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Thread: Anyone ever seen a traffic ticket like this?

  1. #1
    Regular Member J1MB0B's Avatar
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    Anyone ever seen a traffic ticket like this?

    My sister got stopped for speeding a while back. She got her discovery today.
    Look at the officer's "report", if you can call it that. It doesn't have any identifying information on her or her vehicle, no case number, no ticket number, no officer's signature or certification statement.
    I don't know what to make of it, I've never seen one like this before. Sorry, the images kind of suck, but if you zoom in they are clear enough to read.
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    Last edited by J1MB0B; 01-29-2014 at 03:24 AM. Reason: To remove personal information.

  2. #2
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    Looks pretty standard to me. I had like 2 tickets that looked just like that. The case number is actually the infraction number, and the signature is "electronic". Implied, basically. If you contest it, they'll should give you a court date and location. 5 mph over, ehh, looks like the officer was bored.

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    Last edited by Alsherry; 01-29-2014 at 01:16 AM.

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    Last edited by deanf; 01-29-2014 at 02:43 PM.

  4. #4
    Regular Member Stretch's Avatar
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    Looks normal to me. You may want to blot out her name on image 1 lower right.

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    Regular Member 509rifas's Avatar
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    All of it looked pretty standard to me, there is a report (and most infraction reports look like that) and an infraction case number that was stamped over on the top. All infractions have a case number, and if you care to, you can look them up in the WA Court database.
    Last edited by 509rifas; 01-29-2014 at 02:28 AM. Reason: Shoulda read the whole report first.
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  6. #6
    Regular Member J1MB0B's Avatar
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    On the second page posted, there is a designated place for the officers report. It says "The information in and attatched to this citation/notice of infraction is incorporated by reference into this report." Every ticket I have ever seen, and Ive had more than my fair share, has the officers report in that space.
    The third page posted is what I assume that statment is refering to.
    That entire page has no identifying information at all. It could have been a page from an unrelated ticket picked up off a clerks desk by mistake.
    It isnt signed electronicaly or with ink by the officer. It could have been made up and written by anyone.
    You would think that if they are going to use a continuation sheet or other documentation as eveidence, it would have the same identification markings printed in the margin like the other two pages.
    Last edited by J1MB0B; 01-29-2014 at 03:11 AM.

  7. #7
    Regular Member J1MB0B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stretch View Post
    Looks normal to me. You may want to blot out her name on image 1 lower right.

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    Changed. I just posted what she sent and assumed that she would have blurred out whatever she wanted to be kept private.

  8. #8
    Regular Member Freedom1Man's Avatar
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    What is the make and model number of the LIDAR machine?
    Where is the record of the calibration?
    Was she the only car on the road? (most manuals state that for an accurate reading that the target must be the only one on the road.
    Where is the copy of his training certification?
    Has that police station ever changes makes/models of LIDAR in that 17 years?
    How does LIDAR work?
    But wait, the type of LIDAR changed in 2006, less than 17 years ago...
    LIDAR has been thrown out of courts due to lack of scientific accuracy.
    ETC.
    Don't give up!

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    Put up a good fight!

    There are a whole list of questions to keep asking.

    Where is the engineering study required per RCWs 46.61.400 and 46.61.405?
    Where is the local authorities review per RCW 46.61.415?
    How was your sister (?) acting in an unsafe manor?

    ETC ETC
    Last edited by Freedom1Man; 01-29-2014 at 07:37 AM.
    Provision for free medical attendance and nursing, for clothing, for food, for housing, for the education of children, and a hundred other matters, might with equal propriety be proposed as tending to relieve the employee of mental strain and worry. --- These matters obviously lie outside the orbit of congressional power. (Railroad Retirement Board v Alton Railroad)

  9. #9
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    Under WA special rules regarding ticket adjudication one can conduct and investigation; hindering such investigation would be a violation of the discovery rules.

    Suggest she go over to measure the range that they use to check the LIDAR device ...

    They'll likely not allow her to and then she can file a motion to dismiss for failure to follow discovery rules.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Freedom1Man View Post
    Where is the engineering study required per RCWs 46.61.400 and 46.61.405?
    Where is the local authorities review per RCW 46.61.415?
    How was your sister (?) acting in an unsafe manor?
    ETC ETC
    Not sure how the above questions are material in this case. RCW 46.61.400 states the maximum speed limit for state highways will be set at 60mph:

    2) Except when a special hazard exists that requires lower speed for compliance with subsection (1) of this section, the limits specified in this section or established as hereinafter authorized shall be maximum lawful speeds, and no person shall drive a vehicle on a highway at a speed in excess of such maximum limits.

