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Thread: Carrying In Church with Kindergarten?

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    Carrying In Church with Kindergarten?

    I am the emergency contact for my niece. She attends kindergarten that is inside a church. Is it legal to carry if I would have to pick her up? From what I can tell, the church has pre-k and kindergarten during the day.

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    Quote Originally Posted by penbwy View Post
    I am the emergency contact for my niece. She attends kindergarten that is inside a church. Is it legal to carry if I would have to pick her up? From what I can tell, the church has pre-k and kindergarten during the day.
    Welcome to OCDO Penbwy.

    Not legal on "the property of any public, private or religious elementary, middle or high school, including buildings and grounds"

    Exceptions:
    (vi) a person who possesses an unloaded firearm that is in a closed container, or a knife having a metal blade, in or upon a motor vehicle, or an unloaded shotgun or rifle in a firearms rack in or upon a motor vehicle; (vii) a person who has a valid concealed handgun permit and possesses a concealed handgun while in a motor vehicle in a parking lot, traffic circle, or other means of vehicular ingress or egress to the school

    https://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/leg...cod+18.2-308.1
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    Regular Member 2a4all's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by penbwy View Post
    I am the emergency contact for my niece. She attends kindergarten that is inside a church. Is it legal to carry if I would have to pick her up? From what I can tell, the church has pre-k and kindergarten during the day.
    Welcome to OCDO.

    It sounds like you might be conflicted between "carry in church" and "carry on school grounds" rules. I would err on the side of the school grounds rules, which allow for carry while in a motor vehicle to drop off or pick up a student, provided you meet the proper conditions. However, you must remain in the vehicle. If you need to go inside, you'd need to unload and secure your firearm before going onto church property.

    Applying these single-property-use rules to dual-use properties can be a bit tricky.
    A law-abiding citizen should be able to carry his personal protection firearm anywhere that an armed criminal might go.

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    Regular Member MamaLiberty's Avatar
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    Why would anyone who values life and self defense take their children to a disarmed victim zone?
    I will not knowingly initiate force. I am a self owner.

    Let the record show that I did not consent to be governed. I did not consent to any constitution. I did not consent to any president. I did not consent to any law except the natural law of "mala en se." I did not consent to the police. Nor any tax. Nor any prohibition of anything. Nor any regulation or licensing of any kind.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MamaLiberty View Post
    Why would anyone who values life and self defense take their children to a disarmed victim zone?
    While I understand your sentiment, the Gun-Free School Zones Act of 1990 puts education facilities in that category. So, at least in Virginia, there isn't a way around it without legislative change.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by homestar View Post
    While I understand your sentiment, the Gun-Free School Zones Act of 1990 puts education facilities in that category. So, at least in Virginia, there isn't a way around it without legislative change.
    Home schooling works, but isn't a viable option for all.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Home schooling works, but isn't a viable option for all.
    Touché.

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    On a related note: Was the old AG opinion stating that self defense supports justifiable reason to carry in church ever codified?

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    Regular Member MamaLiberty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by homestar View Post
    While I understand your sentiment, the Gun-Free School Zones Act of 1990 puts education facilities in that category. So, at least in Virginia, there isn't a way around it without legislative change.
    Of course there is. You simply do not take children into those zones, or go in yourself. Not everyone is prepared to do that consistently, and that's a shame, but that's not the same as having no choice.

    There is no square inch of the planet where the risk of attack is zero. Those who wish to harm others are quite aware of the "no gun zones" where a smörgåsbord of helpless victims is available. Why would anyone who understands this put themselves or their children in such a place?

    These "laws" exist because too many people somehow accept the foolish idea that "government" or "public opinion" has some sort of legitimate authority to decide these things for them. These "laws" and the danger will continue until people get over this lethal superstition.
    I will not knowingly initiate force. I am a self owner.

    Let the record show that I did not consent to be governed. I did not consent to any constitution. I did not consent to any president. I did not consent to any law except the natural law of "mala en se." I did not consent to the police. Nor any tax. Nor any prohibition of anything. Nor any regulation or licensing of any kind.

