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Fuller Malarkey

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SNIPPED

We were talking about somehow showing ID increasing your chances of getting arrested due to misidentification. He was asserting thats likely. I was saying no.

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Actually, "we" weren't. You cherry picked another post, seized upon a reason given by one poster as to why HE didn't want to submit to arbitrary demands for ID to derail yet another thread.

I think most of "us" see the video as a typical violation of a citizen's rights on a number of fronts.

The cop was acting the thug, threatening to ruin this guy by imprisoning him, creating a possible financial and legal nightmare IF he didn't roll over and forfeit his rights. Let's not overlook the obvious, while you distract with non sequiturs, m'k? Few of "us" see any reason to volunteer information to the building of a prosecution against ourselves.
 

Primus

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Are you Timothy Sloat?

If so, then your views won't be welcomed here either.

If somebody is not breaking any laws, he or she should not be required to ID themselves.


There is a James Isaac who lives in Kentucky who is only three years younger than I. He may or may not have a felony, I do not. I do not want a mix up like that.

If I was to show my ID, I would have to spend enough time in jail to get this straightened up, then I may have to wait to retrieve my firearm.

^ This is exactly why you don't want to show ID unless you are required to, especially if you are doing something that could be illegal if you were a different person.

How this can be any clearer?

"IF I WAS TO SHOW MY ID I WOUKD HAVE TO SPEND ENOUGH TIME IN JAIL......."

"This is exactly why you don't want to show your ID unless you have to...."



You guys are kidding right? He clearly states that SHOWING an ID will get him locked up for mistaken identity?

That makes sense to anyone else?

He never said a word about not showing because you sot have to or who the burden of prove is on or anything else. He was clear..... show ID equals arrest. That's absurd.

I even agreed that he shouldnt HAVE to show ID. I clearly said the burden is on THEM to prove he's bad not him to PROVE he's innocent.

How is that a MA only thing?

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OC for ME

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Personally, I'll risk the ride if the cop is not on very firm legal ground. He must articulate exactly his reason for approaching me because I believe that there is no detainment in Missouri. "The officer must inform the defendant by what authority he acts, and must also show the warrant if required." Submitting to his authority is a arrest. This "consensual contact" nonsense permits LE to get away with a great many little rights violations without being held to account. This, and folks tend to not want to pursue a redress of wrongs because they know that the deck is stacked against them.

I will only provide ID if the cop can articulate his authority right there on the side of the road. He had better be dead on certain that he has it right or else there will be a accounting due. The arrest "definition" is not long, nor is it littered with political-legal-mumbo-jumbo. A citizen submits to the cops authority (you are not free to go) he is arrested under the statute. The 5A should be invoked immediately. Now, the question is, does the cop know this? Well, I don't care, because I tell him that I am arrested as a result of he detaining me and then I invoke my 5A right.

I am not here to make their job easier. A good cop knows this, and knows the very few laws in Missouri that are easy to understand and have the greatest opportunity for misuse and abuse. OC in Missouri is not unlawful. Some towns can ban OC. Some towns ban OC w/o a "permit." Very easy to know, yet cops continue to "not know" or misunderstand the law. Arrest is clearly defined. Claiming ignorance because some ready reference guide is not quite up to snuff is nothing but a cover for thug cops.
 

OC for ME

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<snip>

How is that a MA only thing?

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Look, I am trying to be reasonable with you yet my efforts appear to be in vain. If a cop has a description and no name, then a ID check is meaningless. If a cop has a name and the ID check shows the same name then a picture is required. No photo of the BG and again, the ID check is meaningless. Cops must have a name and a photo or else a ID check could, however unlikely it may be, result in a cop arresting the wrong guy.

Cops are pretty good about knowing who they are after and technology has greatly reduced the occurrences of arresting the wrong guy, but it does happen and will happen. Until the citizen knows that the cop is on very firm legal ground, turning over your papers is a bad idea. Citizens must hold a cops feet to the fire right there on the side of the road. Force the cop to justify is acts, articulate his authority.

Do cops state why they are arresting you, while slapping on the cuffs, like they do on TV anymore?
 

