be done TO US? That's the real question. Not how big the letters are on your back when you carry your gun around openly. Sorry.
 
Last edited:

MyWifeSaidYes

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 29, 2009
Messages
1,028
Location
Logan, OH
National Firearms Act - 1938 - No more compromise.

Gun Control Act- 1968 - No more compromise.

Firearm Owners Protection Act - 1986 - No more compromise.

Undetectable Firearms Act - 1988 - No more compromise.

Brady Handgun Violence Prevention Act- 1993 - No more compromise.

Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act - 1994 - No more compromise.
(included the Federal Assault Weapons Ban)

Domestic Violence Offender Gun Ban - 1997 - No more compromise.
(aka the Lautenberg Amendment)

Arms Trade Treaty - 2013 - No more compromise.

No. More. Compromise.
 

eye95

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 6, 2010
Messages
13,524
Location
Fairborn, Ohio, USA
Compromise is a ratchet. Each time we compromise, the ratchet locks, and there is no going back, just "forward" to the next ratchet stop.
 

Rusty Young Man

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 19, 2013
Messages
1,548
Location
Árida Zona
Please don't think I'm dirty harry
Just because I open carry

What if someone tries to steal it?
Recite this poem and really feel it:

If you try to take my gun,
I'll shoot you with the other one.

When the bad guys attack
I'll shoot them in the head

And then keep on shooting
Until the threat is dead

...I mean, stopped.

In the dusty deserts of AZ
One can see the shape of me:
I try to normalize my mode of carry,
Get looks and whispers, but howls nary;
That's how to spot the transplants from afar,
With loopy looks and hybrid cars;
Perhaps they feel the sudden urge
To amble free and Freedom splurge?

Good, you see, in "Announced" Carry,
Perhaps a tee; a reveille.
But how UN-normal that would be!
We disagree. On THAT agree.
Perhaps it's simply not to be,
Not likely; not my "cup o' tea".
I say to thee "not my OC."
 
Last edited:

Rusty Young Man

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 19, 2013
Messages
1,548
Location
Árida Zona
National Firearms Act - 1938 - No more compromise.

Gun Control Act- 1968 - No more compromise.

Firearm Owners Protection Act - 1986 - No more compromise.

Undetectable Firearms Act - 1988 - No more compromise.

Brady Handgun Violence Prevention Act- 1993 - No more compromise.

Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act - 1994 - No more compromise.
(included the Federal Assault Weapons Ban)

Domestic Violence Offender Gun Ban - 1997 - No more compromise.
(aka the Lautenberg Amendment)

Arms Trade Treaty - 2013 - No more compromise.

No. More. Compromise.

Here's a nice little image of those "compromises".
Illustrated-Guide-To-Gun-Control.png
 

rtb47

New member
Joined
Jan 23, 2014
Messages
9
Location
Shelton, WA
Thanks for the Welcome & Explanation of why I proposed AC

rtb47,

First I am not sure if you were properly welcomed to the forum. If not, Welcome to the forum!

I have a few questions, have you/do you OC?

Have you met other regular OC'ers in your area or in our state?

If not I highly recommend going to a few meet and greets, have some coffee get a bite to eat, this simple act may change your perspective a bit.

If not, post in Washington sub forum that you want to have a meet in your area, people will show.

I do not OC or AC. I have a leather CC vest and keep my .38 in the left pocket. It is very comfortable. I am older and so if attacked by someone I could easily feign a heart attack and pretend to be grabbing my heart but actually be grabbing the gun in my vest. I am pretty comfortable with this approach. In addition I frequently wear my NRA cap as I think someone would be less likely to attack me since they might assume that I am carrying. I never seriously thought about or have a strong desire to OC. The reason that I made that suggestion is because I see that some people (especially rifle carriers) have been having some serious legal problems when they OC. Although I do not have a strong desire to OC myself, I genuinely feel empathy for those exercise their rights and get into serious legal problems as a result. For example Mack Worley:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aVTXkyhdkuw
So I decided to suggest something that could alleviate those problems while at the same time allow people like Mack to make some sort of statement to others, whether it be to warn away would-be aggressors or be as a message to others to believe in and practice 2nd amendment rights.

I don't understand why some people on your forum seem to be antagonistic about my suggestion. If you had were having car trouble and all you had was a screwdriver and wrench and I stopped by to help you and offered to loan you my vice grip pliers if you needed it, would you tell me "bad idea - really bad idea"? I know I would not, even if I did not need it. All I am offering is an alternative way to accomplish your goals.

