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Thread: visitor- open carry - escorted out of Holliday Inn??

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    visitor- open carry - escorted out of Holliday Inn??

    Hello
    I am visiting AZ for a couple weeks, I am from Missouri. I hold a CCW permit from Missouri. My wife and I are here for the Gem and Mineral shows each year. I was in the Holliday Inn show yesterday and had some sheriff dept officers converge on me and tell me that open carry was not allowed in the Gem Show, I thought they meant just in that "ball room" where I was waiting for a dealer to return to his booth, I offered to stand outside in the hall way of the Holliday Inn and was told that I had to leave the building. I offered to untuck my shirt and cover my weapon , that still was not good enough , I had to leave the building. I never saw any posting banning guns, and had never heard of a no gun policy at any of the Gem Shows. I have carried open at the Jogs show, the gem mall , Kino[TEP] show and had never had any security show any interest.

    I am just posting as an observation. I was treated with respect and just had to leave the building. I will return today with my weapon concealed.

    sam

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    Regular Member DocWalker's Avatar
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    Ask for a written copy of their firearm policy from the gem show and the Holiday Inn. If they can't produce one and have none then file a complaint with the department for stupid cops that have no clue.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glassbysaam View Post
    --snipped--

    I am just posting as an observation. I was treated with respect and just had to leave the building. I will return today with my weapon concealed.
    sam
    Being made to leave the building is not being treated with respect. If that was not done under threat of arrest, at the least it was accomplished under color of law.

    Would definitely follow through.
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    Regular Member FreeInAZ's Avatar
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    Was the hotel or the show entrances posted? Also what city/county was this in? Maricopa sheriff's are well aware of OC & it's legality. Wonder if some hotel DICK didn't call and tell them to remove you? Sorry to hear of your troubles. While having your permit is good, it should not have been needed. You are covered under AZ constitutional carry, unless they were serving alcohol by the glass for consumption at the gem show or it was posted no firearms.
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    Regular Member azcdlfred's Avatar
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    Sorry to hear you were treated poorly. However, this is NOT a gun/weapon issue.

    This is a private property and trespassing issue. Regardless of whether a "no firearms" sign is posted or not, if the owner of private property, or their representative asks you to leave, that is their right. That fact that the police are already involved, if you had refused, they could have "trespassed" you and then arrested you.

    I've never seen any Gem Show venues posted, but that does not mean the management cannot ask you to leave without posting.

    Fred

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    Regular Member FreeInAZ's Avatar
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    We may not hear from the OP since he does not post often. OP, Fred is spot on. My comments were geared towards you being from a state were signs may not carry any legal weight, they do in AZ... for better or for worse...private property rights prevail as do [public/municipal: land /buildings/events forbidding carry,...particularly troubling to many...myself included]. AZ- a great gun rights/human rights state...perfect...no.

    @OP hope the rest of your stay is uneventful and enjoyable.
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    Regular Member azcdlfred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FreeInAZ View Post
    as do [public/municipal: land /buildings/events forbidding carry,...particularly troubling to many...myself included].
    Check out our Bill Tracking page. There are a couple of bills there that push on this issue.

    As an AzCDL exclusive to my friends here on Open Carry, AzCDL's February 2014 Newsletter has been posted at our website for your viewing pleasure.

    Inside you'll find a list of the current bills pending at the Legislature.

    Check out our latest raffle on page 4!

    Fred

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    good afternoon,
    We have been wondering around the Tucson Area looking at other gem and mineral venues today.
    The incident was at the Tucson Holiday Inn . I did NOT see any signs posted, BUT there is a lounge serving liquor by the glass in the same building as the motel/ meeting room complex. While I realize the lounge to be off limits I would have thought that the meeting rooms/ ball rooms and hotel rooms would be separate . The officers words were "We do not allow open carry in the gem show" and all the security at that show is the county sheriffs department.

    We start setting up for the convention show tomorrow morning , so may not get to that venue [holiday Inn] again before we leave. But if I do I will carry concealed and ask for written policy of the gem show promoters.

    Thanks to all that responded, I am very comfortable with your 2A stance in this state, and enjoy being here in the sun, it is20 degrees for a high today back in Missouri.

    Thanks again
    Sam from Missouri

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    Regular Member FreeInAZ's Avatar
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    You're welcome Sam. And thanks Fred for the info packed posts. :thumbup:
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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by azcdlfred View Post
    Sorry to hear you were treated poorly. However, this is NOT a gun/weapon issue.

    This is a private property and trespassing issue. Regardless of whether a "no firearms" sign is posted or not, if the owner of private property, or their representative asks you to leave, that is their right. That fact that the police are already involved, if you had refused, they could have "trespassed" you and then arrested you.

    I've never seen any Gem Show venues posted, but that does not mean the management cannot ask you to leave without posting.

    Fred
    Yes it is a gun/weapon issue. His OCing is what got him booted. If the venue is not posted, and "management" did not kick him out, the cops exceeded their authority, unlawfully so it seems. The trespassing issue is secondary as some cops use this charge to intimidate OCers where they can.