WalkingWolf

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North Carolina
It is well known that bad guys carry scanners. Besides the rights violation submitting personal information over the police radio provides criminals with personal information they may use to commit a REAL crime.

When the deputy attempted to get my information weeks ago I refused. Had I submitted a burglar listening on a radio would have a good idea that 1) I have a heart condition. 2)That I am away from home daily for walks, in which I cannot return home quickly. 3) That I probably store guns in the home. 4) My address.

Only a idiot thinks it is a good thing to broadcast personal information of net of criminals.
 

Primus

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Look, I am trying to be reasonable with you yet my efforts appear to be in vain. If a cop has a description and no name, then a ID check is meaningless. If a cop has a name and the ID check shows the same name then a picture is required. No photo of the BG and again, the ID check is meaningless. Cops must have a name and a photo or else a ID check could, however unlikely it may be, result in a cop arresting the wrong guy.

Cops are pretty good about knowing who they are after and technology has greatly reduced the occurrences of arresting the wrong guy, but it does happen and will happen. Until the citizen knows that the cop is on very firm legal ground, turning over your papers is a bad idea. Citizens must hold a cops feet to the fire right there on the side of the road. Force the cop to justify is acts, articulate his authority.

Do cops state why they are arresting you, while slapping on the cuffs, like they do on TV anymore?

Oc I understand your being reasonable and I appreciate it.

Again I addressed the photo is portion. I stated that said I'd should have a photo. I even referenced MA LTCs.

He was clear that he said showing a I'd will get you locked up for misidentification. That's absurd.

Your rationally talking about something different. I agree with you. Not him.

If they are looking for Joe Snuffy dob 010170 and you are Joe Snuffy 071080 and you guys look the same (height weight complexion) you bet your a** a clear photo ID with YOUR name and DOB and hopefully an ID number they can check to make sure its valid/active will save you.

IF they still arrest you after you have shown that ID then they are wrong false arrest take them to court get paid and fix them.

Again..... doesn't make sense to say showing an ID will create MISidentification...

And one more finally time.... I'm not saying he SHOULD or MUST show ID. Just disputing IF he does then he will get arrested.




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WalkingWolf

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North Carolina
http://www.kctv5.com/story/23576193/kck-womans-mistaken-identity-leads-to-repeated-arrests

KCK woman's mistaken identity leads to repeated arrests

http://www.cnn.com/2010/CRIME/02/15/colorado.mistaken.identity.arrest/

Officer, you've got the wrong person

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/16/us/lawsuit-in-denver-over-hundreds-of-mistaken-arrests.html

Mistaken Identity Cases at Heart of Denver Lawsuit Over Wrongful Arrests

http://www.wbaltv.com/news/maryland...er/-/10131532/14510502/-/jy1816z/-/index.html

Student misses graduation after police mistakenly arrest her
 
Last edited:

Fuller Malarkey

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Oc I understand your being reasonable and I appreciate it.

Again I addressed the photo is portion. I stated that said I'd should have a photo. I even referenced MA LTCs.

He was clear that he said showing a I'd will get you locked up for misidentification. That's absurd.

Your rationally talking about something different. I agree with you. Not him.

If they are looking for Joe Snuffy dob 010170 and you are Joe Snuffy 071080 and you guys look the same (height weight complexion) you bet your a** a clear photo ID with YOUR name and DOB and hopefully an ID number they can check to make sure its valid/active will save you.

IF they still arrest you after you have shown that ID then they are wrong false arrest take them to court get paid and fix them.

Again..... doesn't make sense to say showing an ID will create MISidentification...

And one more finally time.... I'm not saying he SHOULD or MUST show ID. Just disputing IF he does then he will get arrested.




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Lame and weak.

http://www.denverpost.com/ci_19697991

Wrongfully jailed: Records detail more than 500 mistaken-identity arrests in Denver in seven years


http://www.denverpost.com/ci_19697991

"More than 500 people were wrongly imprisoned in Denver's jails over seven years, with some spending weeks incarcerated or pleading guilty to crimes they did not commit before authorities realized they nabbed the wrong person, a federal court filing shows."


Still want to go with the "nothing could go wrong" with forfeiting your rights, Primus?

