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Thread: Grand Rapids Tool

  1. #1
    Regular Member Raggs's Avatar
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    Grand Rapids Tool

    This shows what kind of tool we are dealing with http://www.mlive.com/news/grand-rapi...e_hear_22.html
    My reasons to OC
    1. to raise awareness of the legality of open carry in Michigan
    2. To raise awareness that good people carry guns
    3. A deterrent to people so that I won't be targeted
    4. Because it's more comfortable than CC in most situations
    5. Because I can and want to
    6. Because it's perfectly legal
    7. Self defense

  2. #2
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    He really hates me and apparently he didn't like my seminar a few weekends back.

    My message is one of education and understanding. Mayor Heartwell's message is one of fear and bigotry. You tell me where the righteousness lies.

  3. #3
    Regular Member Raggs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigt8261 View Post
    He really hates me and apparently he didn't like my seminar a few weekends back.

    My message is one of education and understanding. Mayor Heartwell's message is one of fear and bigotry. You tell me where the righteousness lies.
    We should see what it would take to have a seminar in the Grand Rapids Main Library
    My reasons to OC
    1. to raise awareness of the legality of open carry in Michigan
    2. To raise awareness that good people carry guns
    3. A deterrent to people so that I won't be targeted
    4. Because it's more comfortable than CC in most situations
    5. Because I can and want to
    6. Because it's perfectly legal
    7. Self defense

  4. #4
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigt8261 View Post
    He really hates me and apparently he didn't like my seminar a few weekends back.

    My message is one of education and understanding. Mayor Heartwell's message is one of fear and bigotry. You tell me where the righteousness lies.
    Heartwell isn't basing his message on logical thought, rather he bases it on his "feelings". I am not trying to be derogatory but every time I hear him speak I get the feeling he believes that he is a Kindergarten teacher talking to a bunch of five-year-olds... which to me makes him seem somewhat limited cognitively. Like I said, I'm not questioning his intelligence, rather that he has chosen to live life based on his feelings. This may be appropriate for a Kindergarten teacher, maybe even desirable. But as a Mayor leading a major metropolitan area, it is definitely not who I would choose as a leader.

    bigt8261, he only feels you are dangerous because you carry a gun... but in the same breath has no fear of the police officer who is armed in the same room. Yet, statistically the officer has a much greater chance to actually use the firearm in way that is dangerous to Mr Heartwell. But, like I said, logic is trumped by his "feelings".

    In Heartwell's world, I would guess that a person carrying a gun in some type of a uniform is "OK", but someone carrying a holstered pistol, but not wearing a uniform, is on that fact alone, dangerous. I guess he has forgotten how well the assumption that Uniform = "good guy" worked for the victims of Anders Breivik. Once again, the mayor lets his "feelings" trump whatever logical thought you would ever be able to bring up. Sigh.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer – I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

  5. #5
    Regular Member xmanhockey7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrTodd View Post
    Heartwell isn't basing his message on logical thought, rather he bases it on his "feelings". I am not trying to be derogatory but every time I hear him speak I get the feeling he believes that he is a Kindergarten teacher talking to a bunch of five-year-olds... which to me makes him seem somewhat limited cognitively. Like I said, I'm not questioning his intelligence, rather that he has chosen to live life based on his feelings. This may be appropriate for a Kindergarten teacher, maybe even desirable. But as a Mayor leading a major metropolitan area, it is definitely not who I would choose as a leader.

    bigt8261, he only feels you are dangerous because you carry a gun... but in the same breath has no fear of the police officer who is armed in the same room. Yet, statistically the officer has a much greater chance to actually use the firearm in way that is dangerous to Mr Heartwell. But, like I said, logic is trumped by his "feelings".

    In Heartwell's world, I would guess that a person carrying a gun in some type of a uniform is "OK", but someone carrying a holstered pistol, but not wearing a uniform, is on that fact alone, dangerous. I guess he has forgotten how well the assumption that Uniform = "good guy" worked for the victims of Anders Breivik. Once again, the mayor lets his "feelings" trump whatever logical thought you would ever be able to bring up. Sigh.
    Well said my friend.
    "No state shall convert a liberty to a privilege, license it, and charge a fee therefor.- Murdock vs Pennsylvania 319 US 105

    ...If the state converts a right into a privelege, the citizen can ignore the license and fee and engage in the right... with impunity.
    - Shuttleworth vs City of Birmingham, Alabama 317 US 262

    Where rights secured by the Constitution are involved, there can be no legislation which would abrogate them.
    - Miranda vs Arizona 384 US 436

  6. #6
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    I took the time to attend last night's Commission meeting and respond to the Mayor.