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    There is also the two-part "Secured Container" and "mutatis mutandis" exemptions from § 18.2-308.1, but to the best of my knowledge, that has not yet been vetted in a court case.

    In short, § 18.2-308.1 is the code that prohibits carry on school grounds. It references and incorporates the same list of exemptions found in § 18.2-308.

    "The exemptions set out in § 18.2-308 shall apply, mutatis mutandis, to the provisions of this section."

    The "Secured Container" exemption from § 18.2-308 provides this:

    "10. Any person who may lawfully possess a firearm and is carrying a handgun while in a personal, private motor vehicle or vessel and such handgun is secured in a container or compartment in the vehicle or vessel;"

    When you add this all up, it would appear that storage in a secured container is exempted from the general prohibition on school grounds. The difference between this and the direction given earlier is that you would not have to unload the gun, which is not only quicker, but also much safer.

    As I said, some are leery of this, and I don't know that it has been tried in court at this point. It would be an interesting case to watch out for, but of course the only way it would show up in court would be if someone is arrested for doing it.

    TFred

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    Thanks for all the replies. I will keep it in the car if I ever pick her up. How about magazines, is it illegal to carry those into a no carry zone? I carry a spare.

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    Regular Member 2a4all's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TFred View Post
    There is also the two-part "Secured Container" and "mutatis mutandis" exemptions from § 18.2-308.1, but to the best of my knowledge, that has not yet been vetted in a court case.

    In short, § 18.2-308.1 is the code that prohibits carry on school grounds. It references and incorporates the same list of exemptions found in § 18.2-308.

    "The exemptions set out in § 18.2-308 shall apply, mutatis mutandis, to the provisions of this section."

    The "Secured Container" exemption from § 18.2-308 provides this:

    "10. Any person who may lawfully possess a firearm and is carrying a handgun while in a personal, private motor vehicle or vessel and such handgun is secured in a container or compartment in the vehicle or vessel;"

    When you add this all up, it would appear that storage in a secured container is exempted from the general prohibition on school grounds. The difference between this and the direction given earlier is that you would not have to unload the gun, which is not only quicker, but also much safer.

    As I said, some are leery of this, and I don't know that it has been tried in court at this point. It would be an interesting case to watch out for, but of course the only way it would show up in court would be if someone is arrested for doing it.

    TFred
    I believe the distinction lies in the fact that you must remain in your vehicle with the firearm. The school prohibition/exemption doesn't let you leave a loaded firearm unattended in your vehicle.
    A law-abiding citizen should be able to carry his personal protection firearm anywhere that an armed criminal might go.

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2a4all View Post
    I believe the distinction lies in the fact that you must remain in your vehicle with the firearm. The school prohibition/exemption doesn't let you leave a loaded firearm unattended in your vehicle.
    This is a case where two laws do not mesh cleanly. The secured container exemption doesn't address leaving the car. If you exit your car and you leave a gun in the secured container, then you are obviously no longer carrying a concealed handgun (in fact you are no longer carrying a gun AT ALL), and the secured container exemption specifically covers NOT utilizing the CHP coverage. But the exemption that is codified in the school grounds prohibition specifically applies ONLY to CHP holders.

    In my mind, the secured container provision is a broader exemption and would outweigh the "stay in the car" exemption. The school grounds section does specifically incorporate the secured container exemption, if there are two exemptions and one is broader than the other, what reason would the state have to impose the more restrictive exemption over the less restrictive exemption?

    It's certainly likely that some enthusiastic LEO will arrest someone for this some day, and I just hope they have a defense attorney of "User" caliber to make sure they set a good precedent.

    TFred
    Last edited by TFred; 02-09-2014 at 11:07 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TFred View Post
    This is a case where two laws do not mesh cleanly. The secured container exemption doesn't address leaving the car. If you exit your car and you leave a gun in the secured container, then you are obviously no longer carrying a concealed handgun (in fact you are no longer carrying a gun AT ALL), and the secured container exemption specifically covers NOT utilizing the CHP coverage. But the exemption that is codified in the school grounds prohibition specifically applies ONLY to CHP holders.

