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Thread: I could use your help!!

  1. #1
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    I could use your help!!

    this has probably been tried before but I thought I'd give it a go again to see if I may have better luck this go-around.

    I'm attempting to gather enough support/signatures to have this petition reviewed for possible action. Basically, I'm asking to have all Government Civilian employees that work on federal/govt instalations, permission to retain and secure their firearms in their vehicles while at work. Dunno if this will even be heard even if I get the 100K signatures needed but nothing ventured nothing gained...

    here is the link: https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/pet...-duty/VzGhVct5

    Now, while some of you may disapprove of me 'selectively' only adding in a specific group of folks (ie DoD civilians), I'm hoping to take a page from the other side and ask for "just a few concessions" - maybe if we can just get our foot in the door first, THEN we can take on bigger chunks later...Its my first attempt at this sort of thing - I just get TIRED of not having my firearm with me before work or after I leave work - its too inconvienent to have to go home after work and get it just to go back into town...(Gas, time, etc)...it would be alot easier if I were allowed to secure it in my vehicle while working...

    Anyway, I'd appreciate your support and your help in distributing the link if you are so inclined to do so...Thanks in advance!!

  2. #2
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    Has FedGov taken any affirmative action, positive or negative, on guns that was inspired by a whitehouse.gov petition?
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

  3. #3
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Think that the OP's energies would be better spent on getting out the pro vote.

    I know of no petition that has ever garnered a positive response from this administration.

    Note that petitions without identifying details of those signing are valueless.
    http://www.springforwardwebdesign.co...109&Itemid=128
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Thanks for the vote of confidence....

  5. #5
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jrz_dad View Post
    Thanks for the vote of confidence....
    Nothing worth doing on this level is easy.

    The Whitehouse petition site shown on the OP is IMO just a pretty trash bin + it keeps people busy that could be more productive in other ways.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    well, ya gotta start somewhere - this is as good as any - if I cannot generate enough interest HERE, then how can I expect to contact my elected reps and ask THEM to fight the fight if there isn't any support? It would be awesome to have the 100k, even if its turned down for whatever reason, then take those numbers to our elected reps and say "Look!...theres at least this many that would like this changed - can you help?"...So, its only a start but it DIES here if no one is interested in helping...that's how I see it

  7. #7
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jrz_dad View Post
    well, ya gotta start somewhere - this is as good as any - if I cannot generate enough interest HERE, then how can I expect to contact my elected reps and ask THEM to fight the fight if there isn't any support? It would be awesome to have the 100k, even if its turned down for whatever reason, then take those numbers to our elected reps and say "Look!...theres at least this many that would like this changed - can you help?"...So, its only a start but it DIES here if no one is interested in helping...that's how I see it
    Well you are right to the degree that numbers are power.

    You indicated that the "petition' was for the Whitehouse. Now you want it to show your "reps." Nobel.

    Do you have any experience as a lobbyist? Do you know how the system works? Right now you are one (1) person who hopes to get 100,000 signatures (good luck) - when (if) you deliver them you might get 3 minutes (your a newbie) with an assistant to the "rep" who will pass a Cliff Notes report on to the "rep" as he rushes for a committee meeting. That'll be the end of it more likely than not.

    Wanna get involved? Don't reinvent the wheel - its already been tried. Join an established state level or national level organization and put your shoulder to the wagon. People get things done, not petitions. People that take the time, make the effort to get to know the players and what motivates them. A comprehensive game plan (like a corporate marketing), requires planning, good direction, controlled execution, and excellent follow through and timing.

    Don't take offense. Don't put people down for having the experience (been there and done that) to know what works and what doesn't.

    You must decide what direction you will take.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Well you are right to the degree that numbers are power.

    You indicated that the "petition' was for the Whitehouse. Now you want it to show your "reps." Nobel.

    Do you have any experience as a lobbyist? Do you know how the system works? Right now you are one (1) person who hopes to get 100,000 signatures (good luck) - when (if) you deliver them you might get 3 minutes (your a newbie) with an assistant to the "rep" who will pass a Cliff Notes report on to the "rep" as he rushes for a committee meeting. That'll be the end of it more likely than not.

