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Thread: CHP cuffs firefighter trying to rescue victims of a crash on a busy highway

  1. #1
    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    CHP cuffs firefighter trying to rescue victims of a crash on a busy highway

    Firefighter Jacob Gregoire, 36, was cuffed and held in a California Highway patrol squad car for 30 minutes after he refused to move his firetruck

    Fire officials insist the 12 year veteran was following his training and parked the truck in a manner meant to shield all persons at the scene - including police - from busy traffic

    The incident comes after multiple battles between police and fire crews in southern California

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...y-highway.html

    http://www.utsandiego.com/news/2014/...?#article-copy
    He, the firefighter, was not arrested? maybe not in California, but in Missouri he would have been. The FF needs to sue that cop and his nitwit bosses. California needs to make "rescue" personnel on scene commanders, not cops. Cops are not trained to do a FF's job. When the FFs job is done, turn the scene over to the cops.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    He, the firefighter, was not arrested? maybe not in California, but in Missouri he would have been. The FF needs to sue that cop and his nitwit bosses. California needs to make "rescue" personnel on scene commanders, not cops. Cops are not trained to do a FF's job. When the FFs job is done, turn the scene over to the cops.
    Cuffed and stuffed sounds like arrest to me.
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

  3. #3
    Regular Member Fuller Malarkey's Avatar
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    Officials: Dispute between CHP officer, firefighter an 'isolated incident'

    http://www.cbs8.com/story/24637357/c...at-crash-scene

    Isolated incident 88,694.


    This will stimulate a rash on a party unable to respond.
    Liberty is so strongly a part of human nature that it can be treated as a no-lose argument position.
    ~Citizen

    From the cop’s perspective, the expression “law-abiding citizen” is a functional synonym for “Properly obedient slave".

    "People are not born being "anti-cop" and believing we live in a police state. That is a result of experience."

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    Not so isolated as this ONE incident, the article covers others

    Not so isolated as this ONE incident, the article covers three others
    This isn't the first time a firefighter has been detained. In 2010 a Montecito Battalion Chief in Santa Barbara County was handcuffed when he refused CHP orders to move a fire truck blocking lanes of traffic while responding to a crash.

    In 2003, a police officer arrested a firefighter in Missouri for a similar reason and he sued. A jury in federal civil court awarded the firefighter with more than $17,000.

    In Chula Vista, Hess says this issue between the Chula Vista Fire Department and CHP has come up before and officers have made threats but not arrests or handcuffing a firefighter until Tuesday night.
    Last edited by Nightmare; 02-06-2014 at 01:14 PM.
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    Regular Member Fuller Malarkey's Avatar
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    It can be confusing, trying to discuss the ethical and moral implications involved when two separate public service entities collide. What differentiates the two in practical terms?

    Firemen:

    Volunteer firemen save family from electrical short in home furnace

    http://www.nbcdfw.com/news/local/Fir...223915811.html

    Police:

    No Knock Warrant Results In Deputy Shot, Police Set House on Fire to Flush Suspect

    http://www.mercurynews.com/breaking-...g-standoff-man

    To recap:

    Fireman: Will risk life to save citizen from burning house.

    Police: Will burn house down with you in it, shoot you as you try to flee the flames.

    Fireman:

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Police:

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	police kick in the head.jpg 
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    Now the civics test:

    Which should be interfering with the other?
    Liberty is so strongly a part of human nature that it can be treated as a no-lose argument position.
    ~Citizen

    From the cop’s perspective, the expression “law-abiding citizen” is a functional synonym for “Properly obedient slave".

    "People are not born being "anti-cop" and believing we live in a police state. That is a result of experience."

  6. #6
    Regular Member Primus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fuller Malarkey View Post
    It can be confusing, trying to discuss the ethical and moral implications involved when two separate public service entities collide. What differentiates the two in practical terms?

    Firemen:

    Volunteer firemen save family from electrical short in home furnace

    http://www.nbcdfw.com/news/local/Fir...223915811.html

    Police:

    No Knock Warrant Results In Deputy Shot, Police Set House on Fire to Flush Suspect

    http://www.mercurynews.com/breaking-...g-standoff-man

    To recap:

    Fireman: Will risk life to save citizen from burning house.

    Police: Will burn house down with you in it, shoot you as you try to flee the flames.