    In my mind, the secured container provision is a broader exemption and would outweigh the "stay in the car" exemption. The school grounds section does specifically incorporate the secured container exemption, if there are two exemptions and one is broader than the other, what reason would the state have to impose the more restrictive exemption over the less restrictive exemption?

    It's certainly likely that some enthusiastic LEO will arrest someone for this some day, and I just hope they have a defense attorney of "User" caliber to make sure they set a good precedent.

    TFred
    Sorry, TFred, but you're wrong on this one. The "secured container" provision does require that you be in the vehicle. From what you posted:
    10. Any person who may lawfully possess a firearm and is carrying a handgun while in a personal, private motor vehicle or vessel and such handgun is secured in a container or compartment in the vehicle or vessel;
    That provision only applies "while in a personal, private motor vehicle". Once you step out of the vehicle, you are no longer "in" the vehicle, and so that provision no longer applies. At that point, the unloaded provision takes effect:
    (vi) a person who possesses an unloaded firearm that is in a closed container, or a knife having a metal blade, in or upon a motor vehicle, or an unloaded shotgun or rifle in a firearms rack in or upon a motor vehicle;
    Note that this provision does not limit itself to while the person is in the motor vehicle, but specifies that the firearm (or knife) must be in the vehicle in a closed container or firearms rack.

    It's a one-word difference, but it makes all the difference.
    Alma 43:47 - "And again, the Lord has said that: Ye shall defend your families even unto bloodshed...."
    Self defense isn't just a good idea, it's a commandment.

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    Regular Member ProShooter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by homestar View Post
    On a related note: Was the old AG opinion stating that self defense supports justifiable reason to carry in church ever codified?
    No....its still illegal.
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    Quote Originally Posted by grylnsmn View Post
    Sorry, TFred, but you're wrong on this one. The "secured container" provision does require that you be in the vehicle. From what you posted:That provision only applies "while in a personal, private motor vehicle". Once you step out of the vehicle, you are no longer "in" the vehicle, and so that provision no longer applies. At that point, the unloaded provision takes effect:Note that this provision does not limit itself to while the person is in the motor vehicle, but specifies that the firearm (or knife) must be in the vehicle in a closed container or firearms rack.

    It's a one-word difference, but it makes all the difference.
    § 18.2-308.1. Possession of firearm, stun weapon, or other weapon on school property prohibited.

    B. If any person possesses any firearm designed or intended to expel a projectile by action of an explosion of a combustible material while such person is upon (i) any public, private or religious elementary, middle or high school, including buildings and grounds

    https://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+cod+18.2-308.1
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    § 18.2-308.1. Possession of firearm, stun weapon, or other weapon on school property prohibited.

    B. If any person possesses any firearm designed or intended to expel a projectile by action of an explosion of a combustible material while such person is upon (i) any public, private or religious elementary, middle or high school, including buildings and grounds

    https://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+cod+18.2-308.1
    Yes, but we have been discussing the exemptions to that provision, listed in both 18.2-308.1 and 18.2-308 (as referenced in 18.2-308.1).

    Carry on school grounds for most people (i.e. not LEO, or other "privileged class" individuals) is prohibited, except for three cases:

    1) With a CHP, any manner of carry is allowed as long as you remain in your motor vehicle (see 18.2-308.1(C)(vii))
    2) Loaded, in a secured container, while you are in a motor vehicle (see 18.2-308(C)(10), as referenced by 182.-308.1(C)), or
    3) Unloaded in a closed container or firearms rack in or on a motor vehicle (see 18.2-308.1(C)(vi))

    School grounds is defined in the law as being K-12, so preschools (pre-K) do not count, but pre-K and K would count (because of the K).
    Last edited by grylnsmn; 02-10-2014 at 08:51 AM.
    Alma 43:47 - "And again, the Lord has said that: Ye shall defend your families even unto bloodshed...."
    Self defense isn't just a good idea, it's a commandment.

