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Thread: Would a holster like this be considered open carry?

  1. #1
    Regular Member Chief Ten Beers's Avatar
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    Would a holster like this be considered open carry?

    You're wearing this style of an open carry holster with your gun in it with the flap over the gun. Is this still considered open carry?

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    Last edited by Chief Ten Beers; 01-25-2014 at 12:33 AM.
    If you're not ashamed to own it, don't be ashamed to open carry it.

    A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

    Concealed carry, where you HIDE the exercise of your right to carry arms.

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    Regular Member Maverick9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chief Ten Beers View Post
    You're wearing this style of an open carry holster with your gun in it with the flap over the gun. Is this still considered open carry?
    As you know the 'law' often does not specifically deny or approve of OC-ing in many places (But it does in Texas).

    Most carry laws have some nonsense about some part of something identifiable being visible.

    I think 99% of people seeing that prominently displayed on your belt, with no cover garments would say 'Look, a Mountie'.

    Get yourself a hat and tall boots, man!

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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chief Ten Beers View Post
    You're wearing this style of an open carry holster with your gun in it with the flap over the gun. Is this still considered open carry?

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    IMO it is a OC holster, but that is only my opinion. I asked a magistrate before LEOSA about openly carrying with a flap holster. Her OPINION was that it was OC, because the holster was not designed to conceal a firearm. But every officer has a opinion, and win or lose you might still take a ride.
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    Regular Member Chief Ten Beers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    Would a gun/knife in a sporran be open carried?
    I don't wear a kilt, so I wouldn't wear a sporran, but a sporran could be made into a good possible bag to be used with a flintlock rifle.
    If you're not ashamed to own it, don't be ashamed to open carry it.

    A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

    Concealed carry, where you HIDE the exercise of your right to carry arms.

  5. #5
    Regular Member Chief Ten Beers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    IMO it is a OC holster, but that is only my opinion. I asked a magistrate before LEOSA about openly carrying with a flap holster. Her OPINION was that it was OC, because the holster was not designed to conceal a firearm. But every officer has a opinion, and win or lose you might still take a ride.
    Thank you for your answer WalkingWolf. I'm still new to this open carry, so I'm just trying to find out all the information that I can. I know those flap holsters were primarily made for the cap and ball revolvers, and that's what I would carry in one, but to be on the safe side, I'll continue to wear an open holster such as one of these that I own. That way, there's no question about my gun being open and visible.

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    I hope I'm not asking dumb questions for being a newbie on this forum, I'm just trying to learn so I can be as law abiding as I can.
    If you're not ashamed to own it, don't be ashamed to open carry it.

    A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

    Concealed carry, where you HIDE the exercise of your right to carry arms.

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    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
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    I know of no state that would even put it into a gray area, but I cannot speak for Kentucky. The flap holster is a very safe holster and very obviously a holster of a firearm. Many state laws use the word "discernable" not "visible" as the key word, but I've not found KY's definition yet.
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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chief Ten Beers View Post
    Thank you for your answer WalkingWolf. I'm still new to this open carry, so I'm just trying to find out all the information that I can. I know those flap holsters were primarily made for the cap and ball revolvers, and that's what I would carry in one, but to be on the safe side, I'll continue to wear an open holster such as one of these that I own. That way, there's no question about my gun being open and visible.

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    I hope I'm not asking dumb questions for being a newbie on this forum, I'm just trying to learn so I can be as law abiding as I can.
    I have a flap holster for my 58 Remington, I only use it when it rains though. Drawing from it is like drawing from under clothing. I bought it years ago for SASS, but then learned that twist draw is not allowed. Not exactly sure why because there is no sweeping with twist draw.
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    Regular Member 09jisaac's Avatar
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    This is the statute dealing with carry a concealed deadly weapon.

    Concealed has the same definition of the word does usually.

    Concealed can be defined as "kept secret; hidden". So I do not think that a flap holster, that is clearly a holster and that someone would naturally assume that a firearm is within, would be considered concealed.
    No man alive can beat me in a fair fight: It's not fair to chase a man down and beat him.

