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Thread: Over the border from Illinois

  1. #1
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    Over the border from Illinois

    Hey all,

    I'm a bit of an enigma but here I go. I come from the UK, became a resident very recently after many years and money (it's a lot harder to be a legal migrant than to hop the fence!).

    I live in Illinois. I've been working through as many NRA classes as possible, I'm in the process of getting my Utah CCP.

    I'm literally about 15 miles from the border with Wisconsin. I'm 95% sure I can go up there and open carry, but you look at these youtube videos of people getting in deep trouble and it kind of freaks you out! I'm near Kenosha, which is the place over the border I frequent the most. Does anybody here open carry in that area?

    I'd like to go out there proud, increase awareness, but nobody want to be pinned to the floor and spend a night in jail right!


    I'm a ardent supporter of the 2nd amendment and I think it's amazing you guys have it. I come from a country with NO written constitution, and it's hard to put into words how much I appreciate the "set in stone" rights you have here.

    You can't choose where you were born, but you can choose where you live.

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    Founder's Club Member protias's Avatar
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    Welcome Mike. There are a number of us who carry (openly) here in WI. The police know not to harass law abiding citizens. Here is a bit of reading for you: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2014...-to-bear-arms/
    No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. Thomas Jefferson (1776)

    If you go into a store, with a gun, and rob it, you have forfeited your right to not get shot - Joe Deters, Hamilton County (Cincinnati) Prosecutor

    I ask sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people except for a few politicians. - George Mason (father of the Bill of Rights and The Virginia Declaration of Rights)

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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeLovell View Post
    Hey all,

    I'm a bit of an enigma but here I go. I come from the UK, became a resident very recently after many years and money (it's a lot harder to be a legal migrant than to hop the fence!).

    I live in Illinois. I've been working through as many NRA classes as possible, I'm in the process of getting my Utah CCP.

    I'm literally about 15 miles from the border with Wisconsin. I'm 95% sure I can go up there and open carry, but you look at these youtube videos of people getting in deep trouble and it kind of freaks you out! I'm near Kenosha, which is the place over the border I frequent the most. Does anybody here open carry in that area?

    I'd like to go out there proud, increase awareness, but nobody want to be pinned to the floor and spend a night in jail right!


    I'm a ardent supporter of the 2nd amendment and I think it's amazing you guys have it. I come from a country with NO written constitution, and it's hard to put into words how much I appreciate the "set in stone" rights you have here.

    You can't choose where you were born, but you can choose where you live.
    This gentleman went out there proud. Read and heed.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_C._Gonzalez

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    Quote Originally Posted by protias View Post
    Welcome Mike. There are a number of us who carry (openly) here in WI. The police know not to harass law abiding citizens. Here is a bit of reading for you: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2014...-to-bear-arms/
    Glad to hear it. It's the first time jitters talking. I'm pretty much a pacifist, I only believe in defense, NEVER attack. As such I've never even been in contact with the police in the UK or US (not even a traffic ticket). I've followed the laws of the land (as you should do as I guest in your country I believe).

    I've always agreed with the principal of having the means to defend yourself, but obviously that doesn't fly in the UK so I've only recently been able to have the opportunity to do it. Back in the UK you cannot carry ANYTHING for the sole purpose of self defense. i.e. if I have a wrench in my pocket and I'm stopped about it (no written constitution, they can stop you if they wish) and I don't have a good reason for having it (or even worse I flat out state I carry it to defend myself) THAT is a crime.

    If anybody regularly open carries in the Kenosha area, I'd love to tag along and dip my toes in the water.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Franky View Post
    This gentleman went out there proud. Read and heed.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_C._Gonzalez
    Tough call. The actual incident there's a lot of hearsay. For some reason I tend to doubt Gonzalez's story. I can only speak for myself but even simple assault would not be enough for me to use lethal force. Retreat and call the police. If it's impossible to retreat, and your life is in danger THEN lethal force is an option to consider.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Franky View Post
    This gentleman went out there proud. Read and heed.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_C._Gonzalez
    thanks for the citation. I hadn't thought to look there. I wonder if our other notorious, distaff, member has a Wikipedia article?
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

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    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeLovell
    I live in Illinois.
    So sorry to hear that.

