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  1. #1
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    Quick question.

    First off let me say that I am only asking this because it will be part of my halloween costume for this year, and I like to plan ahead so that I can get everything I will need in advance and save me a headache in the long run. Now I understand that talking about long gun carry is against the rules in a state where handgun carry is allowed, but I am only bringing it up so that I know what I can and can not do for halloween.

    I am planning on going as a WW2 Russian soldier, I own a Nagant revolver and a Mosin nagant rifle so I figured it would be the perfect thing. But I do not know if I can carry the rifle with me, I don't intend to carry a rifle any other time except for that night and my Nagant is my only carry weapon for any other day. Now I have tried looking around myself, but I can't find any info and so I figured that if anyone would know it would be the people on here.

    If my post is still breaking the rule I don't have a problem deleting it, I just am stumped is all.

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    http://www.moga.mo.gov/statutes/C500-599/5710000030.HTM

    http://www.moga.mo.gov/statutes/c000-099/0210000750.htm

    There may be a local code that prohibits the OC of your pistol & rifle based on the jurisdiction. If you have a CCW endorsement some jurisdictions "permit" the OC of a firearm.

    Given the context of your post I think that you are not discussing the OC of a LG as defined by the forum rules. But, I am not the final arbiter.

    The statutes provided above are the ones that local governments use to infringe upon your right to OC a firearm.

    Check the/your local codes.

    If a cop sees you dressed as a Ruskie soldier they may check your firearms to determine their "realness." The rifle, in my humble opinion, should remain unloaded. A cop may give you a pass on the unloaded rifle because a rifle without ammo (no ammo on your person, or your friends person, could be considered "readily available) is functionally nonfunctional under RSMo 571.030 and local codes (I hope, local codes are notoriously out of date in may jurisdictions) and thus not a violation of state or local law.

    If the pistol is your daily carry it will likely be loaded. Thus you will be subject to the OC of a firearm laws if any exist in the trick-or-treat jurisdiction.

    Good luck and welcome to OCDO.

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    In all honesty, I would very strongly recommend against carrying the real thing for 2 reasons:

    1) Should the SAPA pass, long gun OC will be illegal. This was a compromise that had to be made so that statewide pistol OC can pass. It does no good to be upset about it for one day of the year.

    2) Should SAPA not pass (god forbid), someone OCing a rifle is extremely likely to make passage in the next session extremely difficult, if not impossible.

    Short version: as much as I wish I could wholeheartedly endorse carrying the real thing, it is an extremely bad idea.
    Last edited by Oramac; 01-29-2014 at 04:05 PM.
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    He will not be OCing a LG. In his op he clearly states such. The rifle will a component of his costume for Halloween. If the rifle is unloaded and ammo is not readily available, under current law, he does not violate the statute. If the SAPA gets passed, who knows. But, my reading of the proposed bill does not indicate that 571.030 will change if the rifle (firearm) is unloaded and no ammo.

    To amke any LEO interaction go "smoothly" a unloaded rifle will satisfy curious LEOs and they will be on their way post haste. The pistol, different issue.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    To amke any LEO interaction go "smoothly" a unloaded rifle will satisfy curious LEOs and they will be on their way post haste.

    You sure about that? I'm not. Too many power hungry cops out there who don't give a rip and don't know the law.

    (No offense intended to those few awesome cops who DO know the law and aren't power hungry!)
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    Am I sure? No, nothing is guaranteed. A cop who does not know the law and hassles the OP would be at great risk for a rights violation if the OP follows the law. The vast majority of cops would simply ask if the rifle is unloaded, if they ask at all, get a response to the affirmative and move on. The pistol may require more interaction, most cops don't hassle folks for OC where OC is not prohibited.....in my limited experience, that is.

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    Yeah, was not planning on having the rifle loaded since it is not my carry weapon. As for hassle, the cops in my town don't hassle me that much. Now they do drive past me a lot when I am outside, and I have had my car followed a few times through town. Lol. At least I know that if something happens the police are close at hand...Lol.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oramac View Post
    In all honesty, I would very strongly recommend against carrying the real thing for 2 reasons:

    1) Should the SAPA pass, long gun OC will be illegal. This was a compromise that had to be made so that statewide pistol OC can pass. It does no good to be upset about it for one day of the year.

    2) Should SAPA not pass (god forbid), someone OCing a rifle is extremely likely to make passage in the next session extremely difficult, if not impossible.

    Short version: as much as I wish I could wholeheartedly endorse carrying the real thing, it is an extremely bad idea.
    Whoa whoa whoa. I had no idea this was part of the deal. 2nd amendment protection my ass. If this is what we're advocating I want no part. What if I walk from my house to my car with my rifle i can be cited? I don't want to go backwards here.

    This weakened version of the sapa not only won't really help most of Missourians (since only a few municipalities ban oc) but it sounds like it's going to end up hurting all of us.

    Not worth it.
    Last edited by bigb360; 02-06-2014 at 12:24 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigb360 View Post
    Whoa whoa whoa. I had no idea this was part of the deal. 2nd amendment protection my ass. If this is what we're advocating I want no part. What if I walk from my house to my car with my rifle i can be cited? I don't want to go backwards here.