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    Regular Member Chief Ten Beers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    I have a flap holster for my 58 Remington, I only use it when it rains though. Drawing from it is like drawing from under clothing. I bought it years ago for SASS, but then learned that twist draw is not allowed. Not exactly sure why because there is no sweeping with twist draw.
    I don't have a flap holster yet, but I plan on getting one, or two, and use it for either one of my '58 Remingtons, or with my 1860 Colt. It doesn't seem right that SASS wouldn't allow those holsters, because when you draw, it's a straight up motion.
    If you're not ashamed to own it, don't be ashamed to open carry it.

    A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

    Concealed carry, where you HIDE the exercise of your right to carry arms.

  10. #10
    Regular Member Chief Ten Beers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MAC702 View Post
    I know of no state that would even put it into a gray area, but I cannot speak for Kentucky. The flap holster is a very safe holster and very obviously a holster of a firearm. Many state laws use the word "discernable" not "visible" as the key word, but I've not found KY's definition yet.
    I haven't seen anything for Kentucky on a flap holster either way. Obviously it's a holster for a gun, and it won't be hidden from view, so, I don't know. I'll keep researching anyway.
    If you're not ashamed to own it, don't be ashamed to open carry it.

    A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

    Concealed carry, where you HIDE the exercise of your right to carry arms.

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    Regular Member Chief Ten Beers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 09jisaac View Post
    This is the statute dealing with carry a concealed deadly weapon.

    Concealed has the same definition of the word does usually.

    Concealed can be defined as "kept secret; hidden". So I do not think that a flap holster, that is clearly a holster and that someone would naturally assume that a firearm is within, would be considered concealed.
    I wouldn't think so either, but you know how the cops can be at times, and that would give them an incentive to harass. I don't need that, so I'll do some more research before I act.
    If you're not ashamed to own it, don't be ashamed to open carry it.

    A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

    Concealed carry, where you HIDE the exercise of your right to carry arms.

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    Regular Member 09jisaac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chief Ten Beers View Post
    I wouldn't think so either, but you know how the cops can be at times, and that would give them an incentive to harass. I don't need that, so I'll do some more research before I act.
    There isn't much to research.

    If an officer is going to harass you for a carrying a firearm in a flap holster, then he would harass you OCing in any other way also.

    If you want to OC then be prepared to be harassed. It doesn't seem to happen much in Kentucky, but it does happen.
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    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 09jisaac View Post
    ...If an officer is going to harass you for a carrying a firearm in a flap holster, then he would harass you OCing in any other way also...
    Excellent point.
    "It's not important how many people I've killed. What's important is how I get along with the people who are still alive" - Jimmy the Tulip

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    Regular Member Maverick9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MAC702 View Post
    Excellent point.
    Sorry, it's an excellent point but then the laws are designed to be direct and specific, and in good law, even the words are defined and vague things are included in the code, it won't necessarily help you one whit. If it is not spelled out (this kind of oddity), then it gives leeway. Leeway means you can be arrested, or firearm confiscated, or what have you. Why go there?

    You have two kinds of justice - street justice - that's where vagueness lets LE make you take a ride and pay for your freedom. He is allowed to do this, which is a kind of injustice and HE KNOWS IT.

    Justice in court - depends on the Judge, the DA. Can you see the PA holding up the holster 'Is this a gun holster? Can anyone tell?', then open it and have anything in it from a reptile to a lollipop to a (fake) handgrenade, and guess what, you get convicted, because he's proved the thing 'hides' or obscures from view, regardless of shape.

    It's not just the law, or even the local interpretation of the law. It's the SOP, or standard of practice. Thus I would say DO NOT use a holster like that unless you have something like a permission slip from the Sheriff, or the DA or the presiding judge(s).

    Good luck.
    Last edited by Maverick9; 01-26-2014 at 12:26 AM.

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    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maverick9 View Post
    ...Can you see the PA holding up the holster 'Is this a gun holster? Can anyone tell?', then open it and have anything in it from a reptile to a lollipop to a (fake) handgrenade, and guess what, you get convicted...
    I can't imagine even Kentucky being like this, no.

    BB guns are so realistic looking these days, perhaps we can't carry a real gun because someone might assume it was a BB gun and then we get in trouble when they find out it was a real one?

    Ha ha, I read yours before you edited it!