    Grape is right.

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    Regular Member azcdlfred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    Yes it is a gun/weapon issue. His OCing is what got him booted. If the venue is not posted, and "management" did not kick him out, the cops exceeded their authority, unlawfully so it seems. The trespassing issue is secondary as some cops use this charge to intimidate OCers where they can. Grape is right.
    Yes, his gun is what got their attention, but from a state statute perspective this is not a firearms law issue.

    It falls under the trespassing laws and in Arizona a posted "no firearms" notice is not required on private property (unless liquor is sold for consumption). While a posted "no firearms" sign gives notice, it is not the only type of notice needed.

    Was his OC'ing on private property the underlying cause for being asked to leave? Yes. Was he violating a "weapons misconduct" statute? No. Did the business owner have the right to ask him to leave? Yes. Was a "no firearms" sign required by state law to give notice? No.

    Fred

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    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
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    I did not see any indication that the deputies were acting under direction from the property owner. Did I miss it?
    "It's not important how many people I've killed. What's important is how I get along with the people who are still alive" - Jimmy the Tulip

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Being made to leave the building is not being treated with respect. If that was not done under threat of arrest, at the least it was accomplished under color of law.

    Would definitely follow through.
    If he did not actually have had an order ... then he is guilty of intimidation .. if a crime in the state, its usually a felony

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    Regular Member Rusty Young Man's Avatar
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    Welcome to sunny, dry Arizona, glassbysaam. Real sorry you had to go through that. Carry here (OC or otherwise) is usually a non-event. I sincerely wish it could have been the same for you.

    I realize you're not from AZ, and I don't know how often you visit OCDO, but if you see this, could you please clarify a few of the points others have made on this thread?

    1) did the sheriff dept officers ever say or imply they were executing the wishes of the owner?

    2) did the show provide you with or suggest they had a no-firearms policy?

    Hope that negative encounter doesn't mar your perception of AZ in the future.
    I carry to defend my loved ones; Desensitizing and educating are secondary & tertiary reasons. Anything else is unintended.

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    Quote Originally Posted by azcdlfred View Post
    Sorry to hear you were treated poorly. However, this is NOT a gun/weapon issue.

    This is a private property and trespassing issue. Regardless of whether a "no firearms" sign is posted or not, if the owner of private property, or their representative asks you to leave, that is their right.
    Why do you assume that either hotel or show management were involved at all, or even knew about it?

    Where police are hired for security details, we have multiple examples on this forum of them making up their own rules and acting of their own volition to enforce them.

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    Regular Member azcdlfred's Avatar
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    It used to be that the property owner had to request you to leave for "trespass." A few years ago, law enforcement requested and got the law changed to allow law enforcement to act on their own volition as a way to deal with Undocumenteded Democrats (Illegal Aliens) hiding out on private property. See ARS 13-1502.A.1.

    This year, HB 2581 has been filed to return control back to the property owner.

    Back to the situation discussed in this thread. Under current law, any law enforcement officer can request someone to leave private property whether the property owner requests it or not. They are not exceeding their authority under current Arizona law.

    Fred

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    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by azcdlfred View Post
    ...Back to the situation discussed in this thread. Under current law, any law enforcement officer can request someone to leave private property whether the property owner requests it or not. They are not exceeding their authority under current Arizona law.
    What if it turns out later that the property owner had no objections to the people being on his property?

    What if the property owner feels he lost business because the police acted on their own in such a matter?
    Last edited by MAC702; 02-14-2014 at 09:33 PM.
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    Regular Member Primus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MAC702 View Post
    What if it turns out later that the property owner had no objections to the people being on his property?

    What if the property owner feels he lost business because the police acted on their own in such a matter?
    Then that property owner would most likely not hire that detail anymore or specifically ask for that officers to not have the detail.

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    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Primus View Post
    Then that property owner would most likely not hire that detail anymore or specifically ask for that officers to not have the detail.
    You know, I forgot about the fact that some places can hire off duty cops as private security, complete with their uniforms and everything. If this was the case, then they were acting with property owner authority de facto.
    "It's not important how many people I've killed. What's important is how I get along with the people who are still alive" - Jimmy the Tulip

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    Regular Member Rusty Young Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by A.R.S. 13-1502
    Criminal trespass in the third degree; classification
    A. A person commits criminal trespass in the third degree by:
    1. Knowingly entering or remaining unlawfully on any real property after a reasonable request to leave by a law enforcement officer, the owner or any other person having lawful control over such property, or reasonable notice prohibiting entry.
    2. Knowingly entering or remaining unlawfully on the right-of-way for tracks, or the storage or switching yards or rolling stock of a railroad company.
    B. Pursuant to subsection A, paragraph 1 of this section, a request to leave by a law enforcement officer acting at the request of the owner of the property or any other person having lawful control over the property has the same legal effect as a request made by the property owner or other person having lawful control of the property.
    C. Criminal trespass in the third degree is a class 3 misdemeanor.
    I always thought it meant the officers had to receive explicit instruction from the owner to request armed LACs (or other "undesirables") to leave.
    Looking at the text again after reading this thread, I can see the intentional ambiguity in the wording of said statute above.
    I carry to defend my loved ones; Desensitizing and educating are secondary & tertiary reasons. Anything else is unintended.

