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Thread: common school policy about OC

  1. #1
    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
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    common school policy about OC

    .



    This was posted on the MOC FB page. Apparently this policy has been suggested to several schools / school boards in Michigan, so those of you who are the activist sort need to make sure yours isn't planning something stupid like this. And WHY is a county prosecutor having anything to do with school policy? There's nothing illegal about OC on school grounds, but there is about inciting panic (which is what this policy does to schools, staff, students, etc.) as well as wasting police resources.

    This is the comment which was posted on FB:
    These are "guidelines" that county prosecutors are proposing to school superintendents. This came from Tuscola County Prosecutor Mark Reene, although I can see that he simply copied it from OAISD which would be Ottawa County.



    .

  2. #2
    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
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    Here's my analysis:

    On pg 2, that "general guideline" #3 conflicts with #1.
    Wouldn't surprise me if #2 conflicted with #1 also.
    #5 - classroom visits arranged 2 days prior?? What are they trying to hide? What are teachers doing that they would change when they knew a parent would be present?
    On all pages, remove the quotes around open carry. In some places it could be replaced with openly carried, but in general should just say pistol.

    Page 3, #4, 5, & 7 - can only see your kid after police have checked you out, and only in a special area?!?! Again, why are they persecuting the good parents, and why treat them so differently from everyone else?
    Why waste police time responding to a MWAG (which you _know_ is how they'll call it in) when the principal could look at it & see the expiration date? (Surely at least the principal would be smart enough to be able to figure out that the date on the card is before or after the current date.)

    #6 might conflict with state law - is there anything in state law saying that pistols must remain in their holster, or that long guns are not allowed on school property?

    #8 - why waste the time of police or the principal escorting a parent around the school, when they don't waste their time on any other parent... who might have a concealed gun, or a knife?

    #10 sounds like they're going to notify every teacher & volunteer & parent in the school, and are refusing to extend equal protection to all visitors, based on their legal exercise of a civil right

    Page 4, "shelter in place! call law enforcement!"
    What a waste of resources, and they're scaring the kids too. > Getting them used to being treated like criminals.
    I'm curious to hear what the police chief thinks about this proposed plan, the waste of manpower.

  3. #3
    Regular Member Raggs's Avatar
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    I would think that the second the pistol came out of the holster most judges would be happy to convict you of brandishing. The other part of it is off topic in this forum as it pertains to long guns.
    My reasons to OC
    1. to raise awareness of the legality of open carry in Michigan
    2. To raise awareness that good people carry guns
    3. A deterrent to people so that I won't be targeted
    4. Because it's more comfortable than CC in most situations
    5. Because I can and want to
    6. Because it's perfectly legal
    7. Self defense

  4. #4
    Regular Member FreeInAZ's Avatar
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    This topic is very important IMHO. Why? Public schools not only in MI, across the entire USA continue to write & impose policies that are contrary to the law! If groups of freedom loving Americans stood up, organized and held organized, calm, demonstrations on the public sidewalks near schools, things would change quickly. The administration of these rogue school systems would be faced with a choice: close /lockdown schools every time one of these demonstrations occurred. Or simply acknowledge their policies are bunk and do nothing to protect anyone.

    If the planners of these demonstrations was smart and did them in the morning just before school started; this would keep the kids from being in class. Why is this important? If enough students miss school, the school system loses federal & state money. No administration wants to admit it, but what really counts is money.


    Now the objective would not be to punish kids & parents for stupid and immoral school policies. So organizers should make every effort at getting the message out in the press days prior to demonstrations and also use the media to explain that a legal activity should not be forbidden by irrational school policies. Done well, this could stop the nonsense in schools across the country.

    This may never happen - but if it does I'll be joining the ranks of peaceful demonstrators, law-abiding citizens who want nothing more than a fighting chance to live. Also to make school less of a mass shooters wet dream, as they would then know a high probability of bullets coming their way would make their success less likely. These pukes want to die, however what they really want is to have their names in the media for years after their cowardly acts ...they won't get that if they can only kill one or two people before they are shot dead... end of school mass shootings...maybe.