Civil-rights lawyers suing the city and county of Denver assert the documented mistaken-identity arrests "are the tip of the iceberg" and are an undercount of the true magnitude of the problem.

In one case a black man spent nine days in jail after he was arrested on a warrant for a white man wanted on a sex-crimes arrest warrant.

How does this apply to a Kentucky thread?

"The city further maintained that law enforcement agencies throughout the nation grapple with the issue of mistaken-identity arrests and have failed to come up with a solution."

Maybe the city's contention that "LEA throughout the nation", like federal supreme court rulings, don't apply to Massachusetts.

Besides. Massachusetts police have their own embarrassments to defend and live with, without extending their contempt for rights to other states.

Henry Louis Gates arrest controversy

http://www.boston.com/news/local/massachusetts/specials/072409_henry_louis_gates_arrest/
 

OC for ME

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The first line of defense against a wrongful arrest (mistaken identity) is the potential arresting cop. Sadly cops do not investigate, they follow orders. Some of the processes used to issue a warrant are well known by LE, used extensively to their advantage, yet the beat cop, knowing this does not question the warrant, every warrant.

Especially considering that wrongful arrests are very frequent it seems. The beat cop is placed in a no-win situation and yet they do nothing to change the system that places them in legal peril.
 

Fuller Malarkey

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The first line of defense against a wrongful arrest (mistaken identity) is the potential arresting cop. Sadly cops do not investigate, they follow orders. Some of the processes used to issue a warrant are well known by LE, used extensively to their advantage, yet the beat cop, knowing this does not question the warrant, every warrant.

Especially considering that wrongful arrests are very frequent it seems. The beat cop is placed in a no-win situation and yet they do nothing to change the system that places them in legal peril.

Valid point. However, I do wonder if it isn't a bit like feeling sorry for an electrician that gets zapped while working with wires, because he didn't understand that electric current flows through them.

Or the gunsmith that looks down the barrel and pulls the trigger to see if the firearm is loaded.

All three have some responsibility to understand the medium they are working with.
 

papa bear

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mayberry, nc
personally i would not want to give an employee of mine anything he has not earned or deserve, just because he is wanting to be an arse, and wanting to push his weight around

people it is your right not to give your papers to anyone. exercise your rights or lose them
 

09jisaac

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Louisa, Kentucky
Yea, Primus I meant to show that it was POSSIBLE to be arrested for mistaken identity. I did not mean to say that it would happen.

But I still think that you missed the point.

They are not looking for James Isaac, they checking to see if I am a felon or not.

They ask for ID and I show it to them.

"Dispatch, I need you to run a check on James Isaac."

"James Isaac served two years for assault in the third degree."

Now, even though it shouldn't be, the burden of proof lies with ME. I would be detained until they get a good picture of him. Most likely brought in to the station.


(Also, I don't know if the OTHER James Isaac has been in any legal trouble. I am just saying that it COULD happen.)
 

Primus

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Yea, Primus I meant to show that it was POSSIBLE to be arrested for mistaken identity. I did not mean to say that it would happen.

But I still think that you missed the point.

They are not looking for James Isaac, they checking to see if I am a felon or not.

They ask for ID and I show it to them.

"Dispatch, I need you to run a check on James Isaac."

"James Isaac served two years for assault in the third degree."

Now, even though it shouldn't be, the burden of proof lies with ME. I would be detained until they get a good picture of him. Most likely brought in to the station.


(Also, I don't know if the OTHER James Isaac has been in any legal trouble. I am just saying that it COULD happen.)

Here my issue though. It doesn't go "control I have a James Issac" "control to 12 yea james issac is a bad guy get him" they need dob, address, ID number, SSN, etc to verify your one and the same.

If the cop locks you up JUST because you have the same name he's an idiot. That's policing 101.....

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Fuller Malarkey

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Yea, Primus I meant to show that it was POSSIBLE to be arrested for mistaken identity. I did not mean to say that it would happen.

But I still think that you missed the point.

They are not looking for James Isaac, they checking to see if I am a felon or not.

They ask for ID and I show it to them.

"Dispatch, I need you to run a check on James Isaac."

