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Thread: OC Question

  1. #1
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    OC Question

    I've lurked and looked a lot so if this question has been answered previously please forgive me....

    My question concerns weapon security when OCing. How does one prevent someone that you may not see behind you (in a crowd or line or such) from snatching the gun from your holster before you can stop them? Do you all use a holster with some sort of strap over the weapon?

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    Holsters have different retention levels. You'll see Lvl I, II, III and even IV. The level of the holster relates to how many actions a user must make to release the gun from the holster. Friction is Lvl 1, Friction + Strap is Lvl 2. Friction + Strap + Lever or button would be lvl 3, and so on. Most people use at least a Lvl 2 retention holster, so someone just grabbing and pulling isn't going to release the gun. Most Law Enforcement use a Lvl III holster.

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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    I have trained myself to keep my weapon side elbow in relatively constant contact with my weapon.

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    Campaign Veteran MSG Laigaie's Avatar
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    Let me be the first to Welcome you to OCDO! Glad to see you are not lurking anymore, we need fresh thought or we are not being challenged.

    You do not say what kind of weapon you carry or any level of experience so specific answers are difficult.
    Do you carry for work?...do you carry everyday?....Big gun?..Little gun?
    I carry every day. I carry a smallish semi auto pistol(CZ82) in a fobus paddle holster. The key here will be retention. Put your choice of weapon(unloaded) in your choice of holster and have a friend try to pull it out from different angles. This will give you confidence in your equipment and make us all safer.

    I think this thread is in the wrong location ( see holsters and accssy) http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/fo...nd-Accessories
    and a mod will move it soon. Please do not be surprised.
    Last edited by MSG Laigaie; 02-06-2014 at 04:39 PM. Reason: spelig
    "Firearms stand next in importance to the Constitution itself. They are the people's liberty teeth (and) keystone... the rifle and the pistol are equally indispensable... more than 99% of them by their silence indicate that they are in safe and sane hands. The very atmosphere of firearms everywhere restrains evil interference .When firearms go, all goes, we need them every hour." -- George Washington

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    Quote Originally Posted by MSG Laigaie View Post
    Let me be the first to Welcome you to OCDO! Glad to see you are not lurking anymore, we need fresh thought or we are not being challenged.

    You do not say what kind of weapon you carry or any level of experience so specific answers are difficult.
    Do you carry for work?...do you carry everyday?....Big gun?..Little gun?
    I carry every day. I carry a smallish semi auto pistol(CZ82) in a fobus paddle holster. The key here will be retention. Put your choice of weapon(unloaded) in your choice of holster and have a friend try to pull it out from different angles. This will give you confidence in your equipment and make us all safer.

    I think this thread is in the wrong location ( see holsters and accssy) http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/fo...nd-Accessories
    and a mod will move it soon. Please do not be surprised.
    Thanks. My question was not intended to be holster or weapon specific (hence my lack of details on those points) but more of a general question about retention when OCing. My personal concern was that, not being as spry or quick as I once was, someone might possibly grab the thing from behind before I could react to prevent it. I haven't seen this particular question posted here previously although, as I indicated, I knew I might have missed it.

    The moderators are free to move or delete my post as they see fit, of course. I would not take it personally but thank you again for the warning.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    I have trained myself to keep my weapon side elbow in relatively constant contact with my weapon.
    Thanks. I'm wondering if I would realize what was happening quickly enough to be able to clamp down and retain the gun... Perhaps some testing would be a good idea as MSG Laigaie suggested...

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    The clear statement has not been made; many retention holsters will only release to a draw pull from just the proper angle.

    My OC holster is called "level two" for its adjustable friction release and trigger guard latch.
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    The clear statement has not been made; many retention holsters will only release to a draw pull from just the proper angle.

    My OC holster is called "level two" for its adjustable friction release and trigger guard latch.
    Thanks.

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    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    Holster Retention Levels Explained

    And just the video by itself...

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Did move the thread, but to "Open Carry Questions" as that is what this thread is.

    We tend to make much of gun retention.....because we are responsible people and an attempted gun snatch just might occur some day. Though there have been a few reports over the years, virtually none have stood the test of careful examination. Putting a hypothetical ratio/percentage to it, I'd say the odds are about .00001% - more likely that almost any other catastrophe will occasion you.

    Even with those favorable figures, we almost inclusively not only recommend retention holsters but retention training. One is good, both are better.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    If gun snatch is a concern besides training, and retention holster you can wear at 10 or 2 o'clock on your belt. I carry my crossdraw BUG at 10 , my primary at 3.
    It is well that war is so terrible – otherwise we would grow too fond of it.
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    When I was working I went to the higher level holsters more for the reason that during hard physical actively such as running, wrestling with a suspect one was more likely to have ones side arm come out and fall to the ground with level one or level twos then to have it grabbed.

    I was running after a suspect one night and my elbow hit the thumb break and my side arm came out of it holster. I was lucky that I felt it come out and was able to catch it. After that chase I went to higher retention holsters.
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    I carry a Level One (that I made myself; super proud if you can't tell) with my elbow on it, but I also like having my holster canted forward about 10 degrees.