    “Life, liberty, and property do not exist because men have made laws. On the contrary, it was the fact that life, liberty, and property existed beforehand that caused men to make laws in the first place.” - Frederic Bastiat

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    Regular Member azcdlfred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MAC702 View Post
    What if it turns out later that the property owner had no objections to the people being on his property? What if the property owner feels he lost business because the police acted on their own in such a matter?
    Key phrase in ARS 13-1502.A.1 is "unlawfully entering." If the business owner has a "no guns" policy and the cops are aware of it and they spot a person wearing a gun, they can initiate the "trespass" and ask the person to leave.

    In the situation at the Gem Show, odds are there was a policy in place by the Holiday Inn for the gem show that may or may not have been posted.

    If the Holiday Inn did not have any "no firearms" policy then the cops were exceeding their authority. This is the unintended consequences of a law making it easier to grab Undocumented Democrats allowing law enforcement to act in place of property owners.

    Same thing happened in 1997 when, at the request of law enforcement, "innocent until guilty" was abolished in self-defense situations and resulted in a retired school teacher becoming a convicted murderer when he defended himself against an unarmed attacker.

    Fred

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    Regular Member FreeInAZ's Avatar
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    Dear God! After reading through those documents, I am literally sick to my stomach. This could of happened to anyone. We as citizens need to VERY AWARE of what those we have entrusted our freedom to are doing with that power. This is a truly terrifying story of what appears to be a complete injustice.
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    Regular Member azcdlfred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FreeInAZ View Post
    Dear God! After reading through those documents, I am literally sick to my stomach. This could of happened to anyone. We as citizens need to VERY AWARE of what those we have entrusted our freedom to are doing with that power. This is a truly terrifying story of what appears to be a complete injustice.
    If you are talking about the Harold Fish case, it was a horrible injustice.

    AzCDL managed to get "innocent until proven guilty" restored, via legislation, during his trial, but the judge elected to use the old law and Harold was found guilty. It took us a few more years to get a bill passed that made the new law retroactive to Harold's (and others like his) case. Sadly he died not long after being released from prison.

    This is why "we" can't sit around with our collective thumbs in our ass waiting for a white knight to rescue us. Not working to defeat those who want to strip you of your rights is the same as supporting those same people.

    Join AzCDL!

    Fred

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    Regular Member FreeInAZ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by azcdlfred View Post
    If you are talking about the Harold Fish case, it was a horrible injustice.

    AzCDL managed to get "innocent until proven guilty" restored, via legislation, during his trial, but the judge elected to use the old law and Harold was found guilty. It took us a few more years to get a bill passed that made the new law retroactive to Harold's (and others like his) case. Sadly he died not long after being released from prison.

    This is why "we" can't sit around with our collective thumbs in our ass waiting for a white knight to rescue us. Not working to defeat those who want to strip you of your rights is the same as supporting those same people.

    Join AzCDL!

    Fred
    Yes I was talking about what Mr. Fish had to suffer through at the hands of what appeared to be: a bad prosecutor, a bad judge & bad investigators in this case. Hopefully most of them no longer serve "justice".

    Your point above is one more US citizens need to heed. If not, something just like what happened to Mr. Fish could happen to them also. Thank you Fred and all in AzCDL for helping secure our freedoms.
    Last edited by FreeInAZ; 02-15-2014 at 05:01 PM.
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    Regular Member Rusty Young Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by azcdlfred View Post
    If you are talking about the Harold Fish case, it was a horrible injustice.

    AzCDL managed to get "innocent until proven guilty" restored, via legislation, during his trial, but the judge elected to use the old law and Harold was found guilty. It took us a few more years to get a bill passed that made the new law retroactive to Harold's (and others like his) case. Sadly he died not long after being released from prison.

    This is why "we" can't sit around with our collective thumbs in our ass waiting for a white knight to rescue us. Not working to defeat those who want to strip you of your rights is the same as supporting those same people.

    Join AzCDL!

    Fred
    I'm not even done reading and my food doesn't exactly want to go down as it should.
    1) HOW can so many people in the "justice" system be that corrupt (morally and otherwise?
    2) HOW could they be allowed to work against a LAC who defended himself from someone with a history of commiting rape and other acts of violence?
    3) HOW are people so ignorant about something as fundamental as jury nullification?
    HOW could this happen?
    I carry to defend my loved ones; Desensitizing and educating are secondary & tertiary reasons. Anything else is unintended.

    “Life, liberty, and property do not exist because men have made laws. On the contrary, it was the fact that life, liberty, and property existed beforehand that caused men to make laws in the first place.” - Frederic Bastiat

    "When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall one by one, an unpitied sacrifice in a contemptible struggle." - Edmund Burke

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