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Carrying In Church with Kindergarten?
- Thread starter penbwy
- Start date
Welcome to OCDO Penbwy.
Not legal on "the property of any public, private or religious elementary, middle or high school, including buildings and grounds"
Exceptions:
(vi) a person who possesses an unloaded firearm that is in a closed container, or a knife having a metal blade, in or upon a motor vehicle, or an unloaded shotgun or rifle in a firearms rack in or upon a motor vehicle; (vii) a person who has a valid concealed handgun permit and possesses a concealed handgun while in a motor vehicle in a parking lot, traffic circle, or other means of vehicular ingress or egress to the school
https://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+cod+18.2-308.1
2a4all
Regular Member
Welcome to OCDO.
It sounds like you might be conflicted between "carry in church" and "carry on school grounds" rules. I would err on the side of the school grounds rules, which allow for carry while in a motor vehicle to drop off or pick up a student, provided you meet the proper conditions. However, you must remain in the vehicle. If you need to go inside, you'd need to unload and secure your firearm before going onto church property.
Applying these single-property-use rules to dual-use properties can be a bit tricky.
MamaLiberty
Regular Member
Why would anyone who values life and self defense take their children to a disarmed victim zone?
homestar
Regular Member
While I understand your sentiment, the Gun-Free School Zones Act of 1990 puts education facilities in that category. So, at least in Virginia, there isn't a way around it without legislative change.
Home schooling works, but isn't a viable option for all.
homestar
Regular Member
Touché.
homestar
Regular Member
On a related note: Was the old AG opinion stating that self defense supports justifiable reason to carry in church ever codified?
MamaLiberty
Regular Member
Of course there is. You simply do not take children into those zones, or go in yourself. Not everyone is prepared to do that consistently, and that's a shame, but that's not the same as having no choice.
There is no square inch of the planet where the risk of attack is zero. Those who wish to harm others are quite aware of the "no gun zones" where a smörgåsbord of helpless victims is available. Why would anyone who understands this put themselves or their children in such a place?
These "laws" exist because too many people somehow accept the foolish idea that "government" or "public opinion" has some sort of legitimate authority to decide these things for them. These "laws" and the danger will continue until people get over this lethal superstition.
TFred
Regular Member
There is also the two-part "Secured Container" and "mutatis mutandis" exemptions from § 18.2-308.1, but to the best of my knowledge, that has not yet been vetted in a court case.
In short, § 18.2-308.1 is the code that prohibits carry on school grounds. It references and incorporates the same list of exemptions found in § 18.2-308.
"The exemptions set out in § 18.2-308 shall apply, mutatis mutandis, to the provisions of this section."
The "Secured Container" exemption from § 18.2-308 provides this:
"10. Any person who may lawfully possess a firearm and is carrying a handgun while in a personal, private motor vehicle or vessel and such handgun is secured in a container or compartment in the vehicle or vessel;"
When you add this all up, it would appear that storage in a secured container is exempted from the general prohibition on school grounds. The difference between this and the direction given earlier is that you would not have to unload the gun, which is not only quicker, but also much safer.
As I said, some are leery of this, and I don't know that it has been tried in court at this point. It would be an interesting case to watch out for, but of course the only way it would show up in court would be if someone is arrested for doing it.
TFred
In short, § 18.2-308.1 is the code that prohibits carry on school grounds. It references and incorporates the same list of exemptions found in § 18.2-308.
"The exemptions set out in § 18.2-308 shall apply, mutatis mutandis, to the provisions of this section."
The "Secured Container" exemption from § 18.2-308 provides this:
"10. Any person who may lawfully possess a firearm and is carrying a handgun while in a personal, private motor vehicle or vessel and such handgun is secured in a container or compartment in the vehicle or vessel;"
When you add this all up, it would appear that storage in a secured container is exempted from the general prohibition on school grounds. The difference between this and the direction given earlier is that you would not have to unload the gun, which is not only quicker, but also much safer.
As I said, some are leery of this, and I don't know that it has been tried in court at this point. It would be an interesting case to watch out for, but of course the only way it would show up in court would be if someone is arrested for doing it.
TFred
2a4all
Regular Member
I believe the distinction lies in the fact that you must remain in your vehicle with the firearm. The school prohibition/exemption doesn't let you leave a loaded firearm unattended in your vehicle.