    (a) Twenty-five miles per hour on city and town streets;

    (b) Fifty miles per hour on county roads;

    (c) Sixty miles per hour on state highways[/SIZE][/SIZE]


    The only statute that would actually apply in this case is RCW 46.61.410 as RCW 46.61.415 specifically states the speed limit may increase but not to more than 60mph. RCW 46.61.405 does not apply because it only addresses reduction of the speed limit by the secretary of transportation.

    Although RCW 46.61.410 mentions an engineering investigation, in this case it would not be required as the section of highway she was cited for exceeding the speed limit on is set at 60mph which is the normal state maximum. The secretary of transportation would need to conduct an engineering and traffic investigation study to determine if it is safe to increas the speed limit of that section of road abovce 60mph, per the exception set forth by RCW 46.61.410 to increase the state maximum limit.

    The other questions you suggest about LIDAR are still relevant and should be looked into if the person who received the speeding ticket plans on contesting it.

    -Z

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    The real question one should be asking is...

    ...what is the relevance of this thread to OC or firearms?

    -Z
    Last edited by Zohan; 01-29-2014 at 10:21 AM.

  12. #12
    Regular Member Primus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zohan View Post
    The real question one should be asking is...

    ...what is the relevance of this thread to OC or firearms?

    -Z
    When he was typing the post he was in the same building as some guns?

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  13. #13
    Regular Member J1MB0B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zohan View Post
    The real question one should be asking is...

    ...what is the relevance of this thread to OC or firearms?

    -Z
    I forgot to mention that at the time of the stop she was open carrying. He did t ask, she didnt tell. The only thing out of her mouth was "I dont answer questions, am I free to go."

    Is your boat floating yet?

  14. #14
    Regular Member J1MB0B's Avatar
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    Im not trying to help her get out of it, Im just curious about how the paperwork was done.

  15. #15
    Regular Member Freedom1Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zohan View Post
    Not sure how the above questions are material in this case. RCW 46.61.400 states the maximum speed limit for state highways will be set at 60mph:

    2) Except when a special hazard exists that requires lower speed for compliance with subsection (1) of this section, the limits specified in this section or established as hereinafter authorized shall be maximum lawful speeds, and no person shall drive a vehicle on a highway at a speed in excess of such maximum limits.

    (a) Twenty-five miles per hour on city and town streets;

    (b) Fifty miles per hour on county roads;

    (c) Sixty miles per hour on state highways[/SIZE][/SIZE]


    The only statute that would actually apply in this case is RCW 46.61.410 as RCW 46.61.415 specifically states the speed limit may increase but not to more than 60mph. RCW 46.61.405 does not apply because it only addresses reduction of the speed limit by the secretary of transportation.

    Although RCW 46.61.410 mentions an engineering investigation, in this case it would not be required as the section of highway she was cited for exceeding the speed limit on is set at 60mph which is the normal state maximum. The secretary of transportation would need to conduct an engineering and traffic investigation study to determine if it is safe to increas the speed limit of that section of road abovce 60mph, per the exception set forth by RCW 46.61.410 to increase the state maximum limit.

    The other questions you suggest about LIDAR are still relevant and should be looked into if the person who received the speeding ticket plans on contesting it.

    -Z
    Oh? Then why is it 65 and 70 on parts of I-5 and I-90 that are still in Washington?
    Provision for free medical attendance and nursing, for clothing, for food, for housing, for the education of children, and a hundred other matters, might with equal propriety be proposed as tending to relieve the employee of mental strain and worry. --- These matters obviously lie outside the orbit of congressional power. (Railroad Retirement Board v Alton Railroad)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alsherry View Post
    5 mph over, ehh, looks like the officer was bored.
    It looks like he cut her a break and actually got her going 70+ but wrote it for a lesser fine of 5 over.

  17. #17
    Regular Member Freedom1Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 5918mike View Post
    It looks like he cut her a break and actually got her going 70+ but wrote it for a lesser fine of 5 over.
    So, can you hold a laser on a 1" dot at over 200 yards away on a target that is moving in more than 1 direct?
    Provision for free medical attendance and nursing, for clothing, for food, for housing, for the education of children, and a hundred other matters, might with equal propriety be proposed as tending to relieve the employee of mental strain and worry. --- These matters obviously lie outside the orbit of congressional power. (Railroad Retirement Board v Alton Railroad)

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    Regular Member Primus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Freedom1Man View Post
    So, can you hold a laser on a 1" dot at over 200 yards away on a target that is moving in more than 1 direct?
    Why would it be a 1in dot? Its the center mass of the vehicle your trying to hit. Depending on the vehicle that's a pretty big target. Also have you seen a lidar set up? Has a full butt stock rig to keep it steady. Plus a reticle to "sight" the target.