    I'm in the process of getting my Utah CCP.
    If you haven't already taken the class, or if you know someone who's interested, we're going to have a UT class in Kenosha on 01MAR. I'll put a link to the signup page in the training section.

    I'm 95% sure I can go up there and open carry
    As long as you're not a prohibited person, you're legal to OC in WI.
    If you don't have a license or permit that WI recognizes you have to unload & encase in school zones (which aren't marked),
    you have to get permission to enter a "tavern" (a bar or restaurant which serves alcohol),
    and you can't go into a taxpayer-owned building.
    ETA: and of course, you can't conceal.

    nobody want to be pinned to the floor and spend a night in jail right!
    Kenosha PD should remember their last run-in with an OCer... he spent a night in jail, they lost the federal civil rights suit.

    The actual incident there's a lot of hearsay.
    But many of the witnesses in the bar originally said that the criminals who attacked Jesus were acting badly much of the evening, and drinking lots of alcohol... which supports his claim of their bad behaviour after they left (the one walking threatening him, and the drunk driving the car drove toward him).
    I'd be interested to know why some of them changed their statements.
    And physical evidence supports Jesus' claim that the car was driving at him - scrapes from the bullets were longitudinal on the car's roof.

    If it's impossible to retreat, and your life is in danger THEN lethal force is an option to consider.
    Could he have run further away from the guy on foot, or somehow gotten out of the path of the car?
    We'll never know.
    But how much do you have to try to do to get out of the way before it's OK to defend yourself?
    Last edited by MKEgal; 02-11-2014 at 04:55 PM.
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    Thanks for the response...

    Quote Originally Posted by MKEgal View Post
    So sorry to hear that.
    Not by choice. I worked for a multinational in the UK, they're headquartered in Chicago, so they moved me over here.

    Fortunately I'm very close to the border with Wisconsin.

    Quote Originally Posted by MKEgal View Post
    If you haven't already taken the class, or if you know someone who's interested, we're going to have a UT class in Kenosha on 01MAR. I'll put a link to the signup page in the training section.
    I did already take the class, I'd already done NRA Phase 1 basic pistol previously so unfortunately 75% of it was rehashed stuff I'd already learnt. But the legal stuff was very interesting.

    Quote Originally Posted by MKEgal View Post
    As long as you're not a prohibited person, you're legal to OC in WI.
    If you don't have a license or permit that WI recognizes you have to unload & encase in school zones (which aren't marked),
    No, I'm certainly not prohibited. Not so much as a parking ticket in my many years here.

    So you can open carry in a school zone WITH a Utah CCP?

    Quote Originally Posted by MKEgal View Post
    you have to get permission to enter a "tavern" (a bar or restaurant which serves alcohol),
    Does that only apply without a CCP or always?

    This seems a bit of a sticky area for me.

    • How do you get permission without entering, you have to call up?
    • If you do call up, how can you prove you did call, and they answered yes?



    Quote Originally Posted by MKEgal View Post
    and you can't go into a taxpayer-owned building.
    ETA: and of course, you can't conceal.
    Understood.

    Quote Originally Posted by MKEgal View Post
    Kenosha PD should remember their last run-in with an OCer... he spent a night in jail, they lost the federal civil rights suit.
    Glad to hear it!

    Quote Originally Posted by MKEgal View Post
    But many of the witnesses in the bar originally said that the criminals who attacked Jesus were acting badly much of the evening, and drinking lots of alcohol... which supports his claim of their bad behaviour after they left (the one walking threatening him, and the drunk driving the car drove toward him).
    I'd be interested to know why some of them changed their statements.
    And physical evidence supports Jesus' claim that the car was driving at him - scrapes from the bullets were longitudinal on the car's roof.
    I really don't know on that one.