TFred
Regular Member
This is a case where two laws do not mesh cleanly. The secured container exemption doesn't address leaving the car. If you exit your car and you leave a gun in the secured container, then you are obviously no longer carrying a concealed handgun (in fact you are no longer carrying a gun AT ALL), and the secured container exemption specifically covers NOT utilizing the CHP coverage. But the exemption that is codified in the school grounds prohibition specifically applies ONLY to CHP holders.
In my mind, the secured container provision is a broader exemption and would outweigh the "stay in the car" exemption. The school grounds section does specifically incorporate the secured container exemption, if there are two exemptions and one is broader than the other, what reason would the state have to impose the more restrictive exemption over the less restrictive exemption?
It's certainly likely that some enthusiastic LEO will arrest someone for this some day, and I just hope they have a defense attorney of "User" caliber to make sure they set a good precedent.
TFred
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grylnsmn
Regular Member
Sorry, TFred, but you're wrong on this one. The "secured container" provision does require that you be in the vehicle. From what you posted:
That provision only applies "while in a personal, private motor vehicle". Once you step out of the vehicle, you are no longer "in" the vehicle, and so that provision no longer applies. At that point, the unloaded provision takes effect:
Note that this provision does not limit itself to while the person is in the motor vehicle, but specifies that the firearm (or knife) must be in the vehicle in a closed container or firearms rack.
It's a one-word difference, but it makes all the difference.
ProShooter
Regular Member
No....its still illegal.
§ 18.2-308.1. Possession of firearm, stun weapon, or other weapon on school property prohibited.
B. If any person possesses any firearm designed or intended to expel a projectile by action of an explosion of a combustible material while such person is upon (i) any public, private or religious elementary, middle or high school, including buildings and grounds
https://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+cod+18.2-308.1
grylnsmn
Regular Member
Yes, but we have been discussing the exemptions to that provision, listed in both 18.2-308.1 and 18.2-308 (as referenced in 18.2-308.1).
Carry on school grounds for most people (i.e. not LEO, or other "privileged class" individuals) is prohibited, except for three cases:
1) With a CHP, any manner of carry is allowed as long as you remain in your motor vehicle (see 18.2-308.1(C)(vii))
2) Loaded, in a secured container, while you are in a motor vehicle (see 18.2-308(C)(10), as referenced by 182.-308.1(C)), or
3) Unloaded in a closed container or firearms rack in or on a motor vehicle (see 18.2-308.1(C)(vi))
School grounds is defined in the law as being K-12, so preschools (pre-K) do not count, but pre-K and K would count (because of the K).
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TFred
Regular Member
How does one possess a gun that is inside a car, when one is outside the car?
I have no cite off the top of my head, but I seem to recall the definition of possess for guns requires being on or about one's person, or with immediate access. No?
TFred
I have no cite off the top of my head, but I seem to recall the definition of possess for guns requires being on or about one's person, or with immediate access. No?
TFred
grylnsmn
Regular Member
I don't have a cite handy either, but as I recall, "possess" relates to having access to/control over a gun, but doesn't necessarily mean that you have immediate access.
For example, a felon can be charged with possession if they are in a house with an unsecured gun, even if it's in a different room from them (and they don't even know it's there). However, if it is in a locked safe that they don't have the key/combination to, they do not have possession of it.
Similarly, if it is in your car that you have access to, then you would be in possession of it, because you have access to and control over it. Each of the three condition I cited (CHP inside car, loaded/secured container, unloaded/closed container/rack) is an exception to that prohibition on possession.
TFred
Regular Member
I'm not God, so I don't have the ultimate answer, but I think we too often try to twist code into much more difficult meanings that it was intended.
All I can tell you for sure is that 18.2-308.1 prohibits you from carrying a gun onto school grounds, and that code specifically references an exemption which says if you put that gun (with no reference to loaded or unloaded) in a secured container, then it doesn't count as being carried onto school grounds.
All the rest is a guess until it goes to court.
TFred
All I can tell you for sure is that 18.2-308.1 prohibits you from carrying a gun onto school grounds, and that code specifically references an exemption which says if you put that gun (with no reference to loaded or unloaded) in a secured container, then it doesn't count as being carried onto school grounds.
All the rest is a guess until it goes to court.
TFred