Got kicked out of a thrift store....

FogeyLV · Feb 12, 2014

MAC702 said:
And by the Mormon Church's choice, they are making it an actual prosecutable crime against the state of Utah to be caught with a gun in their church in that state. That's a pretty high-handed "position" to have.

The position itself is flawed. God has no need of state laws to protect Him. And God makes use of armed followers to protect each other. No church is immune from crazy people coming inside, ignoring a sign or a posting on a state website.

I have no idea why the Church signed up for that, so I can't speak to that.

However, I can say that when I was younger, in the Boy Scouts, we had meetings in the meetinghouse. At one time, we went through the NRA firearms safety course. When it came time to handle and use actual guns, the meetings were moved to the home of one of the members.

MAC702 · Feb 12, 2014

FogeyLV said:
... their position is "No weapons in a house of God." They include the Desert Industries thrift stores under that umbrella, as the store is part of their employment program.

As for including their thrift stores under the "house of God" umbrella, this is against Bible precedents. The Israelites did not disarm when in the course of their daily activities.

Indeed, I can find no mention of a "weapons storage" area outside the walls of the temple or the synagogues, either.

But I've been remiss in welcoming you to OCDO! Sorry about that. Please don't mistake my terse replies in debate to be rudeness. I appreciate your viewpoints.

The Big Guy · Feb 12, 2014

MAC702 said:
As for including their thrift stores under the "house of God" umbrella, this is against Bible precedents. The Israelites did not disarm when in the course of their daily activities.

Indeed, I can find no mention of a "weapons storage" area outside the walls of the temple or the synagogues, either.

But I've been remiss in welcoming you to OCDO! Sorry about that. Please don't mistake my terse replies in debate to be rudeness. I appreciate your viewpoints.

"and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one." Luke 22:36

This makes it sound like Jesus wasn't against self defense.

TBG

Rusty Young Man · Feb 12, 2014

The Big Guy said:
"and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one." Luke 22:36

This makes it sound like Jesus wasn't against self defense.

TBG

I was referred to this little gem some time back:

Alma 43: 45-49 said:
*45*Nevertheless, the Nephites were inspired by a better cause, for they were not fighting for monarchy nor power but they were fighting for their homes and their liberties, their wives and their children, and their all, yea, for their rites of worship and their church.

*46*And they were doing that which they felt was the duty which they owed to their God; for the Lord had said unto them, and also unto their fathers, that: Inasmuch as ye are not guilty of the first offense, neither the second, ye shall not suffer yourselves to be slain by the hands of your enemies.

*47*And again, the Lord has said that: Ye shall defend your families even unto bloodshed. Therefore for this cause were the Nephites contending with the Lamanites, to defend themselves, and their families, and their lands, their country, and their rights, and their religion.

*48*And it came to pass that when the men of Moroni saw the fierceness and the anger of the Lamanites, they were about to shrink and flee from them. And Moroni, perceiving their intent, sent forth and inspired their hearts with these thoughts—yea, the thoughts of their lands, their liberty, yea, their freedom from bondage.

*49*And it came to pass that they turned upon the Lamanites, and they cried with one voice unto the Lord their God, for their liberty and their freedom from bondage.

Sounds like a REALLY explicit example of justification of force, even LETHAL force for self-defense, wouldn't you all agree?
It also sounds like they were told to fight for their Liberty...

Rusty Young Man · Feb 12, 2014

Context for that Alma verse

The passage itself comes from one of the books (Alma) in the Book of Mormon.
It is about the Nephite general Moroni leading the reluctant Nephite forces in battle against the Lamanites (kin of the Nephites, I believe, by ancestry), who threatened to destroy the Nephites.
The Nephites didn't want to kill and all, but had little recourse.

Earlier in the same chapter are a verse or two that seem to imply that just the ACT of wearing weapons and armor served as a DETERRENT against Lamanite attack.

NOTE: Any Mormons out there, please feel free to correct me if I have made any egregious errors in the analysis of this passage or its context. I insist, as I am genuinely interested in learning a morsel of both scripture and practice of various religions in the present day.

Also, I'd like to extend a hearty welcome to FogeyLV from sunny, dry Arizona. Welcome to OCDO, and I hope you decide to continue to add to the discussions we have on here (a plethora of topics). Sorry for not saying hello earlier.