    Easier for me to feel the contact with my elbow and a MUCH weaker wrist position for someone going for a grab from behind.

    Also more comfortable for me while sitting/driving.
    I carry everywhere because crime doesn't make appointments.

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    Regular Member badkarma's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fallschirmjäger View Post
    Holster Retention Levels Explained

    And just the video by itself...
    This video makes me reconsider my level of retention.
    WA Guns
    "There is no such thing as a free lunch, but there is always free cheese in a mousetrap."

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    Activist Member golddigger14s's Avatar
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    I use a Serpa Level II CQC paddle holster, plus for added safety I add a large dose of situational awareness. Even without a gun, people need to be more aware of their surroundings. Too many times people have headphones on, and totally engrossed in their electronic gizmo.
    "The beauty of the Second Amenment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it." Thomas Jefferson
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    Thanks for all of the responses. Much appreciated.

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    Regular Member Difdi's Avatar
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    With a good retention holster, it's usually easier for a would-be gun grabber to cut your belt than to remove the gun from the holster without your permission.

  18. #18
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    I agree with NavyLCDR. Just carry and carry safely.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Successful LEO gun grabs that have been recorded usually show the LEO is overpowered before the grab. Most thugs are well aware of retention and all the buttons. I see no reason that they would not use the same on a LAC, IF and that is a big IF, they decide to snatch a gun. Most times that a LEO gun is snatched the snatcher is avoiding a arrest, something that LAC's should not be doing.
    It is well that war is so terrible – otherwise we would grow too fond of it.
    Robert E. Lee
    The patriot volunteer, fighting for country and his rights, makes the most reliable soldier on earth.
    Thomas Jonathan "Stonewall" Jackson
    What separates the winners from the losers is how a person reacts to each new twist of fate.
    President Donald Trump

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    Campaign Veteran MSG Laigaie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    Successful LEO gun grabs that have been recorded usually show the LEO is overpowered before the grab............
    I had to do this, he does appear to be overpowered.
    Last edited by MSG Laigaie; 02-09-2014 at 01:25 PM.
    "Firearms stand next in importance to the Constitution itself. They are the people's liberty teeth (and) keystone... the rifle and the pistol are equally indispensable... more than 99% of them by their silence indicate that they are in safe and sane hands. The very atmosphere of firearms everywhere restrains evil interference .When firearms go, all goes, we need them every hour." -- George Washington

  21. #21
    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MSG Laigaie View Post
    I had to do this, he does appear to be overpowered.
    Please don't insult us with fake pictures, or staged. If you have a news report, arrest report, or theft report to match the photo it is complete Bovine Scatology!
    Last edited by WalkingWolf; 02-09-2014 at 03:49 PM.
    It is well that war is so terrible – otherwise we would grow too fond of it.
    Robert E. Lee
    The patriot volunteer, fighting for country and his rights, makes the most reliable soldier on earth.
    Thomas Jonathan "Stonewall" Jackson
    What separates the winners from the losers is how a person reacts to each new twist of fate.
    President Donald Trump

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    Please don't insult us with fake pictures, or staged. If you have a news report, arrest report, or theft report to match the photo it is complete Bovine Scatology!
    Seems more likely that not - cite w/details required.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    Please don't insult us with fake pictures, or staged. If you have a news report, arrest report, or theft report to match the photo it is complete Bovine Scatology!
    I think John knows it's bull and is simply having fun with the pic.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

  24. #24
    Campaign Veteran MSG Laigaie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    Please don't insult us with fake pictures, or staged. If you have a news report, arrest report, or theft report to match the photo it is complete Bovine Scatology!
    Slack off on the bloody coffee mate, it is called "comedy". If you feel insulted, that would be your problem.
    "Firearms stand next in importance to the Constitution itself. They are the people's liberty teeth (and) keystone... the rifle and the pistol are equally indispensable... more than 99% of them by their silence indicate that they are in safe and sane hands. The very atmosphere of firearms everywhere restrains evil interference .When firearms go, all goes, we need them every hour." -- George Washington

  25. #25
    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MSG Laigaie View Post
    Slack off on the bloody coffee mate, it is called "comedy". If you feel insulted, that would be your problem.
    You didn't use a smiley, or sacasm note to indicate it was comedy, on the internet there is no way to tell if some bloke is joking or seriuus. By your hateful response it seems you were serious, and YOU have need to slack off the coffee. Other than that ***** ** ** **** *** ****.
    Last edited by Grapeshot; 02-12-2014 at 01:18 PM. Reason: Verbiage not acceptable on this forum
    It is well that war is so terrible – otherwise we would grow too fond of it.
    Robert E. Lee
    The patriot volunteer, fighting for country and his rights, makes the most reliable soldier on earth.
    Thomas Jonathan "Stonewall" Jackson
    What separates the winners from the losers is how a person reacts to each new twist of fate.
    President Donald Trump

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