    I will reaffirm, however, that I am NOT an expert in Kentucky, and am only participating as an interested observer who occasionally travels through.
    Last edited by MAC702; 01-26-2014 at 12:29 AM.
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    Regular Member DrakeZ07's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maverick9 View Post
    Sorry, it's an excellent point but then the laws are designed to be direct and specific, and in good law, even the words are defined and vague things are included in the code, it won't necessarily help you one whit. If it is not spelled out (this kind of oddity), then it gives leeway. Leeway means you can be arrested, or firearm confiscated, or what have you. Why go there?

    You have two kinds of justice - street justice - that's where vagueness lets LE make you take a ride and pay for your freedom. He is allowed to do this, which is a kind of injustice and HE KNOWS IT.

    Justice in court - depends on the Judge, the DA. Can you see the PA holding up the holster 'Is this a gun holster? Can anyone tell?', then open it and have anything in it from a reptile to a lollipop to a (fake) handgrenade, and guess what, you get convicted, because he's proved the thing 'hides' or obscures from view, regardless of shape.

    It's not just the law, or even the local interpretation of the law. It's the SOP, or standard of practice. Thus I would say DO NOT use a holster like that unless you have something like a permission slip from the Sheriff, or the DA or the presiding judge(s).

    Good luck.
    We don't have Prosecuting, or District Attorneys [PA/DA], we have Commonwealth's Attorneys [CA].

    Also, half of what you said wouldn't apply to Kentucky, because you didn't bother to read any of our statutes, or laws, regarding CC, or our OC court precedents.

    Go look for Commonwealth of Kentucky vs. Holland. The judge ruled that a firearm 'worn outside of a jacket, or shirt, and in plain view, is Openly carried, and no man may question that persons right to carry it'. Although a firearm is technically concealed within a flap holster, the holster and therein the firearm, are worn outside of a jacket, and/or shirt. If it can be argued that the holster is obviously holding a firearm, then you could get away with OC'ing in a holster that 100% conceals the firearm from view of a naked eye. HOWEVER, I don't think that'd hold water in court, because the firearm ITSELF is hidden from plain view of a naked eye, by the holster, even if the holster is gun shaped and worn outside of a jacket or shirt.

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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    The only person who must calim that a flap holster is concealing a firearm is the arresting cop. Cop's ain't dumb and a PA/DA/CA is not gunna ding his rep for prosecuting a citizen because some idiot cop could not figure out that a holster with a flap is not a fanny pack alternative.

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    Regular Member DrakeZ07's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    The only person who must calim that a flap holster is concealing a firearm is the arresting cop. Cop's ain't dumb and a PA/DA/CA is not gunna ding his rep for prosecuting a citizen because some idiot cop could not figure out that a holster with a flap is not a fanny pack alternative.
    Let's do what the sheeple like to do, and ask a cop about this! Someone go find Glockster.
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    Regular Member Chief Ten Beers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrakeZ07 View Post
    Let's do what the sheeple like to do, and ask a cop about this! Someone go find Glockster.
    I would like to hear from a LEO also and get his opinion on this.
    If you're not ashamed to own it, don't be ashamed to open carry it.

    A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

    Concealed carry, where you HIDE the exercise of your right to carry arms.

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    Regular Member DrakeZ07's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chief Ten Beers View Post
    I would like to hear from a LEO also and get his opinion on this.
    I was being sarcastic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    It'll prolly be a lie; that he is a cop, and his opinion. They are not bound to the truth.
    Come now, we all know that Cops NEVER lie to us civilians, and not even the most pro-2A/Pro-citizen cop, like KYGlockster, would EVER lie to us, they're above such petty actions, and we can trust their word as being equal to the law with their profound, and near god-like knowledge of every statute, Administrative Regulation, and County/City Ordnance, which they are sworn to uphold, and enforce.
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    If or if not this would be conceal depends on how the law is written and might even depend on past court cases.

    I would agree that if one sees a holster one would assume that there is a firearm there. Thus the firearm isn't concealed.

    But we know what assuming makes one.

    In Wis. had a judge rule that a buck knife was concealed because actual knife was hidden inside its case on defendants belt.

    When one is dealing with the anti gun, weapons elements. One can expect them to twist the law for their own means.

    I believe in MS if any part of the gun is hidden it is considered concealed.