    Quote Originally Posted by MKEgal View Post
    Could he have run further away from the guy on foot, or somehow gotten out of the path of the car?
    We'll never know.
    But how much do you have to try to do to get out of the way before it's OK to defend yourself?
    That's was more of my personal statement. I'd personally be very reluctant to take a life, and it would have to be the most extreme conditions that forced me into it.

    Regardless of if I could legally do so at the time. I'm pretty much a pacifist.

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    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
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    So you can open carry in a school zone WITH a Utah CCP?
    In Wisconsin?
    WI law says yes. Federal law says no.
    Federal law says that the carry license must be issued by the state where the school sits.
    That being said, there hasn't been a case to challenge that in court that I'm aware of.

    re: carrying in a tavern
    Does that only apply without a CCP or always?
    With a license you can go spend money there as long as they're not posted. The sign must be at least 5x7" and "near every entrance" in a place "reasonably likely" to come to the attention of people entering.
    Without a license you have to get permission.

    How do you get permission without entering, you have to call up
    Back when there was no ccl and we could only OC, we had to get permission.
    Usually I'd just walk in somewhere I wanted to eat and ask whoever was seating people, or whoever was at the counter, "is it OK if I have lunch?".
    They generally looked at me like I was from Mars, but always said yes.
    (Forgot to mention that the law requires permission from the owner or manager.)
    Nowadays if they don't want our kind they'll put up a sign.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MKEgal View Post
    In Wisconsin?
    WI law says yes. Federal law says no.
    Federal law says that the carry license must be issued by the state where the school sits.
    That being said, there hasn't been a case to challenge that in court that I'm aware of.
    I'm not planning to enter said zones, I mean I have no need to visit a school in Wisconsin, but if the zones are not marked, it's not impossible.

    Quote Originally Posted by MKEgal View Post
    With a license you can go spend money there as long as they're not posted. The sign must be at least 5x7" and "near every entrance" in a place "reasonably likely" to come to the attention of people entering.
    Without a license you have to get permission.
    Okay, that makes things easier (when it arrives).


    Quote Originally Posted by MKEgal View Post
    Back when there was no ccl and we could only OC, we had to get permission.
    Usually I'd just walk in somewhere I wanted to eat and ask whoever was seating people, or whoever was at the counter, "is it OK if I have lunch?".
    They generally looked at me like I was from Mars, but always said yes.
    (Forgot to mention that the law requires permission from the owner or manager.)
    Nowadays if they don't want our kind they'll put up a sign.
    Did they see the gun? Otherwise they probably wondered why you were asking!

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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeLovell View Post
    I'm not planning to enter said zones, I mean I have no need to visit a school in Wisconsin, but if the zones are not marked, it's not impossible.



    Okay, that makes things easier (when it arrives).




    Did they see the gun? Otherwise they probably wondered why you were asking!
    You are setting up for a very bad 2014. Not paying attention to the 1000 ft school zone restriction could possibly be a downfall. Illinois resident attempting to OC in Kenosha could possibly turn into an extremely costly adventure.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Franky View Post
    You are setting up for a very bad 2014. Not paying attention to the 1000 ft school zone restriction could possibly be a downfall. Illinois resident attempting to OC in Kenosha could possibly turn into an extremely costly adventure.
    Is there anywhere you can go and have this overlayed on a map or something? I really don't think the places I'm planning to visit are anywhere near schools but yes, I don't want to accidentally be near one.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeLovell View Post
    Is there anywhere you can go and have this overlayed on a map or something? I really don't think the places I'm planning to visit are anywhere near schools but yes, I don't want to accidentally be near one.
    You don't want to know. An element of the criminal statute is knowing or reasonably believing one is on the grounds of a school.