    Fireman:

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	fireman.jpg 
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Size:	42.0 KB 
ID:	11238

    Police:

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	police kick in the head.jpg 
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ID:	11239



    Now the civics test:

    Which should be interfering with the other?
    Lol your finesse is great as always.

    Why are there firefighters?

    Police needs heroes too.

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    "The wicked flee when no man persueth: but the righteous are as bold as a lion" Proverbs 28:1

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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    Cuffed and stuffed sounds like arrest to me.
    Evidently so, if you are a unknowing citizen. However, i suspect that there is case law that has determined otherwise. Officer safety comes to mind. I have witnessed citizens in my little town restrained by cops and then released when the cops had completed their task, whatever it may have been. I have been searching Missouri case law and have not yet found a case where a citizen sued for being physically restrained and claiming that he was falsely arrested.

    Officer safety claims used to justify a physical restraint (cuffed) are the greatest threat to the safety of the citizen where no reasonable person would determine that the officer's safety was at risk. Point in fact, cuffing a FF for failure to comply with a cop's order, yet he was not arrested.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    [ ... ] Point in fact, cuffing a FF for failure to comply with a cop's order, yet he was not arrested.
    Somewhere here is a statement that the arrestee citizen's perception determines arrest, if he submits to the cop's authority then he is arrested. Also there is vast discussion that the perception of force majure accomplishes arrest; bigboy command voice, uniform, clown car, gun, tactical positioning yadda yadda yadda.
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fuller Malarkey View Post
    It can be confusing, trying to discuss the ethical and moral implications involved when two separate public service entities collide. What differentiates the two in practical terms?

    Firemen:

    Volunteer firemen save family from electrical short in home furnace

    http://www.nbcdfw.com/news/local/Fir...223915811.html

    Police:

    No Knock Warrant Results In Deputy Shot, Police Set House on Fire to Flush Suspect

    http://www.mercurynews.com/breaking-...g-standoff-man

    To recap:

    Fireman: Will risk life to save citizen from burning house.

    Police: Will burn house down with you in it, shoot you as you try to flee the flames.

    Fireman:

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	fireman.jpg 
Views:	204 
Size:	42.0 KB 
ID:	11238

    Police:

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	police kick in the head.jpg 
Views:	210 
Size:	9.3 KB 
ID:	11239



    Now the civics test:

    Which should be interfering with the other?
    As part of prepping ... one should have enough fire supression devices or a plan to stop them from burning one out ... I see this tactic as using chemical weapons ... they really want to start playing this game?

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    TWT says, "a cop arrested one of the fire department’s emergency responders"

    "A long-running dispute between San Diego firefighters and police came to an abrupt and alarming head this week, after a cop arrested one of the fire department’s emergency responders who was working a road rescue. The firefighter refused to move his truck, which was parked across lanes on the California highway."

    http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/...cue-over-park/

    video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qkFDN2Wf284 cuffing at 0:45
    Last edited by Nightmare; 02-06-2014 at 06:18 PM.
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    the police officer is guilty of violating CA pc 148(a)

    148. (a) (1) Every person who willfully resists, delays, or obstructs any public officer, peace officer, or an emergency medical technician, as defined in Division 2.5 (commencing with Section 1797) of the Health and Safety Code, in the discharge or attempt to discharge any duty of his or her office or employment, when no other punishment is prescribed, shall be punished by a fine not exceeding one thousand dollars ($1,000), or by imprisonment in a county jail not to exceed one year, or by both that fine and imprisonment.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    Somewhere here is a statement that the arrestee citizen's perception determines arrest, if he submits to the cop's authority then he is arrested. Also there is vast discussion that the perception of force majure accomplishes arrest; bigboy command voice, uniform, clown car, gun, tactical positioning yadda yadda yadda.
    Perception? No perception in Missouri: submitting to a cops authority is defined as a arrest in MO. I've cited the statute so many times.

    Me: Am I being detained?
    Cop: Yes.
    Me: I do not consent to any blah blah or blah blah, I also invoke my 5A.
    Cop: Why, you're not under arrest.
    Me: Yes I am. Look it up.

  13. #13
    Regular Member Primus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    Perception? No perception in Missouri: submitting to a cops authority is defined as a arrest in MO. I've cited the statute so many times.

    Me: Am I being detained?
    Cop: Yes.
    Me: I do not consent to any blah blah or blah blah, I also invoke my 5A.
    Cop: Why, you're not under arrest.
    Me: Yes I am. Look it up.
    So there is no detention?