    Edit = add content/clarity
    Last edited by FreeInAZ; 02-05-2014 at 03:07 PM.
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  5. #5
    Regular Member OneForAll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FreeInAZ View Post
    This topic is very important IMHO. Why? Public schools not only in MI, across the entire USA continue to write & impose policies that are contrary to the law! If groups of freedom loving Americans stood up, organized and held organized, calm, demonstrations on the public sidewalks near schools, things would change quickly. The administration of these rogue school systems would be faced with a choice: close /lockdown schools every time one of these demonstrations occurred. Or simply acknowledge their policies are bunk and do nothing to protect anyone.

    If the planners of these demonstrations thought smart and did them in the mornings just before school started; this would keep the kids from being in class. Why is this important? If enough students miss school, the school system loses federal & state money.

    Now the objective would not be to punish kids & parents for stupid and immoral school policies. So organizers should make every effort at getting the message out in the press days prior to demonstrations and also use the media to explain that a legal activity should not be forbidden by irrational school policies. Done well, this could stop the nonsense in schools across the country.

    This may never happen - but if it does I'll be joining the ranks of peaceful demonstrators, law-abiding citizens who want nothing more than a fighting chance to live.
    Great post FreeInAZ, you deserve a pat on the back for a great idea! Fight fire with fire, if you want to lockdown our kids and prevent their education because of a lawful activity, then we will cause more lockdowns to prevent the kids from even entering the building to affect schools funding.
    "To preserve liberty, it is essential that the whole body of the people always possess arms, and be taught alike, especially when young, how to use them."
    - Richard Henry Lee
    "The Constitution shall never be construed to prevent the people of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms."
    - Samuel Adams

    Some random person, "I will not give up safety because of a few misplaced concerns of the uneducated." end quote...

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    [QUOTE=MKEgal;2032275].
    This was posted on the MOC FB page. Apparently this policy has been suggested to several schools / school boards in Michigan, so those of you who are the activist sort need to make sure yours isn't planning something stupid like this.[QUOTE]

    Anybody have a better link to that document? I couldn't open it. I hope it doesn't require logging because I don't do Facebook.

  7. #7
    Regular Member FreeInAZ's Avatar
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    I hear Oc4me... I don't either. IMHO it is a data mining / tracking/ surveillance - treasure for the government. Couple this with the "stupid/troll" factor of a growing # of users and I say ...no thanks.
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  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by FreeInAZ View Post
    I hear Oc4me... I don't either. IMHO it is a data mining / tracking/ surveillance - treasure for the government. Couple this with the "stupid/troll" factor of a growing # of users and I say ...no thanks.
    ;-) All the same, I'd really like to see that school document. Can anyone post or PM me a better link? I've got kids in the local school and I'd sure like to know what the heck this 'prosecutor' is sending out to our school administration.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OC4me View Post
    ;-) All the same, I'd really like to see that school document. Can anyone post or PM me a better link? I've got kids in the local school and I'd sure like to know what the heck this 'prosecutor' is sending out to our school administration.
    I tried to find one, and search-foo is very strong with me, but without joy.
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    I tried to find one, and search-foo is very strong with me, but without joy.
    Thanks Nightmare! Hopefully someone will come along who has a link or even a copy of the policy text which wouldn't be a bad thing to just post here for all to see.

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    https://attachment.fbsbx.com/file_do...uhCgfaG4W7WT7b

    Nearly every item on pg 3 is against state law.
    Last edited by bigt8261; 02-07-2014 at 03:39 PM.

  12. #12
    Regular Member MI_XD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigt8261 View Post
    https://attachment.fbsbx.com/file_do...uhCgfaG4W7WT7b

    Nearly every item on pg 3 is against state law.
    That link doesn't work for me.

    MI_XD

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by MI_XD View Post
    That link doesn't work for me.

    MI_XD
    This time it's a problem with Facebook. The link worked when I posted it. I would upload the file, but it's too big.

    If you use Facebook, you can go here and download it yourself. https://www.facebook.com/groups/Mich.../?stream_ref=2

  14. #14
    Regular Member griffin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MI_XD View Post
    That link doesn't work for me.