    948.605 Gun−free school zones. [ ... ] (2) POSSESSION OF FIREARM IN SCHOOL ZONE.
    (a) Any individual who knowingly possesses a firearm at a place that the individual knows, or has reasonable cause to believe, is in or on the grounds of a school is guilty of a Class I felony. Any individual who knowingly possesses a firearm at a place that the individual knows, or has reasonable cause to believe, is within 1,000 feet of the grounds of a school is subject to a Class B forfeiture.
    I'm sure the dull will be along to affirm from their experience.
    Last edited by Nightmare; 02-13-2014 at 12:31 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    You don't want to know. An element of the criminal statute is knowing or reasonably believing one is on the grounds of a school.



    I'm sure the dull will be along to affirm from their experience.
    Ah yes, the federal law says similar:

    "(A) It shall be unlawful for any individual knowingly to possess a firearm that has moved in or that otherwise affects interstate or foreign commerce at a place that the individual knows, or has reasonable cause to believe, is a school zone."

    That would explain why people haven't compiled such information.

    It would seem actually tricky to convict somebody of this, just walking down the street. Unless you can actually see the school in plain view and it's obviously a school.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeLovell View Post
    Ah yes, the federal law says similar: "(A) It shall be unlawful for any individual knowingly to possess a firearm that has moved in or that otherwise affects interstate or foreign commerce at a place that the individual knows, or has reasonable cause to believe, is a school zone."

    That would explain why people haven't compiled such information.

    It would seem actually tricky to convict somebody of this, just walking down the street. Unless you can actually see the school in plain view and it's obviously a school.
    How do you legally travel the public highway armed within a thousand feet of a school. There is no exception for the public highway.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeLovell View Post
    I'm not planning to enter said zones..........snipped
    Typical GFSZ in many US cities + they hide behind buildings, just around the corner or over the hill. Many churchs have kindergartens that may not be identified on the building - warning, if you can read the signage then you are way to close.



    K-12 (public & private) - all the same. 1000' from the edge of the property at any given point - the shaded area would appear scolloped, not even rounded edge. It is not based on a radius from the center.

    Do you see the problem yet?
    Last edited by Grapeshot; 02-13-2014 at 01:03 PM. Reason: Added
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    How do you legally travel the public highway armed within a thousand feet of a school. There is no exception for the public highway.
    One, of the many, reason[s] that this law is still (again) unconstitutional.

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    Quote Originally Posted by notalawyer View Post
    One, of the many, reason[s] that this law is still (again) unconstitutional.
    Still unconstitutional and still - on information and belief - not prosecuted or enforced.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Typical GFSZ in many US cities + they hide behind buildings, just around the corner or over the hill.




    Do you see the problem yet?
    Many more problems. This map shows nice neat circles, however "within a distance of 1,000 feet from the grounds of a public, parochial or private school." means property lines! So you would need to map 1,000 feet from the property line borders in every direction.

    My daughter used to live near a school. Without benefit of a CWFL, drive to her house from the East and park in the street - violation of Federal law. Drive to her house from the West and park in the street - perfectly legal.

    Stupid law.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    Still unconstitutional and still - on information and belief - not prosecuted or enforced.
    It's actually been enforced and the conviction challenged in court and upheld, on six or eight occasions. However in everyone of these cases it was an add-on charge to drug dealing, or weapons trafficking, etc. I have never seen someone charged that was not otherwise violating Federal law.
    Last edited by notalawyer; 02-13-2014 at 01:11 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by notalawyer View Post
    Many more problems. This map shows nice neat circles, however "within a distance of 1,000 feet from the grounds of a public, parochial or private school." means property lines! So you would need to map 1,000 feet from the property line borders in every direction.

    My daughter used to live near a school. Without benefit of a CWFL, drive to her house from the East and park in the street - violation of Federal law. Drive to her house from the West and park in the street - perfectly legal.

    Stupid law.
    Has anybody been successfully prosecuted in Wisconsin for this (under either state or federal law)? I saw a few cases that were thrown out.

    Obviously if they're blatantly standing right in front of a school that's understandable to prosecute (under these laws). I'm more interested in the "fringe" cases.

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    Quote Originally Posted by notalawyer View Post
    One, of the many, reason[s] that this law is still (again) unconstitutional.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    Still unconstitutional and still - on information and belief - not prosecuted or enforced.
    On that note, most (all?) of us agree.