    This weakened version of the sapa not only won't really help most of Missourians (since only a few municipalities ban oc) but it sounds like it's going to end up hurting all of us.

    Not worth it.
    Your concern is valid. However there is little evidence to suggest that more political subdivisions will ban OC w/o a endorsement. There is evidence that most political subdivision will do nothing because they have not banned OC these many years via RSMo 21.750.3. The SAPA is clearly aimed at the feds and the OC with a endorsement provision is included to "permit" OC in those few political subdivision who do use RSMo 21.750.3. I could be wrong and more place will ban OC w/o a endorsement but I do not think this to be a real concern. For example, Wentzville permits OC with a endorsement, has so for a few years now. We shall see.

    While I disagree with the premise, permission, it will mitigate negative encounters with LE in the few places that ban OC now. Of course, negative encounters with LE can and do happen where OC is not banned and these encounters may continue. OCing is little noticed as it is now by our fellow citizens and a minor increase in their exposure to OC is a good thing.

    My only concern is that local top cops (anti-liberty top cops) will enact department policies that "hassle" OCers in those places that banned OC. There will be nothing the OCer can do about it and must comply with the law. Be prepared and record record record.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    <snip>

    My only concern is that local top cops (anti-liberty top cops) will enact department policies that "hassle" OCers in those places that banned OC. There will be nothing the OCer can do about it and must comply with the law. Be prepared and record record record.
    I am have difficulty loading SB 778. Is there a provision that states that OC is not RAS/PC? in other words, a cop can not just approach you to check for a valid endorsement. I don't not recall such a provision, but I could be wrong. If this issue is not addressed at all then OC is RAS/PC.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigb360 View Post
    Whoa whoa whoa. I had no idea this was part of the deal. 2nd amendment protection my ass. If this is what we're advocating I want no part. What if I walk from my house to my car with my rifle i can be cited? I don't want to go backwards here.

    This weakened version of the sapa not only won't really help most of Missourians (since only a few municipalities ban oc) but it sounds like it's going to end up hurting all of us.

    Not worth it.
    I hate to say it, but if you want OC at all, this is how it's gonna be. It's not perfect, but if it were written any other way, it wouldn't even be in there.

    Besides, OC is legal on your own property regardless of SAPA or not. Carrying your gun to your car is irrelevant to the discussion.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oramac View Post
    I hate to say it, but if you want OC at all, this is how it's gonna be. It's not perfect, but if it were written any other way, it wouldn't even be in there.

    Besides, OC is legal on your own property regardless of SAPA or not. Carrying your gun to your car is irrelevant to the discussion.
    Huh? I can already open carry wherever I want because no town around me prohibits it. I don't want to suffer because of a few silly municipalities around st Louis.

    The other day I walked from my cousins house across the street to my car with my rifle. If you get this through with this wording I can be cited for it. That's crap. If this is the cost I don't want it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    Your concern is valid. However there is little evidence to suggest that more political subdivisions will ban OC w/o a endorsement. There is evidence that most political subdivision will do nothing because they have not banned OC these many years via RSMo 21.750.3. The SAPA is clearly aimed at the feds and the OC with a endorsement provision is included to "permit" OC in those few political subdivision who do use RSMo 21.750.3. I could be wrong and more place will ban OC w/o a endorsement but I do not think this to be a real concern. For example, Wentzville permits OC with a endorsement, has so for a few years now. We shall see.

    While I disagree with the premise, permission, it will mitigate negative encounters with LE in the few places that ban OC now. Of course, negative encounters with LE can and do happen where OC is not banned and these encounters may continue. OCing is little noticed as it is now by our fellow citizens and a minor increase in their exposure to OC is a good thing.

    My only concern is that local top cops (anti-liberty top cops) will enact department policies that "hassle" OCers in those places that banned OC. There will be nothing the OCer can do about it and must comply with the law. Be prepared and record record record.
    Are you saying only the municipalities that already ban oc will have the long gun prohibition? From my reading it's vague.

    Fyi, I'm not trying to propagate a conversation about long gun oc, but since the topic was breached and I was surprised by what's in the law.
    Last edited by bigb360; 02-06-2014 at 07:46 PM.

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    R\walking around at night with a rifle

    At what point did someone think for a second this was a good idea?

    To pick a night when police are already on high alert for a great deal of petty crime to go running around in the dark with a rifle is a damn good way to get yourself shot dead.

    I think this is a really stupid idea.

    I also fully support the right to be stupid.

    I don't think it should be illegal at an level, but be clear I would not find it as a surprise if an officer aerated you at all. Tragic and sad yes, a surprise not really, there have been a lot of folks shot with a bb gun or a toy gun in low light conditions so why not an antique Russian assault rifle or whatever other tagline the press will put on it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigb360 View Post
    Are you saying only the municipalities that already ban oc will have the long gun prohibition? From my reading it's vague.

    Fyi, I'm not trying to propagate a conversation about long gun oc, but since the topic was breached and I was surprised by what's in the law.
    There is no differentiation in the law between handgun or rifle. 571.030 ans 21.750.3 only refer to firearm.