FogeyLV · Feb 13, 2014

Thanks for the welcome!

And to be completely frank--I could be completely wrong. The only time I have ever heard the issue of guns at the meeting houses come up was when we were having the safety course. That's how it was explained to me then--in 1977--and it's never come up since.

But since then I have believed that if it was felt to be necessary, the Church would be prepared to have armed guards at the meeting houses--outside.

Vegassteve · Feb 13, 2014

FogeyLV said:
But since then I have believed that if it was felt to be necessary, the Church would be prepared to have armed guards at the meeting houses--outside.

And what good does that do? This false sense of safety because some rent a cops are standing outside?

MAC702 · Feb 14, 2014

Vegassteve said:
And what good does that do? This false sense of safety because some rent a cops are standing outside?

About as useful as the redshirts in my landing parties. You don't see me not carrying my own phaser, do you?

MAC702 · Feb 14, 2014

FogeyLV said:
...But since then I have believed that if it was felt to be necessary, the Church would be prepared to have armed guards at the meeting houses--outside.

Does God only allow Mormons to be attacked outside the US?

http://thisweekinmormons.com/2013/09/why-are-so-many-mormon-missionaries-dying/

DVC · Feb 15, 2014

The Church policy is simple.

They take no political stand on firearms or RKBA, as these are not spiritual issues.

They have determined that, for spiritual reasons, weapons should not be taken into Church buildings except for safety training in approved classes (such as Scouting), and discussions involving weapons are inappropriate outside of those classes. Exceptions are made for law enforcement personnel and special circumstances, but the Church leaders feel that the spirit of meetings is affected by awareness of weapons being present.

As a number of the General Authorities have been involved in shooting sports, this isn't a matter of being anti-gun.

MAC702 · Feb 15, 2014

DVC said:
The Church policy is simple.

They take no political stand on firearms or RKBA, as these are not spiritual issues.

They have determined that, for spiritual reasons, weapons should not be taken into Church buildings except for safety training in approved classes (such as Scouting), and discussions involving weapons are inappropriate outside of those classes. Exceptions are made for law enforcement personnel and special circumstances, but the Church leaders feel that the spirit of meetings is affected by awareness of weapons being present.

As a number of the General Authorities have been involved in shooting sports, this isn't a matter of being anti-gun.

If it were simply a spiritual issue, there would be no need for an exception for law enforcement.
If it were simply a spiritual issue, there would be no need to make possession in a church to be a crime against the state of Utah, as they have chosen to do.

Firearms Iinstuctor · Feb 15, 2014

DVC said:
The Church policy is simple.

They take no political stand on firearms or RKBA, as these are not spiritual issues.

They have determined that, for spiritual reasons, weapons should not be taken into Church buildings except for safety training in approved classes (such as Scouting), and discussions involving weapons are inappropriate outside of those classes. Exceptions are made for law enforcement personnel and special circumstances, but the Church leaders feel that the spirit of meetings is affected by awareness of weapons being present.

As a number of the General Authorities have been involved in shooting sports, this isn't a matter of being anti-gun.

It is very much a political stand.

Bernymac · Feb 15, 2014

DVC said:
The Church policy is simple.

They take no political stand on firearms or RKBA, as these are not spiritual issues.

They have determined that, for spiritual reasons, weapons should not be taken into Church buildings except for safety training in approved classes (such as Scouting), and discussions involving weapons are inappropriate outside of those classes. Exceptions are made for law enforcement personnel and special circumstances, but the Church leaders feel that the spirit of meetings is affected by awareness of weapons being present.

As a number of the General Authorities have been involved in shooting sports, this isn't a matter of being anti-gun.

Is the church afraid of offending law enforcement personnel? What makes law enforcement personnel more entitled? Why would church leaders feel more at ease with costumed beings with firearms vs ordinary folk that wish follow the supreme order of protecting one's life? There is a name for that kind of wish-washy you-can't-do-it-but-we-can-thing-a-ma-jig...it escapes me for the moment. There are plenty of anti-gun politicos who claim to support the shooting sports, so really, that is not a valid talking point.

Rhetorical, of course, as I am sure you do not speak for the church.