I still have not heard much about the fact that AC would bring in the 1st amendment, which even activist liberal judges like. Any legal scholars want to comment on this aspect?
 

Rusty Young Man

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 19, 2013
Messages
1,548
Location
Árida Zona
Excuse my bad manners, I didn't see you were new to the thread, rtb47. So please accept these greetings from sunny, dry Arizona, and welcome to OCDO.

I'll try to tackle what I feel qualified to answer from your latest post:

I do not OC or AC. I have a leather CC vest and keep my .38 in the left pocket. It is very comfortable. I am older and so if attacked by someone I could easily feign a heart attack and pretend to be grabbing my heart but actually be grabbing the gun in my vest. I am pretty comfortable with this approach. In addition I frequently wear my NRA cap as I think someone would be less likely to attack me since they might assume that I am carrying.

So you want people to ASSUME you are carrying, yet do not OC? Not everyone notices what is written on caps, so you may look like a nice, soft target to the violent criminal element that exists in the world. As to feigning a heart attack, it sounds like you're making the same tired arguments (I say "tired arguments" because we keep hearing them here from the CC-only bunch) of "CC gives you a tactical advantage" and "if you OC, you'll be shot first!" BOTH of these arguments have been thoroughly discredited on various threads on here, but these are the synopses:
1) "element of surprise" only benefits the ATTACKER, and "the supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting", meaning the best defense scenario is the one that is avoided by discouraging the assailant from attacking BEFORE he attacks.
2) see last part of #1

I never seriously thought about or have a strong desire to OC. The reason that I made that suggestion is because I see that some people (especially rifle carriers) have been having some serious legal problems when they OC. Although I do not have a strong desire to OC myself, I genuinely feel empathy for those exercise their rights and get into serious legal problems as a result. For example Mack Worley:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aVTXkyhdkuw
So I decided to suggest something that could alleviate those problems while at the same time allow people like Mack to make some sort of statement to others, whether it be to warn away would-be aggressors or be as a message to others to believe in and practice 2nd amendment rights.
These problems are the fault of the ignorant masses that choose to remain ignorant (I say choose because in the digital/information age, one must really work hard at remaining ignorant when so much information is only a mouse click and a Wiki entry away). As to changing government, sometimes lawsuits are the only way to have people see the frivolous nature of persecuting armed LAW-ABIDING citizens (LACs).
To address the second bolded part of your post: what better way to make a statement to the ignorant masses ("I'm an armed LAC, and I just want to be able to protect myself and loved ones as I go about my daily life") and to deter would-be assailants than to OC?:)

I don't understand why some people on your forum seem to be antagonistic about my suggestion. If you had were having car trouble and all you had was a screwdriver and wrench and I stopped by to help you and offered to loan you my vice grip pliers if you needed it, would you tell me "bad idea - really bad idea"? I know I would not, even if I did not need it. All I am offering is an alternative way to accomplish your goals.

I still have not heard much about the fact that AC would bring in the 1st amendment, which even activist liberal judges like. Any legal scholars want to comment on this aspect?
Your analogy would have been better if it included the fact that the tools in the possession of OCDO are doing the job without making unnecessary ruckus with the neighbors by having signs in the middle of the road that said something akin to "I'm fixing my car right here by the side of the road.":D

As to the applicability of the the First Amendment, here is a reference about Open Carry as a symbol protected by 1A (#38)
http://www.scribd.com/mobile/doc/193537336
 
Last edited:

golddigger14s

Activist Member
Joined
Apr 27, 2010
Messages
2,068
Location
Lawton, OK USA
So I need to change my wardrobe, and just have one t-shirt labeled "Armed"? What do I do with all the rest of my shirts? I kind of like my polo's. I don't need to label my car, my CPL comes up automatically when I get pulled over already. Besides, I will lose my "element of surprise".:banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead:
Sorry to be so harsh with my sarcasm to a new person, but this a subject that just gets me going.