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    I wrote thousands of speed citations with LIDAR the one I used cover about 8 inch's at 200 yards. No trouble holding it steady enough to get a good solid reading.

    A judge asked me the same question about holding it steady I informed him a shoot prairie dogs out to 500 yards and a car is a lot bigger then they are.

    If one was not steady on the target vehicle you wouldn't get a reading.

    They are a very accurate single vehicle capable speed measuring device when used properly

    In Wis. the speed equipment information was never put on the actual citation but always made available to the defendant during disclosure or at time of trial.
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  20. #20
    Regular Member Freedom1Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Primus View Post
    Why would it be a 1in dot? Its the center mass of the vehicle your trying to hit. Depending on the vehicle that's a pretty big target. Also have you seen a lidar set up? Has a full butt stock rig to keep it steady. Plus a reticle to "sight" the target.

    Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk
    If it, the laser, moves from the bumper to the top of the car in the time it takes to do a reading it will measure that change in distance into the speed calculated reading.
    Provision for free medical attendance and nursing, for clothing, for food, for housing, for the education of children, and a hundred other matters, might with equal propriety be proposed as tending to relieve the employee of mental strain and worry. --- These matters obviously lie outside the orbit of congressional power. (Railroad Retirement Board v Alton Railroad)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Freedom1Man View Post
    Oh? Then why is it 65 and 70 on parts of I-5 and I-90 that are still in Washington?
    It would seem you did not read my whole post thoroughly nor the RCWs cited. RCW RCW 46.61.400 establishes the normative max speed limit for WA at 60mph, RCW 46.61.410 gives authority to the Secretary of Transportation to raise the speed limit after an engineering and safety study whose findings would support the change to a higher speed limit...hence the 65 and 70mph limits on parts of I-5 and I-90.

    Your argument is interesting though as a comparison to California law. In CA there is a basic speed law and Max speed law. The max speed law establishes 55mph for undivided highways and 65 for divided highways. CA law states that one cannot exceed these max limits unless a higher speed limit is posted (as they have some roads that are above 65mph). Under the basic speed law if one exceeds the posted limit but does not exceed the max speed limits for divided/undivided highways then they can succesfuly contest the ticket if they were otherwise driving safely for the time of day, the road surface, the weather, etc AND there was no study conducted in the last 7 years to support the posted speed limit. In contrast Washington law establishes maximum speed limits for highways, towns, etc, making no distinction between divided or undivided roadways. In CA if one exceeds the statutory max speed even in a zone with an arbitrarily posted speed limit (one with no supporting study) they are in violation of the max speed law (as opposed to violating the basic speed law) and cannot argue they were otherwise driving safely.

    Again, there is nothing in the RCWs that requires WA state to conduct a study to set the max speed of a highway to 60mph other than the study used when the roadway was originally designed. The fact that a study may not have been conducted by the state to determine if the speed limit could be safely set higher for the section of road the OP's relative was stopped and cited is not material.

    If you disagree then state your argument(s),

    -Z
    Last edited by Zohan; 01-29-2014 at 06:21 PM. Reason: Edited to clarify examples and correct CA Max speed limits

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by J1MB0B View Post
    Is your boat floating yet?
    What does this mean?

    -Z
    Last edited by Zohan; 01-29-2014 at 06:09 PM.

  23. #23
    Regular Member J1MB0B's Avatar
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    It was a play on the phrase "whatever floats your boat". A smart ass way of asking if you are satisfied yet.

  24. #24
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    need more help?

    Moving Violations and Traffic Tickets (Washington Forum)
    http://www.expertlaw.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=143

  25. #25
    Regular Member J1MB0B's Avatar
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    Rule IRLJ 3.3 (c) Rules of Evidence.
    The Rules of Evidence and statutes that relate to evidence in infraction cases shall apply to contested hearings. The court may consider the notice of infraction and any other written report made under oath submitted by the officer who issued the notice or whose written statement was the basis for the issuance of the notice in lieu of the officer's personal appearance at the hearing...

    The designated spot for the officer's report has the statement making that page a written report made under oath and an electronic signature. The "case report" has no statement, signature(electronic or otherwise), or any identifying information at all that links it to her or the notice of infraction. One would think that if it had the labeling that the other pages have in the margins with the identifying info it would be included, but this page could have come from anywhere.

    Smoking gun or too much of a stretch?

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