    Let me ask this... any stop is an arrest do they need PC for every stop?

    Not saying I don't believe you, genuinely curious.

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    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Primus View Post
    So there is no detention?
    Let me ask this... any stop is an arrest do they need PC for every stop?
    Not saying I don't believe you, genuinely curious.
    Any arrest or any detention is a seizure within the meaning of the Fourth Amendment. The Courts have devised the "you're merely being detained, not arrested" ploy because they realize that there are way too many people who don't know they have the right to remain silent when questioned.

    Imagine what it would be like if the practice of remaining silent was near universal---
    An officer "detains" someone, merely to ask a few questions because he is reasonably suspicious that criminal activity is afoot. The person asserts his right to remain silent and to make no statements to the officer.

    Now what????
    Right then, right there, with the evidence at hand and no more, Officer Friendly must make a decision on if he has probable cause to make an arrest.

    The whole idea of "detainment" is predicated on the knowledge that most people will NOT assert their right to remain silent. There is either probable cause to arrest or the purpose of the detention is to find probable cause post hoc.

    TL;DR... If more people would learn to KYBMS then the whole idea of "detention" would be a fairly moot subject.
    Last edited by Fallschirmjäger; 02-07-2014 at 05:44 PM.

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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Primus View Post
    So there is no detention?

    Let me ask this... any stop is an arrest do they need PC for every stop?

    Not saying I don't believe you, genuinely curious.

    Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk
    I believe there is no detention in MO based only on the wording of the statute that defines a arrest in MO. I also have cited, many times, the statute that authorizes a cop to arrest even for a infraction (non crime) here in MO. This means a cop could arrest me if my plate lights were out.

    Essentially, as the law is written, RAS is all a cop needs to perform a arrest. Cuffing me "for my safety".....cough cough BS cough cough.....meets the requirements of the definition of a arrest.

    My stead fast contention is that when a citizen is cuffed he is arrested. I know of no cop that agrees with me. I then point them to the statute here in MO. I know of no cop that would arrest me for a blown plate light. Cops are regular folks with a good dose of common sense, and "get it" where stupid laws are concerned.

    However, I never get a response from any cop who is not a cop in MO regarding our statute because every state may be different. You are the first cop who has asked a serious question on this issue. +1 to you Sir.

    I am confident that a MO cop would protest my assertion if I were to be "detained" and understandably so. But, under the law he would be wrong in his understanding and there is not a darn thing I can do about it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fallschirmjäger View Post
    any arrest or any detention is a seizure within the meaning of the fourth amendment. The courts have devised the "you're merely being detained, not arrested" ploy because they realize that there are way too many people who don't know they have the right to remain silent when questioned.

    Imagine what it would be like if the practice of remaining silent was near universal---
    an officer "detains" someone, merely to ask a few questions because he is reasonably suspicious that criminal activity is afoot. The person asserts his right to remain silent and to make no statements to the officer.

    Now what????
    Right then, right there, with the evidence at hand and no more, officer friendly must make a decision on if he has probable cause to make an arrest.

    The whole idea of "detainment" is predicated on the knowledge that most people will not assert their right to remain silent. There is either probable cause to arrest or the purpose of the detention is to find probable cause post hoc.

    Tl;dr... If more people would learn to kybms then the whole idea of "detention" would be a fairly moot subject.
    qft

  17. #17
    Regular Member Primus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    I believe there is no detention in MO based only on the wording of the statute that defines a arrest in MO. I also have cited, many times, the statute that authorizes a cop to arrest even for a infraction (non crime) here in MO. This means a cop could arrest me if my plate lights were out.

    Essentially, as the law is written, RAS is all a cop needs to perform a arrest. Cuffing me "for my safety".....cough cough BS cough cough.....meets the requirements of the definition of a arrest.

    My stead fast contention is that when a citizen is cuffed he is arrested. I know of no cop that agrees with me. I then point them to the statute here in MO. I know of no cop that would arrest me for a blown plate light. Cops are regular folks with a good dose of common sense, and "get it" where stupid laws are concerned.

    However, I never get a response from any cop who is not a cop in MO regarding our statute because every state may be different. You are the first cop who has asked a serious question on this issue. +1 to you Sir.