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    Last edited by Firearms Iinstuctor; 01-29-2014 at 08:31 PM.
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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firearms Iinstuctor View Post
    If or if not this would be conceal depends on how the law is written and might even depend on past court cases.

    I would agree that if one sees a holster one would assume that there is a firearm there. Thus the firearm isn't concealed.

    But we know what assuming makes one.

    In Wis. had a judge rule that a buck knife was concealed because actual knife was hidden inside its case on defendants belt.

    When one is dealing with the anti gun, weapons elements. One can expect them to twist the law for their own means.

    I believe in MS if any part of the gun is hidden it is considered concealed.

    http://gunwatch.blogspot.com/2013/03...ssissippi.html
    Wow I have not seen anyone arrested for a buck knife in a belt case. Somebody must have had a bad day. I do carry my folders in open top belt holsters, but that is mostly for convenience.
    It is well that war is so terrible otherwise we would grow too fond of it.
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  23. #23
    Regular Member Maverick9's Avatar
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    Though what gutshot said seems reasonable, times, they are a-changin'.

    You can't look back on case law and be assured you are not going to be the first case.

    Who would have thought a reasonable looking LEO would rip out a young, compliant black woman's window and slam her to the ground due to a taillight being out?

    He said he didn't have room to hand her the ticket on the clipboard, AND he was videoing that this was not true. (we've all seen it, I'm not posting it again).

    And there are cases where people made an issue out of something like this. Obviously the OP is concerned. Should we be inaccurate and pshaw him? Should we offer up exceptions as the rule? Should we say 'chances are...go ahead?

    I don't know but if you have some kind of local assurance it's OK, and they don't hire a new guy from KAlifornia, and if he didn't just have a bad day...that's a lot of 'IF's.

  24. #24
    Regular Member Maverick9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gutshot View Post
    There are very few gun laws in Ky. and very little case law on them, because they are plainly written. Case law comes about when there is a difference of opinion on what the statutes mean and there is a trial. That seldom exists here. Since nobody has every been charged with a crime for doing this, it leads me to believe that everybody understand that it is legal. No one has ever been charged with a crime for eating a ham sandwich and no case law exists, but I don't hesitate to eat one if I want to do it. The fact that there is no case law saying it is legal doesn't scare me. I feel exactly the same about this. We all know that eating a ham sandwich is legal. We don't need case law, AG's opinions or any other crap. If we are going to worry about cops having a bad day or a new guy who doesn't know what he's doing we should just stay home and hide under our beds.

    YOU ARE COMPLETELY MISSING THE POINT, my fren.

    Nobody is advocating one worry about XYZ. None of the regulars posted 'SHOULD I WORRY ABOUT A FLAPPED HOLSTER'?

    Yet you post as though you can't read the OP's post, which was a question - basically is there a chance, a remote chance, absolutely no chance under Heaven or Earth, I don't know his mind.

    So:
    o Remote chance - NO, it is legal in Kentucky, though it is not in the written law. It has not been found by Gutshot in Case Law.

    o Is there absolutely any chance under Heaven or Earth it is not legal ANYWHERE IN THE US. SURE. It's illegal in NY, NJ, MD, CA, and some other places.

    o Is there no chance under heaven or GOD'S GREEN EARTH IN KENTUCKY, that no matter what, you can shoot me in the head if it ever happens - I would say 'be cautious', because times are changing. Cops come in transferred from Ca, NY, MD, NJ and FORGET they are in Kentucky. A KENTUCKY COP CAN HAVE A BAD DAY - NOT SO FAR, BUT IT COULD HAPPEN. I'd say be cautiously optimistic in KENTUCKY.

    Upshot: Go ahead, see what happens - why are you so worried, OP? You a mouse or a Man? That's Gutshot's opinion, wait no, GS speaks directly to GOD, ALMIGHTY. He might even have it on a stone tablet.
    -==------

    What I'm saying is it's a QUESTION not asked by ME.
    You do your due diligence and look at the totality of circumstances, the location, the standard tone in the US and give a range of probabilities. You are free to post yours - basically a WAG, and an addendum to intimidate anyone else's WAG.

    That's different than ME posting a topic - I'm gonna be all worried about ham, sandwiches and flap holsters in KY, am I paranoid? I NEVER POSTED THAT.

    HTH.

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