    The context of the viewed carry is everything. Halloween night? I have not heard of any kids getting gunned down by cops for lugging a air soft/BB gun around with their bag of candy. Though, I'd certainly not be trick or treating by myself in the OPs costume. If he is trick or treating with sexy witches, sexy nurses, zombies, and that Scary Movie guy, a cop ain't gunna look twice, may not even look once, let alone stop and check the gun.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigb360 View Post
    Huh? I can already open carry wherever I want because no town around me prohibits it. I don't want to suffer because of a few silly municipalities around st Louis.

    The other day I walked from my cousins house across the street to my car with my rifle. If you get this through with this wording I can be cited for it. That's crap. If this is the cost I don't want it.
    (sarcasm) Thanks. I really appreciate your concern for your fellow man and his rights as well. (/sarcasm)

    Whoop-de-do. You can OC right now. Awesome. I applaud you. Guess what, after it passes, YOU STILL CAN! Currently, I can't, nor can thousands of other law-abiding citizens in this State. Besides, as has been stated, a long gun in a carrying case is not open carry. Hell, I've seen people use gun cases to keep guitars in. For all anyone knows, you're a musician carrying a bass around.

    TL;DR: You're gonna be fine. Quit bitching.
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    First off, I would not be running around at night. I would be walking with my family with the rifle slung on my shoulder unloaded. It would be worn only as a prop to the rest of the costume. And since I do not want to draw any negative attention towards OC I will simply go as something else I think, might do a Texas Ranger get up.

    And while I might not agree with banning any sort of Open Carry, I think that if it will allow a person to carry a handgun for defense in a place that had once banned any form of OC than I will support it as much as I can even if I do not fully agree.

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    No law against carrying a unload rifle, or pistol.....ammo not readily available that is. You will be fine I suspect. However, going around as a Ruskie soldier is what I'm concerned about, a Texas ranger ain't that much better......it's a Texas thing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oramac View Post
    (sarcasm) Thanks. I really appreciate your concern for your fellow man and his rights as well. (/sarcasm)

    Whoop-de-do. You can OC right now. Awesome. I applaud you. Guess what, after it passes, YOU STILL CAN! Currently, I can't, nor can thousands of other law-abiding citizens in this State. Besides, as has been stated, a long gun in a carrying case is not open carry. Hell, I've seen people use gun cases to keep guitars in. For all anyone knows, you're a musician carrying a bass around.

    TL;DR: You're gonna be fine. Quit bitching.
    Or we could not go backwards and capitulate one right for another. You're really willing to give up one for the other?

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    Quote Originally Posted by 7om5hipp View Post
    First off, I would not be running around at night.
    Well your first post said "that night" call it my bad for not understanding that it would mean night aka dark or low light.
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    Halloween night? I have not heard of any kids getting gunned down by cops for lugging a air soft/BB gun around with their bag of candy.
    http://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/201...with-fake-gun/

    http://nypost.com/2013/11/04/connect...e-on-lockdown/

    There was a story a few years back about an idiot who pointed one in a cops face and lived to tell about it, they referenced it as "felony stupid" and frankly I think the term fits, not that it should however be illegal, just call it proof Darwin was right.

    While I appreciate that you have never heard of it happening, you have heard of officers responding poorly to bb guns on other days or even real guns, it is just part of life today. May I offer an alternate perspective on the "I ain't heard of it" theory.

    I ain't heard of anyone being trampled to death by a bull after sneaking up behind it and punting it in the sack, but I ain't gonna try it, but also do not think it should be illegal.

    Anyone giving this a shot, please post a link to the video.
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    You completely missed my point. No problem.
    The context of the viewed carry is everything. Halloween night? I have not heard of any kids getting gunned down by cops for lugging a air soft/BB gun around with their bag of candy. Though, I'd certainly not be trick or treating by myself in the OPs costume. If he is trick or treating with sexy witches, sexy nurses, zombies, and that Scary Movie guy, a cop ain't gunna look twice, may not even look once, let alone stop and check the gun.
    I'll withdraw from this conversation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    You completely missed my point. No problem.I'll withdraw from this conversation.


    Not sure I missed the point and I am aware mine is some what unusual however it has happened on several occasions aka increased risk.

    The guy in the top link got 5 million in settlement, though that is a hell of a way to get it.

    There have also been some that walked, in one situation, the police shot through the window on Halloween night and killed the guy at a loud party. Seems they spotted him inside with a gun in his hand and aerated him. It was a prop gun and they were found justified after being called therre on a loud noise complaint. i think that it was in oakland, I forget.
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    IT'S FRIGGIN' FEBRUARY!

    Anyone have any ideas on what I can get my girlfriend for Christmas?

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigb360 View Post
    Or we could not go backwards and capitulate one right for another. You're really willing to give up one for the other?
    No I'm not. Nor would I be. SAPA does NOT interfere with your right to OC in the slightest. As has been stated a firearm in a carrying case IS NOT open carry. Thus, you cannot be charged for it.
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