    Wanna get involved? Don't reinvent the wheel - its already been tried. Join an established state level or national level organization and put your shoulder to the wagon. People get things done, not petitions. People that take the time, make the effort to get to know the players and what motivates them. A comprehensive game plan (like a corporate marketing), requires planning, good direction, controlled execution, and excellent follow through and timing.

    Don't take offense. Don't put people down for having the experience (been there and done that) to know what works and what doesn't.

    You must decide what direction you will take.
    Ok, thanks

  9. #9
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    Go here to start a petition....... It works..... http://www.change.org/



    Quote Originally Posted by jrz_dad View Post
    this has probably been tried before but I thought I'd give it a go again to see if I may have better luck this go-around.

    I'm attempting to gather enough support/signatures to have this petition reviewed for possible action. Basically, I'm asking to have all Government Civilian employees that work on federal/govt instalations, permission to retain and secure their firearms in their vehicles while at work. Dunno if this will even be heard even if I get the 100K signatures needed but nothing ventured nothing gained...

    here is the link: https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/pet...-duty/VzGhVct5

    Now, while some of you may disapprove of me 'selectively' only adding in a specific group of folks (ie DoD civilians), I'm hoping to take a page from the other side and ask for "just a few concessions" - maybe if we can just get our foot in the door first, THEN we can take on bigger chunks later...Its my first attempt at this sort of thing - I just get TIRED of not having my firearm with me before work or after I leave work - its too inconvienent to have to go home after work and get it just to go back into town...(Gas, time, etc)...it would be alot easier if I were allowed to secure it in my vehicle while working...

    Anyway, I'd appreciate your support and your help in distributing the link if you are so inclined to do so...Thanks in advance!!

  10. #10
    Regular Member cbxer55's Avatar
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    I'd like to be involved, as I am in the same predicament. But seriously, do you believe this will ever happen? It'll be a cold day in he-- before the federal government ever allows this to transpire.
    Noble of you to think you can do something.
    Big waste of time IMHO.
    That's the way I see it.

  11. #11
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    According to 18 USC 930, it is legal to keep a firearm in your vehicle in the parking lot.

    18 U.S.C. 930 - POSSESSION OF FIREARMS AND DANGEROUS WEAPONS IN FEDERAL FACILITIES

    Facilities are defined as:

    (1) The term “Federal facility” means a building or part thereof owned or leased by the Federal Government, where Federal employees are regularly present for the purpose of performing their official duties.

    THERE IS NO MENTION OF ANY PARKING LOTS IN THIS LAW.

    I have noticed the VA is inconsistence when citing this law. The Tulsa Outpatient Clinic and the Muskogee VA Hospital have signs for 18USC930 posted at the entrance to the parking lots. BUT the Tulsa Mental Health and Muskogee Mental Health clinics do not, They use just the standard "No Weapons Allowed" signs posted on the door to the clinics.

    Now it would be reasonable to assume that since the 2 Mental Health Clinics are on property that is leased to the Government, that the lease would also include some parking areas around that building. The building where the Tulsa Mental health clinic is located also houses the National Weather Service, and there are no signs posted on the entrance to the building, just on the entrance to the clinic. So legally you CAN carry open or concealed into the building, just not the clinic.

    But according to: 38 CFR 1.218 - Security and law enforcement at VA facilities. Section 13:

    Title 38: Pensions, Bonuses, and Veterans' Relief

    CHAPTER I: DEPARTMENT OF VETERANS AFFAIRS

    PART 1: GENERAL PROVISIONS

    : Security and Law Enforcement at Department of Veterans Affairs Facilities

    1.218 - Security and law enforcement at VA facilities.

    (a) Authority and rules of conduct. Pursuant to 38 U.S.C. 901, the following rules and regulations apply at all property under the charge and control of VA (and not under the charge and control of the General Services Administration) and to all persons entering in or on such property. The head of the facility is charged with the responsibility for the enforcement of these rules and regulations and shall cause these rules and regulations to be posted in a conspicuous place on the property.