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    How does one possess a gun that is inside a car, when one is outside the car?

    I have no cite off the top of my head, but I seem to recall the definition of possess for guns requires being on or about one's person, or with immediate access. No?

    TFred

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    Quote Originally Posted by TFred View Post
    How does one possess a gun that is inside a car, when one is outside the car?

    I have no cite off the top of my head, but I seem to recall the definition of possess for guns requires being on or about one's person, or with immediate access. No?

    TFred
    I don't have a cite handy either, but as I recall, "possess" relates to having access to/control over a gun, but doesn't necessarily mean that you have immediate access.

    For example, a felon can be charged with possession if they are in a house with an unsecured gun, even if it's in a different room from them (and they don't even know it's there). However, if it is in a locked safe that they don't have the key/combination to, they do not have possession of it.

    Similarly, if it is in your car that you have access to, then you would be in possession of it, because you have access to and control over it. Each of the three condition I cited (CHP inside car, loaded/secured container, unloaded/closed container/rack) is an exception to that prohibition on possession.
    Alma 43:47 - "And again, the Lord has said that: Ye shall defend your families even unto bloodshed...."
    Self defense isn't just a good idea, it's a commandment.

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    I'm not God, so I don't have the ultimate answer, but I think we too often try to twist code into much more difficult meanings that it was intended.

    All I can tell you for sure is that 18.2-308.1 prohibits you from carrying a gun onto school grounds, and that code specifically references an exemption which says if you put that gun (with no reference to loaded or unloaded) in a secured container, then it doesn't count as being carried onto school grounds.

    All the rest is a guess until it goes to court.

    TFred

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    Activist Member JamesCanby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by homestar View Post
    On a related note: Was the old AG opinion stating that self defense supports justifiable reason to carry in church ever codified?
    Quote Originally Posted by ProShooter View Post
    No....its still illegal.
    James, re: your posting that "it's still illegal" to carry in a church...

    The statute says "if any person carries any gun, pistol ... or other dangerous weapon, without good and sufficient reason, to a place of worship..." and Cuccinelli's opinion letter states that "carrying a weapon for personal protection constitutes a good and sufficient reason."

    Doesn't the former AG's opinion carry weight until and unless it is countermanded by a new opinion?
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    Quote Originally Posted by JamesCanby View Post
    Doesn't the former AG's opinion carry weight until and unless it is countermanded by a new opinion?
    IANAL but makes sense to me.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    An AG's opinion doesn't carry the force of law, but shall be considered and given weight.

    "Building upon the French Council of State, and using the state of Virginia as a model, this dissertation examines the guiding role that state attorney general opinions can play in resolving issues of ambiguity and statutory construction in various areas of public management and administration."
    http://scholar.lib.vt.edu/theses/ava.../KLongDiss.pdf
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    Regular Member ProShooter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JamesCanby View Post
    James, re: your posting that "it's still illegal" to carry in a church...

    The statute says "if any person carries any gun, pistol ... or other dangerous weapon, without good and sufficient reason, to a place of worship..." and Cuccinelli's opinion letter states that "carrying a weapon for personal protection constitutes a good and sufficient reason."

    Doesn't the former AG's opinion carry weight until and unless it is countermanded by a new opinion?

    Although the AG is (was) a heavy weight when it comes to his opinion, its still just an opinion from a lawyer. Its not law. A judge may agree with his opinion, or a judge / jury may say "yeah that's nice, but the law says otherwise". Until the law is changed to reflect his opinion, its still just an opinion.
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    Regular Member Maverick9's Avatar
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    I'm picturing an AG, a LEO, a Governor, a lawyer, a clergyman and a Principal all sitting around perusing the carry laws with their thumbs in the place where the Sun don't shine, all hoping to pull out a plum of an opinion.

    It's hilariously ridiculous and doesn't even do what they think the law does.

    It does not engender respect of the law, either.

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