    The original GFSZ Act of 1990 was found to be unconstitutional - the present rewrite (1995) is insignificantly different.

    18 U.S.C. 921(a)(25)

    18 U.S.C. 922(q)

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun-Free_School_Zones_Act_of_1990


    http://wise.fau.edu/~tunick/courses/conlaw/gunlaw.html
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    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeLovell
    I'm not planning to enter said zones, I mean I have no need to visit a school in Wisconsin, but if the zones are not marked, it's not impossible.
    The zone is 1000' from the edge of the school property. Going in there w/o a ccl (or without unloading & encasing) is a ticket.
    Going on school property is a felony, even if you have a ccl, unless you fit one of the other exceptions. (One of which is having the gun unloaded & encased.)

    Did they see the gun? Otherwise they probably wondered why you were asking!
    Since all we could do at that point was carry openly, yes, of course they saw it (if they bothered to look). Problem is that many people don't really see. There's sort of a vague recognition that there's something on the belt, and the assumption is that it's a cell phone or pager or something like that.
    A couple times I've had people who should know better (they know I carry) who were surprised that I was armed, openly carrying, because they didn't actually see what they were looking at.

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeLovell
    Is there anywhere you can go and have this overlayed on a map or something?
    One small difference in federal & WI laws: federal law includes kindergarten in the magical zone, Wisconsin law only covers grades 1-12.
    You don't want to know where they are. Both federal & WI law require that you knowingly (or resonably should have known) were in the magic 1000' bubble.

    Here's the WI law:
    Any individual who knowingly possesses a firearm at a place that the individual knows, or has reasonable cause to believe, is in or on the grounds of a school is guilty of a Class I felony.
    Any individual who knowingly possesses a firearm at a place that the individual knows, or has reasonable cause to believe, is within 1,000 feet of the grounds of a school is subject to a Class B forfeiture.
    948.605(2)(a)
    Last edited by MKEgal; 02-13-2014 at 05:11 PM.

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    I know of several villages that have schools and almost the whole village is covered my the thousand foot rule.
    Personal Defensive Solutions professional personal firearms, edge weapons and hands on defensive training and tactics pdsolutions@hotmail.com

    Any and all spelling errors are just to give the spelling Nazis something to do

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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeLovell View Post
    Hey all,

    I'm a bit of an enigma but here I go. I come from the UK, became a resident very recently after many years and money (it's a lot harder to be a legal migrant than to hop the fence!).

    I live in Illinois. I've been working through as many NRA classes as possible, I'm in the process of getting my Utah CCP.

    I'm literally about 15 miles from the border with Wisconsin. I'm 95% sure I can go up there and open carry, but you look at these youtube videos of people getting in deep trouble and it kind of freaks you out! I'm near Kenosha, which is the place over the border I frequent the most. Does anybody here open carry in that area?

    I'd like to go out there proud, increase awareness, but nobody want to be pinned to the floor and spend a night in jail right!


    I'm a ardent supporter of the 2nd amendment and I think it's amazing you guys have it. I come from a country with NO written constitution, and it's hard to put into words how much I appreciate the "set in stone" rights you have here.

    You can't choose where you were born, but you can choose where you live.
    Welcome mate. Nice to have a Brit on the post. Was educated in UK for many years. Schooled at Blandford Forum and Christchurch. Miss the plowman's scotch egg, Rissoles ham and egg pie and those liver *******, I can't mention any more. Getting hungry for em. Oh I forgot those older Victory Vs with ether and chloroform in them! I live in the supposed nice part of the state. OC all the time unless it is too cold then CC. Too bad you are in Illinois. Yep, the English bill or rights are incorporated in our constitution like the 2A. I gather that Washington and Lady Spencer's ancestors were neighbors. In fact George's home is only 10 miles from theirs and they have a wooden Chest from Washington's home on the Spencer estate.
    Anyway Welcome to the blog.

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