    Gun advocate responds to Mayor Heartwell, says message spreads 'confusion, fear and bigotry'

    http://www.mlive.com/news/grand-rapi..._to_mayor.html

    "My message is and has been one of education and understanding. Your message is and has been a message of confusion, fear and bigotry. I want more people to know the laws and understand them, where you want others to be confused about our laws and afraid of people such as me without first attempting to understand us. You tell me who the bully is there and where the righteousness lies."
    Last edited by bigt8261; 01-29-2014 at 11:42 AM.

  7. #7
    Regular Member OneForAll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigt8261 View Post
    I took the time to attend last night's Commission meeting and respond to the Mayor.
    Great response, well said.
    "To preserve liberty, it is essential that the whole body of the people always possess arms, and be taught alike, especially when young, how to use them."
    - Richard Henry Lee
    "The Constitution shall never be construed to prevent the people of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms."
    - Samuel Adams

    Some random person, "I will not give up safety because of a few misplaced concerns of the uneducated." end quote...

  8. #8
    Regular Member xmanhockey7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigt8261 View Post
    I took the time to attend last night's Commission meeting and respond to the Mayor.

    Gun advocate responds to Mayor Heartwell, says message spreads 'confusion, fear and bigotry'

    http://www.mlive.com/news/grand-rapi..._to_mayor.html

    "My message is and has been one of education and understanding. Your message is and has been a message of confusion, fear and bigotry. I want more people to know the laws and understand them, where you want others to be confused about our laws and afraid of people such as me without first attempting to understand us. You tell me who the bully is there and where the righteousness lies."
    To you as well Tom, well said. Glad we have someone as articulate and intelligent as you in GR. Keep up the good work.
    "No state shall convert a liberty to a privilege, license it, and charge a fee therefor.- Murdock vs Pennsylvania 319 US 105

    ...If the state converts a right into a privelege, the citizen can ignore the license and fee and engage in the right... with impunity.
    - Shuttleworth vs City of Birmingham, Alabama 317 US 262

    Where rights secured by the Constitution are involved, there can be no legislation which would abrogate them.
    - Miranda vs Arizona 384 US 436

  9. #9
    Regular Member DanM's Avatar
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    Excellent response, Tom. Thanks for your efforts!
    "The principle of self-defense, even involving weapons and bloodshed, has never been condemned, even by Gandhi . . ."--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr

    “He who cannot protect himself or his nearest and dearest or their honor by non-violently facing death, may and ought to do so by violently dealing with the oppressor. He who can do neither of the two is a burden.”--M. K. Gandhi

    "First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." --M. K. Gandhi

  10. #10
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DanM View Post
    Excellent response, Tom. Thanks for your efforts!
    Tom, thank you for all that you have done, and continue to do, in the service of liberty.

    Mr Heartwell chooses to become incoherently upset at the sight of mere citizens being able to protect themselves instead of handing off that "detestable task" to others. Although I do believe that his statements are truly indicative of his feelings, he does not understand that his emotion gets in the way of reason. To him we are a stereotype; he refuses to see you, me, and every other gun carrier as an individual. To him, gun carriers are heartless savages, in essence, evil. That you may seem to be anything other than HIS stereotype of a "typical gun" owner doesn't really equate, and so he blocks you out. When confronted by a reasonable gun owner, he flees and advocates that others do the same. Differences of opinion are fine, but his utter refusal to to reason, is very disturbing. The human ability for compassion is one of mankind's noble attributes, and he certainly has compassion for those that have been injured or killed through the misuse of firearms. However, letting his feelings run without being checked by intellect is the type of behavior that is more indicative of a criminal than a responsible member of society. To condemn the presence of firearms just because he has abdicated his ability to defend himself is to live a lie. To deny people the right to defend themselves with the most effective means available is to be blinded by misguided compassion. There is nothing in his words but raw emotion. He believes that his feelings are how "sophisticated" people feel, or are supposed to. According to the popular media, you should be uttering nonsensical grunts between his erudite speeches.