DVC · Feb 15, 2014

MAC702 said:
If it were simply a spiritual issue, there would be no need for an exception for law enforcement.
If it were simply a spiritual issue, there would be no need to make possession in a church to be a crime against the state of Utah, as they have chosen to do.

The exception for law enforcement recognizes the laws in Utah and other states which authorize cops to carry anywhere and anytime.

Other exceptions are routinely made for safety classes, Scouting events, etc.

The push to outlaw carry in Church buildings follows a number of incidents in which people have been less than stellar examples of gun ownership.

Feel free to write a letter to the Church outlining why you feel the policy to be more harm than good.

MAC702 · Feb 15, 2014

DVC said:
...Feel free to write a letter to the Church outlining why you feel the policy to be more harm than good.

I quite frankly don't care to. They can do what they want. But I'll call it like I see it, too.

For whatever reason (they and you think it is a good enough one), they are anti-carrying of firearms, officially, even in places that are not houses of worship, yet officially still allow cops to carry there, even in the places of worship.

Maybe they should just have more of those safety classes that they claim are okay exceptions, if the problem really is one of unsafe handling.

DVC · Feb 16, 2014

Stop putting words in my mouth. I have never even IMPLIED an opinion regarding the policy, I have merely tried to explain and illuminate it.

You should write a letter. Explain your point of view. The policy was changed once, it can be changed back if the leadership can be persuaded that it should be, or if the Lord tells them that it should be. Who knows, maybe one more well-reasoned letter is all that it will take.

skeith5 · Feb 17, 2014

I am Mormon and carry every time I go to church. I do wish they would change their stance though. There have been plenty of incidents involving bad guys with weapons in churches.

Sent from my SM-N900T using Tapatalk

Tolerance · Feb 17, 2014

So, the thrift store replied. Basically he same stance as the Mormon church.

Dear,

Thank you for your comment and for considering Deseret Industries as an “amazing thrift store”. We value our customers and strive to provide a great experience. On the subject of weapons in our stores, Deseret Industries has elected to exclude from its premises firearms or other weapons. We have given the managers of our stores the right to ask customer who are carrying a visible weapon to leave. These customers are always welcome to return to the store once the weapon is secured in a safe place. We value you as a customer and would hope you would reconsider coming back to our stores. Please feel free to contact the store manager if you would like to discuss this further.

Thanks, Deseret Industries

The comment of "exclude from its premises firearms or other weapons" makes me want to ask them why they sell knives, lol. I am not going to contact them again, no reason to.

Also, on the side discussion of firearms and Mormon churchs, I would tend to agree with the fact that is a political standpoint. If it was a religious one, any law that went against it (I.E. letting law enforcement in the church) would become an issue of their First Amendment right. So the fact that they haven't fought that makes it political.

Bernymac · Feb 17, 2014

Tolerance said:
So, the thrift store replied. Basically he same stance as the Mormon church.

Dear,

Thank you for your comment and for considering Deseret Industries as an “amazing thrift store”. We value our customers and strive to provide a great experience. On the subject of weapons in our stores, Deseret Industries has elected to exclude from its premises firearms or other weapons. We have given the managers of our stores the right to ask customer who are carrying a visible weapon to leave. These customers are always welcome to return to the store once the weapon is secured in a safe place. We value you as a customer and would hope you would reconsider coming back to our stores. Please feel free to contact the store manager if you would like to discuss this further.

Thanks, Deseret Industries

The comment of "exclude from its premises firearms or other weapons" makes me want to ask them why they sell knives, lol. I am not going to contact them again, no reason to.

Also, on the side discussion of firearms and Mormon churchs, I would tend to agree with the fact that is a political standpoint. If it was a religious one, any law that went against it (I.E. letting law enforcement in the church) would become an issue of their First Amendment right. So the fact that they haven't fought that makes it political.

I find it funny that a few of its members try to defend the church's political stand as if they speak for the whole religion. As if the defense will make it okay to have such a policy in place. Can you imagine if we can use religion to impose restrictions on the RKBA???

We can pick the policy apart and discuss its utter ridiculousness, but I doubt anyone of us here is actually going to able to affect change when no one up there is actually listening.

MAC702 · Feb 17, 2014

DVC said:
Stop putting words in my mouth. I have never even IMPLIED an opinion regarding the policy, I have merely tried to explain and illuminate it. ...

You are right. Sorry about that.

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