    MI_XD
    Just delete that junk on the end.

    https://attachment.fbsbx.com/file_do...63482380418980

    also http or https (secure) works.
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    Regular Member MI_XD's Avatar
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    OK, that link got it. Thanks.

    From the flow chart... How can someone from the school request that you show them your CPL? That is something that is only required to show a LEO when they arrive/talk with you?
    Most everything they have in that chart would be "restricting the transporting or carrying" as put out in 1102.

    MI_XD

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    A LEO would first need to suspect you of committing a crime before he can demand to see your CPL. At that point, an awkward situation might ensue when you tell him that you can't show him something you are not required to have on your person.

  17. #17
    Regular Member FreeInAZ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigt8261 View Post
    A LEO would first need to suspect you of committing a crime before he can demand to see your CPL. At that point, an awkward situation might ensue when you tell him that you can't show him something you are not required to have on your person.
    After reading the document - I can say with certainty, if there was a organized effort to conduct (before school) demonstrations of lawful OC done repeatedly. The schools would have no choice but to repeal this STUPID policy or face HUGE financial hardships do to loss of "attendance based" funding. On another note - most school functions are at best attended by auxiliary police officer(s). In most cases they have no more arrest powers than a citizen as they are NOT duly qualified/accredited. This means that if 50 OCers showed up for a baseball/basketball/ football/ etc... game before most others... the school would have to call for multiple officers...doing so could result in delays, or even cancellations of games. In most rural areas...this means 15 to 30+ minute response times and a call for mutual assistance from neighboring LE agencies.... over time and repeated wastes of manpower aka MONEY, I see local LE putting far less effort into sending a "surge" of PEACE officers to schools for lawful activities.

    If anyone in MI was able to organize such a effort, I'm pretty sure they would be successful.
    Last edited by FreeInAZ; 02-08-2014 at 11:18 AM.
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  18. #18
    Regular Member Bikenut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FreeInAZ View Post
    After reading the document - I can say with certainty, if there was a organized effort to conduct (before school) demonstrations of lawful OC done repeatedly. The schools would have no choice but to repeal this STUPID policy or face HUGE financial hardships do to loss of "attendance based" funding. On another note - most school functions are at best attended by auxiliary police officer(s). In most cases they have no more arrest powers than a citizen as they are NOT duly qualified/accredited. This means that if 50 OCers showed up for a baseball/basketball/ football/ etc... game before most others... the school would have to call for multiple officers...doing so could result in delays, or even cancellations of games. In most rural areas...this means 15 to 30+ minute response times and a call for mutual assistance from neighboring LE agencies.... over time and repeated wastes of manpower aka MONEY, I see local LE putting far less effort into sending a "surge" of PEACE officers to schools for lawful activities.

    If anyone in MI was able to organize such a effort, I'm pretty sure they would be successful.
    I think, my opinion, that having OC'ers get between the parents and a baseball, basketball, football game would be very unwise. Many folks have more of themselves invested in sports than they have in anything else which is apparent by the behavior of fans everywhere.

    Holding schools accountable is one thing... getting in the way of a "game" for some fans is about as heinous an act as getting between them and a cold beer.
    Gun control isn't about the gun at all.... for those who want gun control it is all about their own fragile egos, their own lack of self esteem, their own inner fears, and most importantly... their own desire to dominate others. And an openly carried gun is a slap in the face to all of those things.

  19. #19
    Regular Member FreeInAZ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bikenut View Post
    I think, my opinion, that having OC'ers get between the parents and a baseball, basketball, football game would be very unwise. Many folks have more of themselves invested in sports than they have in anything else which is apparent by the behavior of fans everywhere.

    Holding schools accountable is one thing... getting in the way of a "game" for some fans is about as heinous an act as getting between them and a cold beer.
    I agree to some extent my friend. I was simply speaking to points in their memo. However if done correctly in stages, if the gloves needed to come off.. its an option. As stated before, use the media to give notice and make the schools explain why their bad policy is causing issues
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    "You must be the change you wish to see in the world" by Mahatma Gandhi

    “Your beliefs become your thoughts. Your thoughts become your words. Your words become your actions. Your actions become your habits. Your habits become your values. Your values become your destiny.” by Mahatma Gandhi

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