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Thread: OK Bill Would Allow Electronic Citations for Traffic Violation [as red-light cameras]

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    OK Bill Would Allow Electronic Citations for Traffic Violation [as red-light cameras]

    "“Allowing officers to issue electronic citations will help better protect them. If they don’t have to approach vehicles during traffic stops to give people tickets but can simply email traffic violation citations directly to the district court clerk then they’re less likely to get into a dangerous altercation,” said McAffrey, D-Oklahoma City."

    http://www.insurancejournal.com/news.../27/318429.htm

    "Ultimately, the worst side effect of this bill is that it will lower the bar for ticket writing. Officers will be able to write more tickets for more violations (even minor ones that would previously go unnoticed) simply because they won’t be slowed by interactions with the public. Removing this friction will increase the number of tickets issued, whether truly warranted or not. Traffic cams spit out tons of tickets because the “decision” is binary and wholly removed from public interaction. Cops with an e-ticket platform will likely become indistinguishable from the unblinking eyes watching over many American cities. And once this new way of policing kicks in, the cities utilizing the method will find the increased revenue hard to resist, which will prompt even more questionable legislation and tactics further down the line. [my emphasis]"

    http://www.techdirt.com/articles/201...vehicles.shtml

    http://www.infowars.com/former-cop-p...heir-vehicles/
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    is it possible this could be a good thing ? if officers aren't approaching vehicles then there will be far fewer detainments and intrusiveness into peoples lives. fewer arrests.

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    Quote Originally Posted by onus View Post
    [ ... ] fewer arrests.
    Fewer arrests but greater expense. What is to prevent fining each passing driver $1 knowing that a large fraction will pay by compliant default. Require skin-in-the-game from the cops, make him commit something, doxastic commitment.
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    First of all, how the **** are they going to email it to me? Ask the NSA for my email address? Or are they going to require you have a valid email address in order to get a drivers license? Also, will spam filters blocking their emails be a legitimate defense in court? I may have no control over the spam filtering systems in place protecting my email service. Even if I did, will I be legally obligated to whitelist government addresses? **** this bill. I hope someone like the eff is all over it. It flies in the face of so much right.
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    Regular Member stealthyeliminator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onus View Post
    is it possible this could be a good thing ? if officers aren't approaching vehicles then there will be far fewer detainments and intrusiveness into peoples lives. fewer arrests.
    Its a nice thought, but, ironically, you are being far too optimistic. The intrusions that this could lead to are far greater than an unjustified 10 minute detainment or getting police dog hair on your seats.
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    Quote Originally Posted by stealthyeliminator View Post
    First of all, how the **** are they going to email it to me? <snip>
    The article said that the officer would email it to the court clerk, not to you.

    IMHO, just another revenue stream. I agree with the other posters (in a way), why send the ticket to the RO without checking the driver?

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    Regular Member stealthyeliminator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by teddyearp View Post
    The article said that the officer would email it to the court clerk, not to you.

    IMHO, just another revenue stream. I agree with the other posters (in a way), why send the ticket to the RO without checking the driver?
    My mistake, I haven't read the full articles yet because I'm using my phone. Should have disclaimed that I may be posting with some ignorance of the facts.

    Either way, I don't see how this could at all be accomplished without hugely lowering evidentiary requirements.

    All this means is that they can issue citations without investigating or facing the accused. I know see That it's emailed (to the clerk) has nothing to do with it. If they still just wrote it down and then hand delivered it to the clerk without stopping or talking to the driver it'd be the same thing, right? I have a feeling that the only reason the electronic submission is a part of this is to destract from the real issue at hand - that they are trying to get away from having to face those that they're accusing of crimes. They want to move away from real police work and move to watching people through binoculars, keeping an arbitrary ledger of who owes what.
    Last edited by stealthyeliminator; 02-08-2014 at 08:16 PM.
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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    They'll now have an excuse for kicking in more wrong doors when the tickets are not received by the "perps" and warrants are generated.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Now:
    You get stopped for speeding. You think the limit was not posted properly. You take ticket. You reverse course and see that signage was indeed not posted properly. You take pics/notes/measurements of incorrect signage. You go to court. You plead the affirmative defense. You show pics and measurements to judge. Judge finds you not guilty.

    After new law:
    You get ticket in mail. You go and find that signage not up to code. Take pics & measurements. Go to court. You plead affirmative defense,, show evidence to judge. Judge finds you guilty. Why? Because you had no evidence that the signage was posted that way on the day/time you allegedly violated the law but only evidence regarding the signage weeks/months later.

    OR

    Now:
    you get pulled over; get speeding ticket; recall a speeding car that passed you (happened 3 min. ago, memory fresh and now burned into your brain); concluded cop got wrong car - now have argument to make in court.

    After new law:
    you get ticket in mail; cannot recall anything about it. ie screwed.


    Such a law is totally unfair and so far up due process' butt that it screams "scam".

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    Quote Originally Posted by stealthyeliminator View Post
    First of all, how the **** are they going to email it to me? Ask the NSA for my email address? Or are they going to require you have a valid email address in order to get a drivers license? Also, will spam filters blocking their emails be a legitimate defense in court? I may have no control over the spam filtering systems in place protecting my email service. Even if I did, will I be legally obligated to whitelist government addresses? **** this bill. I hope someone like the eff is all over it. It flies in the face of so much right.
    If they wanted to go that route, I guess that they would assign you an email addess "payheresucka301@yourscrewed.com"

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    Hmmm.cannot find the bill on the OK leg. website bill search page....I filed a FOIA request to the senator .... I'll find out if its a fake story or not
    Last edited by davidmcbeth; 02-09-2014 at 02:43 AM.