    I am confident that a MO cop would protest my assertion if I were to be "detained" and understandably so. But, under the law he would be wrong in his understanding and there is not a darn thing I can do about it.
    Your first paragraph states you believe there is no detention according to the wording of statute. But then you third paragraph says you believe once you are cuffed for any reason you are arrested.

    Detained and cuffed are not the same. You can be detained without being cuffed bit can't be cuffed without being detained.

    Do you have a link to the relevant statute? I'm curious as to its wording. Is there case law or anything else they use as a basis for what constitutes levels of detention or what constitutes an arrest.

    Also do you have the relevant statute that authorizes arrest for anything? Our MGLs are set up where it'll tell you right in it or refer to another statute that gives you arrest powers for that specific chapter and section.

    I appreciate the +1. I am sincerely interested in other states laws and law in general. Actually planning on eventually getting the pesky JD. I also appreciate you taking the time and explaining what you have so far.

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    State Pioneer ConditionThree's Avatar
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    Still looking for relevance of story to open carry of a firearm.

    If you want to kvetch about police abuse of power, I am sure you can find them if you take the time to Google them.
    New to OPEN CARRY in California? Click and read this first...

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    Arrest. 544.180. An arrest is made by an actual restraint of the person of the defendant, or by his submission to the custody of the officer, under authority of a warrant or otherwise. The officer must inform the defendant by what authority he acts, and must also show the warrant if required.
    Clearly, a physical restraint is a arrest. Me submitting to the cop's authority (detention?) is a arrest. Unambiguous.

    Powers of arrest, arrest without warrant on suspicion persons violating any law of state including infractions, misdemeanors and ordinances, exception--power of municipal officer in unincorporated area.

    544.216. Any sheriff or deputy sheriff, any member of the Missouri state highway patrol, and any county or municipal law enforcement officer in this state, except those officers of a political subdivision or municipality having a population of less than two thousand persons or which does not have at least four full-time nonelected peace officers unless such subdivision or municipality has elected to come under and is operating pursuant to the provisions of sections 590.100 to 590.150, may arrest on view, and without a warrant, any person the officer sees violating or who such officer has reasonable grounds to believe has violated any law of this state, including a misdemeanor or infraction, or has violated any ordinance over which such officer has jurisdiction. Peace officers of a municipality shall have arrest powers, as described in this section, upon lands which are leased or owned by the municipality in an unincorporated area. Ordinances enacted by a municipality, owning or leasing lands outside its boundaries, may be enforced by peace officers of the municipality upon such owned or leased lands. The power of arrest authorized by this section is in addition to all other powers conferred upon law enforcement officers, and shall not be construed so as to limit or restrict any other power of a law enforcement officer.
    Reasonable grounds is RAS in my view.

    What MA defines as a arrest may be different and it seems, based on the context of your post, that it is different. In MO I am arrested when I am detained, as my little story clearly illustrates. Further more, if I refuse to submit to the authority of the cop I am confident that violent physical force will be used to compel my submission.

  20. #20
    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Primus View Post
    So there is no detention?

    Let me ask this... any stop is an arrest do they need PC for every stop?

    Not saying I don't believe you, genuinely curious.

    Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk
    Yes! That is one reason why Terry vs. Ohio was a bad decision it invented RAS.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Primus View Post
    <snip. Detained and cuffed are not the same. You can be detained without being cuffed bit can't be cuffed without being detained. <snip>
    Your experiences, and MA laws, do not apply in MO. I've provided the statutes. I will longer entertain your refusal to accept that a detainment, cuffed or not, is a arrest in MO. Get cuffed, you are arrested, everybody knows this no matter where you live.

  22. #22
    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    Your experiences, and MA laws, do not apply in MO. I've provided the statutes. I will longer entertain your refusal to accept that a detainment, cuffed or not, is a arrest in MO. Get cuffed, you are arrested, everybody knows this no matter where you live.

    +1 Only statist cops would think a person not free to go anywhere isn't "arrested", when the state does does it.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

  23. #23
    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    That...and it Doesn't Matter if it's an "arrest" or not. It is a seizure, and an illegal seizure is actionable in civil court.

  24. #24
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    Getting from a civil action to charging the offending cop with a crime related to the unlawful restraint of a citizen is my goal.

  25. #25
    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    Getting from a civil action to charging the offending cop with a crime related to the unlawful restraint of a citizen is my goal.
    A laudable goal, I'm on board!
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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