    (13) Weapons and explosives. No person while on property shall carry firearms, other dangerous or deadly weapons, or explosives, either openly or concealed, except for official purposes.

    But the term "property" is not defined in this regulation, but is defined in 38 USC 901

    38 U.S. CODE § 901 - AUTHORITY TO PRESCRIBE RULES FOR CONDUCT AND PENALTIES FOR VIOLATIONS

    (a)
    (1) The Secretary shall prescribe regulations to provide for the maintenance of law and order and the protection of persons and property on Department property.
    (2) In this chapter, the term “Department property” means land and buildings that are under the jurisdiction of the Department and are not under control of the Administrator of General Services.
    (b) Regulations under subsection (a) shall include—
    (1) rules for conduct on Department property; and
    (2) the penalties, within the limits specified in subsection (c), for violations of such rules.
    (c) Whoever violates any rule prescribed by regulation under subsection (b)(1) shall be fined in accordance with title 18 or imprisoned not more than six months, or both. The Secretary may prescribe by regulation a maximum fine less than that which would otherwise apply under the preceding sentence or a maximum term of imprisonment of a shorter period than that which would otherwise apply under the preceding sentence, or both. Any such regulation shall apply notwithstanding any provision of title 18 or any other law to the contrary.
    (d) The rules prescribed under subsection (a), together with the penalties for violations of such rules, shall be posted conspicuously on property to which they apply.
    (e) The Secretary shall consult with the Attorney General before prescribing regulations under this section.
    (f)
    (1) The Secretary may not prohibit the use of a covered service dog in any facility or on any property of the Department or in any facility or on any property that receives funding from the Secretary.
    (2) For purposes of this subsection, a covered service dog is a service dog that has been trained by an entity that is accredited by an appropriate accrediting body that evaluates and accredits organizations which train guide or service dogs.

    NOTE: 18 USC and 38 USC are Laws, but 38 CFR is a regulation.

    USC are Laws enacted by Congress, the CFR are Regulations written by Agencies.

    If the VA Reg is ever challenged, it could be overturned, because it is not well defined, just like when the 10th Circuit, determined that the Post Office could not prohibit guns in the parking lot.
    Last edited by Amigatec; 02-01-2014 at 07:29 AM.

  12. #12
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    @cbxer55 - You're probably right but what pisses me off is that the government controls us when we are supposed to be the ones controling the government. We've become sheeple and allowed the government to have powers they never should have had. But at least there's people out there trying to do things about it and stir up things and I'm behind them! For someone to make excuses, when it only takes a few seconds to sign a petition is about the same as giving up and surrendering and that's something I will never do!


    Quote Originally Posted by cbxer55 View Post
    I'd like to be involved, as I am in the same predicament. But seriously, do you believe this will ever happen? It'll be a cold day in he-- before the federal government ever allows this to transpire.
    Noble of you to think you can do something.
    Big waste of time IMHO.
    That's the way I see it.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by BikerGuy57 View Post
    @cbxer55 - You're probably right but what pisses me off is that the government controls us when we are supposed to be the ones controling the government. We've become sheeple and allowed the government to have powers they never should have had. But at least there's people out there trying to do things about it and stir up things and I'm behind them! For someone to make excuses, when it only takes a few seconds to sign a petition is about the same as giving up and surrendering and that's something I will never do!
    Signing up on a totally worthless petition is hardly the "same as giving up and surrendering." Such petitions will not have a scintilla, a soupçon, of effective benefit. They only divert productivity.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  14. #14
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    "Freedom is a fragile thing and is never more than one generation from extinction." -- Ronald Reagan

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    Quote Originally Posted by jrz_dad View Post
    "Freedom is a fragile thing and is never more than one generation from extinction." -- Ronald Reagan
    The whole enchilada is better - always.
    Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. We didn’t pass it on to our children in the bloodstream. It must be fought for, protected, and handed on for them to do the same, or one day we will spend our sunset years telling our children and our children's children what it was once like in the United States where men were free. Ronald Reagan, Address to the annual meeting of the Phoenix Chamber of Commerce, (30 March 1961)[my emphasis]
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

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