    Yet, he is the irrational one who prefers to place his feelings as the guidepost for public policy. Accepting that he is responsible for his own safety may be something he is faced with someday. Accepting the responsibility that comes with the carrying a firearm is a lot of responsibility to bear, but not accepting that those deemed society's protectors aren't able to be everywhere is certainly not pleasant. Not accepting the facts, however, only throws him into simple, unchecked emotion.
    Last edited by DrTodd; 01-29-2014 at 07:49 PM.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer – I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrTodd View Post
    Tom, thank you for all that you have done, and continue to do, in the service of liberty.

    Mr Heartwell chooses to become incoherently upset at the sight of mere citizens being able to protect themselves instead of handing off that "detestable task" to others. Although I do believe that his statements are truly indicative of his feelings, he does not understand that his emotion gets in the way of reason. To him we are a stereotype; he refuses to see you, me, and every other gun carrier as an individual. To him, gun carriers are heartless savages, in essence, evil. That you may seem to be anything other than HIS stereotype of a "typical gun" owner doesn't really equate, and so he blocks you out. When confronted by a reasonable gun owner, he flees and advocates that others do the same. Differences of opinion are fine, but his utter refusal to to reason, is very disturbing. The human ability for compassion is one of mankind's noble attributes, and he certainly has compassion for those that have been injured or killed through the misuse of firearms. However, letting his feelings run without being checked by intellect is the type of behavior that is more indicative of a criminal than a responsible member of society. To condemn the presence of firearms just because he has abdicated his ability to defend himself is to live a lie. To deny people the right to defend themselves with the most effective means available is to be blinded by misguided compassion. There is nothing in his words but raw emotion. He believes that his feelings are how "sophisticated" people feel, or are supposed to. According to the popular media, you should be uttering nonsensical grunts between his erudite speeches.

    Yet, he is the irrational one who prefers to place his feelings as the guidepost for public policy. Accepting that he is responsible for his own safety may be something he is faced with someday. Accepting the responsibility that comes with the carrying a firearm is a lot of responsibility to bear, but not accepting that those deemed society's protectors aren't able to be everywhere is certainly not pleasant. Not accepting the facts, however, only throws him into simple, unchecked emotion.
    Do you really think the Mayor feels that way? I think some people know better, but say such things just to further their agenda. I think it"s possible he knows better, but values the effectiveness of fomenting fear among the general citizenry. Fear can represent more consolidated power to him.

  12. #12
    Regular Member DanM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ghostrider View Post
    Do you really think the Mayor feels that way?
    It's very obvious. He is a hoplophobic and misanthropic ass. He is scared of an inanimate object and assumes the worst about his fellow man.

    What a sad sack he is.
    "The principle of self-defense, even involving weapons and bloodshed, has never been condemned, even by Gandhi . . ."--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr

    “He who cannot protect himself or his nearest and dearest or their honor by non-violently facing death, may and ought to do so by violently dealing with the oppressor. He who can do neither of the two is a burden.”--M. K. Gandhi

    "First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." --M. K. Gandhi

  13. #13
    Regular Member Ezerharden's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ghostrider View Post
    Do you really think the Mayor feels that way? I think some people know better, but say such things just to further their agenda. I think it"s possible he knows better, but values the effectiveness of fomenting fear among the general citizenry. Fear can represent more consolidated power to him.
    I tend to agree, it is mostly done to suit his agenda.
    Want to keep informed of Open Carry events in your area? Go to www.miopencarry.org/update

    I carry a gun because a Police Officer is too heavy.

    For Drama free gun rights discussion, see http://forums.michiganopencarry.org/

  14. #14
    Regular Member FreeInAZ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezerharden View Post
    I tend to agree, it is mostly done to suit his agenda.
    Which is IMHO = to "Do as I say pee ant citizen not as I do! I can circumvent the law all I want, but you better not do anything illegal or legal for that matter, that I don't like, or you will be made to pay....how dare you exercise your puny rights in MY TOWN!"
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YWyCCJ6B2WE
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    "You must be the change you wish to see in the world" by Mahatma Gandhi

    “Your beliefs become your thoughts. Your thoughts become your words. Your words become your actions. Your actions become your habits. Your habits become your values. Your values become your destiny.” by Mahatma Gandhi

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