"James Isaac served two years for assault in the third degree."

Now, even though it shouldn't be, the burden of proof lies with ME. I would be detained until they get a good picture of him. Most likely brought in to the station.


(Also, I don't know if the OTHER James Isaac has been in any legal trouble. I am just saying that it COULD happen.)

Your point was made. Primus has a dishonest habit of cherry picking posts until he can seize upon something he can run with, derailing the thread. This time, his lack of ethics involved you.
 

Fuller Malarkey

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Here my issue though. It doesn't go "control I have a James Issac" "control to 12 yea james issac is a bad guy get him" they need dob, address, ID number, SSN, etc to verify your one and the same.

If the cop locks you up JUST because you have the same name he's an idiot. That's policing 101.....

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Ya, well, your lame story doesn't do much to dispel concerns of a possible mistaken identity, or the seemingly high number of "idiots" we are faced with, based on news reports and lawsuits, and your own admission. :lol:
 

Primus

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Ya, well, your lame story doesn't do much to dispel concerns of a possible mistaken identity, or the seemingly high number of "idiots" we are faced with, based on news reports and lawsuits, and your own admission. :lol:

:)

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OC for ME

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Here my issue though. It doesn't go "control I have a James Issac" "control to 12 yea james issac is a bad guy get him" they need dob, address, ID number, SSN, etc to verify your one and the same.

If the cop locks you up JUST because you have the same name he's an idiot. That's policing 101.....

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It is very likely that more information is given to "dispatch" given that the cop holds a ID card. But that does not mean that dispatch will have more than a name and criminal history. Incorrect data in databases accounts for percentage of "glitches" that snare a innocent citizen. The cop is not at fault, he only knows what dispatch, unquestioned truth, tells him. yet, the now falsely ID'd and now arrested citizen must fight tooth and nail for his liberty.

Your often times singular focus on the minutia of a cop's job can buries your valid point(s) in minutia and thus others do not understand or appreciate your valid points. LE clearly finds it unacceptable, these mistaken identity "cases." They clearly are having difficulty in finding a solution that meets their needs and respect liberty and a citizen;s rights.

Beyond bar coding every citizens, cops can arrest the innocent as a result of mistaken identity, or, stop hassling citizens unless there is clear and unquestioned evidence that the citizen in front of them has committed a crime. In other words, if a possible BG keeps his freedom this day, so be it, there is always tomorrow.

I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than those attending too small a degree of it. - Thomas Jefferson, Letter to Archibald Stuart, December 23, 1791
I suspect that career cops disagree with this position, as I suspect that you also disagree with this position.
 

Running Wolf

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Playing devil's advocate here:

So our current identification system obviously has flaws. Picture IDs reduce the amount of mistaken and stolen identities, and are available now due to technological advances. The next logical step is using some kind of biometric ID like DNA, fingerprint, iris recognition, etc. Our current technology allows for mobile fingerprint or iris recognition devices, and essentially instantaneous communications for identification purposes.

I'm curious what the folks here at OCDO have to say about using newer technology for IDs. I'm not trying to be confrontational here, I'm honestly seeking input.
 

OC for ME

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Playing devil's advocate here:

So our current identification system obviously has flaws. Picture IDs reduce the amount of mistaken and stolen identities, and are available now due to technological advances. The next logical step is using some kind of biometric ID like DNA, fingerprint, iris recognition, etc. Our current technology allows for mobile fingerprint or iris recognition devices, and essentially instantaneous communications for identification purposes.

I'm curious what the folks here at OCDO have to say about using newer technology for IDs. I'm not trying to be confrontational here, I'm honestly seeking input.
A photo, DOB, and address is as far as I desire to go.Biometric data is far beyond what is required ti ID a citizen. Cops need to work far more diligently than they do now to mitigate they arresting the wrong citizen. When in doubt, do not arrest, investigate and come back tomorrow.
 

Primus

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A photo, DOB, and address is as far as I desire to go.Biometric data is far beyond what is required ti ID a citizen. Cops need to work far more diligently than they do now to mitigate they arresting the wrong citizen. When in doubt, do not arrest, investigate and come back tomorrow.

+1 I agree

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