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    Wis went to E citations several years back here a hard copy is given to the defendant The Clerk of courts and DA are sent electronic copies.

    Officers most likely well almost always print a hard copy for them selves to attach other reports and paper work to.

    We started by down loading them on a disk, or a thumb drive and taking that into the clerks office ,now they are sent over the net.
    Last edited by Firearms Iinstuctor; 02-09-2014 at 09:33 AM.
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    Regular Member Primus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firearms Iinstuctor View Post
    Wis went to E citations several years back here a hard copy is given to the defendant The Clerk of courts and DA are sent electronic copies.

    Officers most likely well almost always print a hard copy for them selves to attach other reports and paper work to.
    Good point. The PD itself should have a copy and the officer himself should have a copy too. Our citations are already carbon copied so its like that but i know other states run weird looking books. I wonder if even with the e tickets it'll be policy the PD has a copy and officer does too.

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    This seems very creepy to me.

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    Regular Member teddyearp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    <snip>Such a law is totally unfair and so far up due process' butt that it screams "scam".
    But that's one thing about a speeding ticket or any other 'ticket'. It's an infraction, not an actual crime, so there really isn't any thing constitutional about it at all, hence no need for the usual constitutional protection.

    Someone said once, that "If it breaks my leg, or picks my pocket, then it should be illegal"

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kurt555gs View Post
    This seems very creepy to me.

    Kurt on G+ http://goo.gl/EX4gL2
    The whole idea of having people creep around and cite anybody for non crimes is creepy to me.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    ...After new law:
    you get ticket in mail; cannot recall anything about it. ie screwed...
    This
    "It's not important how many people I've killed. What's important is how I get along with the people who are still alive" - Jimmy the Tulip

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    Quote Originally Posted by teddyearp View Post
    But that's one thing about a speeding ticket or any other 'ticket'. It's an infraction, not an actual crime, so there really isn't any thing constitutional about it at all, hence no need for the usual constitutional protection.

    Someone said once, that "If it breaks my leg, or picks my pocket, then it should be illegal"
    Depends on the state ... my state goes by criminal rules of procedure w/traffic tickets

    Most others, civil rules and still others, special rules.

    But with all, the process must be fair.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    "“Allowing officers to issue electronic citations will help better protect them. If they don’t have to approach vehicles during traffic stops to give people tickets but can simply email traffic violation citations directly to the district court clerk then they’re less likely to get into a dangerous altercation,” said McAffrey, D-Oklahoma City."
    If they don't approach the vehicle then they can't identify the driver. I'll bet these tickets are filed under civil rules just like camera tickets.

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    Quote Originally Posted by teddyearp View Post
    But that's one thing about a speeding ticket or any other 'ticket'. It's an infraction, not an actual crime, so there really isn't any thing constitutional about it at all, hence no need for the usual constitutional protection.

    Someone said once, that "If it breaks my leg, or picks my pocket, then it should be illegal"
    I know you're being a bit sarcastic but...

    I have yet to have anyone show me proof of any type of case other than civil or criminal. "Infractions" are fictions.

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    Regular Member Primus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by georg jetson View Post
    I know you're being a bit sarcastic but...

    I have yet to have anyone show me proof of any type of case other than civil or criminal. "Infractions" are fictions.
    When you were in school and broke a rule and assigned detention what would that be? Civil or criminal? Breaking a rule (no talking) that is enforced by authority (teacher) that is assigned a punishment (detention) that is basically imprisonment. So all kinds of rights violations with a semblance of a process. To which you can appeal to a judge (principal) So what is that system fall under?

    I honestly don't know but I'd submit its not civil nor criminal. Mind you even if your 18 years old and in highschool you still fall under the same "system". You agree to this system by showing up to school. You agree to traffic system by driving.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Primus View Post
    When you were in school and broke a rule and assigned detention what would that be? Civil or criminal? Breaking a rule (no talking) that is enforced by authority (teacher) that is assigned a punishment (detention) that is basically imprisonment. So all kinds of rights violations with a semblance of a process. To which you can appeal to a judge (principal) So what is that system fall under?

    I honestly don't know but I'd submit its not civil nor criminal. Mind you even if your 18 years old and in highschool you still fall under the same "system". You agree to this system by showing up to school. You agree to traffic system by driving.

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    Ummm no. You're forced to attend school. It is law. It is mandatory. There is nothing voluntary about going through elementary, middle or high school.
    Last edited by stealthyeliminator; 02-09-2014 at 10:13 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by stealthyeliminator View Post
    Ummm no. You're forced to attend school. It is law. It is mandatory. There is nothing voluntary about going through elementary, middle or high school.
    You can drip out when your 16 with approval in MA. Its actually quiet common.


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  24. #24
    Regular Member stealthyeliminator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Primus View Post
    You can drip out when your 16 with approval in MA. Its actually quiet common.


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    I'm guessing this is state specific, but even then, prior to hitting 16 you're forced to go to school. It is mandatory, by law. It is not voluntary. You're statement was false.
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    Regular Member Primus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stealthyeliminator View Post
    I'm guessing this is state specific, but even then, prior to hitting 16 you're forced to go to school. It is mandatory, by law. It is not voluntary. You're statement was false.
    At some point in time you are in school voluntarily.

    How about this... since you want to attack the example and not the co concept...

    College. In college same thing. Rules. Consequences. Hearings. Punishments. Judges. Maybe no detention. But still consequences.

    Weren't we following a thread where a student was booted/withdrew from school over ocing?

    What would that system be? Civil or criminal?

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