Especially here in WA I've had ZERO issues with LE in more than four years. Please, just say NO. Just go about your daily activities like anybody else without the billboard, and please don't call places up in advance to see if they allow carry. Also living in Shelton, you definitely need to carry. Be safe, and carry on. Check out the WA event thread, and come to some of our meet-ups. If you are not doing anything Tues come with us to the Capitol for the hearings on some gun right bills.
http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/s...94-Judiciary-Hearing-Jan-28th-130pm-(Olympia)
 

MyWifeSaidYes

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 29, 2009
Messages
1,028
Location
Logan, OH
rtb47 said:
I don't understand why some people on your forum seem to be antagonistic about my suggestion.


Does your suggestion still allow us to openly carry our firearms?

No.

Since this is a forum FOR open carry, I submit that YOUR suggestion is antagonistic.

Do you understand THAT?


The police officers that harass LEGAL open carriers are the ones that need to change, not us.
 

eye95

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 6, 2010
Messages
13,524
Location
Fairborn, Ohio, USA
By OPie, he means what everyone else in the universe calls the OP, the Original Poster.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk.

<o>
 

Rusty Young Man

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 19, 2013
Messages
1,548
Location
Árida Zona
By OPie, he means what everyone else in the universe calls the OP, the Original Poster.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk.

<o>

Got it. I was just extending a late welcome to the OP, rtb47. His (?) join date says January 2014, so he's new to OCDO. When I originally posted my reply to his suggestion I didn't welcome him, but that was an oversight on my part.
 

OC for ME

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 6, 2010
Messages
12,452
Location
White Oak Plantation
Here's a nice little image of those "compromises".
Illustrated-Guide-To-Gun-Control.png
The last panel clearly indicates that the fella who gladly gave up his cake is a menatl case and not deserving of possessing any firearm.....I mean, just look at his face, that dude is a nut-job.

<snip>
So I decided to suggest something that could alleviate those problems while at the same time allow people like Mack to make some sort of statement to others, whether it be to warn away would-be aggressors or be as a message to others to believe in and practice 2nd amendment rights.

I don't understand why some people on your forum seem to be antagonistic about my suggestion. If you had were having car trouble and all you had was a screwdriver and wrench and I stopped by to help you and offered to loan you my vice grip pliers if you needed it, would you tell me "bad idea - really bad idea"? I know I would not, even if I did not need it. All I am offering is an alternative way to accomplish your goals.

I still have not heard much about the fact that AC would bring in the 1st amendment, which even activist liberal judges like. Any legal scholars want to comment on this aspect?
OC accomplishes that which you desire.....OCers don't need a shirt to advertise that they are armed.....that's kind of the point of OC.

CC, and then advertising, defeats the purpose of CC.....you lose the "element of surprise." I get it, you area CC only guy, no big deal, advertise away.

Addressed previously, but, cops (some) are the "problem" not OCers. No tee shirt is gunna fix that problem.

I get it, it seems you got your feelings hurt because you offered what you thought was a good idea. I countered with "Bad idea.....really bad idea." Not gunna change my position.

As I stated "Go ahead and give it a shot. Get back to us as to how it goes. Ya never know."
 

Slade McCuiston

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 13, 2014
Messages
22
Location
Western KY
Honestly, my first thought was, "That's a terrible idea. Somebody would know you were armed and shoot you."

Then, I thought about it. That's what everyone says when you OC, and it doesn't happen. What makes it so different than OC?

I, personally, wouldn't do it. That said, it's not an especially bad idea. I mean, cops responding would know that some criminal wouldn't be displaying "ARMED" across their back. Same principal as the OC and CC badges, but a whole lot less trouble-some.
 

OC for ME

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 6, 2010
Messages
12,452
Location
White Oak Plantation
Interesting observation. However, how does the Op prevent a citizen from wearing a shirt/sign, and who is unarmed? Could this not confuse those cops with miniscule mental capacity and thus enable unarmed citizens to bait these mental midget cops into violating rights in search of a tax payer subsidized payday?

Look, OC already does what this concept is proposing to do.....redundant. The stated goal, reiterated by the concealedcarryati, it removes the element of surprise. The gold standard in the "self-defense" realm according to some.....defeats the purpose of CC.

So, who remains? There are a great many citizens who possess but never carry, regardless of the reason, or no reason at all. However, it could be mandated by the state that all citizens who CC must aid LE by wearing such a indicator so as to not place LE in a difficult position of approaching a citizen who he does not know may be armed or not. If you have a CC "permit" and are carrying a concealed firearm, there should be a penalty, infraction maybe, $100, nothing big, for not wearing the proper identifiers while CCing.
 
Top