visitor- open carry - escorted out of Holliday Inn??

glassbysaam · Feb 11, 2014

Hello
I am visiting AZ for a couple weeks, I am from Missouri. I hold a CCW permit from Missouri. My wife and I are here for the Gem and Mineral shows each year. I was in the Holliday Inn show yesterday and had some sheriff dept officers converge on me and tell me that open carry was not allowed in the Gem Show, I thought they meant just in that "ball room" where I was waiting for a dealer to return to his booth, I offered to stand outside in the hall way of the Holliday Inn and was told that I had to leave the building. I offered to untuck my shirt and cover my weapon , that still was not good enough , I had to leave the building. I never saw any posting banning guns, and had never heard of a no gun policy at any of the Gem Shows. I have carried open at the Jogs show, the gem mall , Kino[TEP] show and had never had any security show any interest.

I am just posting as an observation. I was treated with respect and just had to leave the building. I will return today with my weapon concealed.

sam

DocWalker · Feb 11, 2014

Ask for a written copy of their firearm policy from the gem show and the Holiday Inn. If they can't produce one and have none then file a complaint with the department for stupid cops that have no clue.

Grapeshot · Feb 11, 2014

glassbysaam said:
--snipped--

I am just posting as an observation. I was treated with respect and just had to leave the building. I will return today with my weapon concealed.
sam

Being made to leave the building is not being treated with respect. If that was not done under threat of arrest, at the least it was accomplished under color of law.

Would definitely follow through.

FreeInAZ · Feb 11, 2014

Was the hotel or the show entrances posted? Also what city/county was this in? Maricopa sheriff's are well aware of OC & it's legality. Wonder if some hotel DICK didn't call and tell them to remove you? Sorry to hear of your troubles. While having your permit is good, it should not have been needed. You are covered under AZ constitutional carry, unless they were serving alcohol by the glass for consumption at the gem show

or it was posted no firearms.

azcdlfred · Feb 11, 2014

Sorry to hear you were treated poorly. However, this is NOT a gun/weapon issue.

This is a private property and trespassing issue. Regardless of whether a "no firearms" sign is posted or not, if the owner of private property, or their representative asks you to leave, that is their right. That fact that the police are already involved, if you had refused, they could have "trespassed" you and then arrested you.

I've never seen any Gem Show venues posted, but that does not mean the management cannot ask you to leave without posting.

Fred

FreeInAZ · Feb 11, 2014

We may not hear from the OP since he does not post often. OP, Fred is spot on. My comments were geared towards you being from a state were signs may not carry any legal weight, they do in AZ... for better or for worse...private property rights prevail as do [public/municipal: land /buildings/events forbidding carry,...particularly troubling to many...myself included]. AZ- a great gun rights/human rights state...perfect...no.

@OP hope the rest of your stay is uneventful and enjoyable.

azcdlfred · Feb 11, 2014

FreeInAZ said:
as do [public/municipal: land /buildings/events forbidding carry,...particularly troubling to many...myself included].

Check out our Bill Tracking page. There are a couple of bills there that push on this issue.

As an AzCDL exclusive to my friends here on Open Carry, AzCDL's February 2014 Newsletter has been posted at our website for your viewing pleasure.

Inside you'll find a list of the current bills pending at the Legislature.

Check out our latest raffle on page 4!

Fred

glassbysaam · Feb 11, 2014

good afternoon,
We have been wondering around the Tucson Area looking at other gem and mineral venues today.
The incident was at the Tucson Holiday Inn . I did NOT see any signs posted, BUT there is a lounge serving liquor by the glass in the same building as the motel/ meeting room complex. While I realize the lounge to be off limits I would have thought that the meeting rooms/ ball rooms and hotel rooms would be separate . The officers words were "We do not allow open carry in the gem show" and all the security at that show is the county sheriffs department.

We start setting up for the convention show tomorrow morning , so may not get to that venue [holiday Inn] again before we leave. But if I do I will carry concealed and ask for written policy of the gem show promoters.

Thanks to all that responded, I am very comfortable with your 2A stance in this state, and enjoy being here in the sun, it is20 degrees for a high today back in Missouri.

Thanks again
Sam from Missouri

FreeInAZ · Feb 11, 2014

You're welcome Sam. And thanks Fred for the info packed posts. :thumbup:

OC for ME · Feb 12, 2014

azcdlfred said:
Sorry to hear you were treated poorly. However, this is NOT a gun/weapon issue.

This is a private property and trespassing issue. Regardless of whether a "no firearms" sign is posted or not, if the owner of private property, or their representative asks you to leave, that is their right. That fact that the police are already involved, if you had refused, they could have "trespassed" you and then arrested you.

I've never seen any Gem Show venues posted, but that does not mean the management cannot ask you to leave without posting.

Fred

Yes it is a gun/weapon issue. His OCing is what got him booted. If the venue is not posted, and "management" did not kick him out, the cops exceeded their authority, unlawfully so it seems. The trespassing issue is secondary as some cops use this charge to intimidate OCers where they can.

Grape is right.

azcdlfred · Feb 12, 2014

OC for ME said:
Yes it is a gun/weapon issue. His OCing is what got him booted. If the venue is not posted, and "management" did not kick him out, the cops exceeded their authority, unlawfully so it seems. The trespassing issue is secondary as some cops use this charge to intimidate OCers where they can. Grape is right.

Yes, his gun is what got their attention, but from a state statute perspective this is not a firearms law issue.

It falls under the trespassing laws and in Arizona a posted "no firearms" notice is not required on private property (unless liquor is sold for consumption). While a posted "no firearms" sign gives notice, it is not the only type of notice needed.

Was his OC'ing on private property the underlying cause for being asked to leave? Yes. Was he violating a "weapons misconduct" statute? No. Did the business owner have the right to ask him to leave? Yes. Was a "no firearms" sign required by state law to give notice? No.

Fred

MAC702 · Feb 12, 2014

I did not see any indication that the deputies were acting under direction from the property owner. Did I miss it?

davidmcbeth · Feb 12, 2014

Grapeshot said:
Being made to leave the building is not being treated with respect. If that was not done under threat of arrest, at the least it was accomplished under color of law.

Would definitely follow through.

If he did not actually have had an order ... then he is guilty of intimidation .. if a crime in the state, its usually a felony

Rusty Young Man · Feb 12, 2014

Welcome to sunny, dry Arizona, glassbysaam. Real sorry you had to go through that. Carry here (OC or otherwise) is usually a non-event. I sincerely wish it could have been the same for you.

I realize you're not from AZ, and I don't know how often you visit OCDO, but if you see this, could you please clarify a few of the points others have made on this thread?

1) did the sheriff dept officers ever say or imply they were executing the wishes of the owner?

2) did the show provide you with or suggest they had a no-firearms policy?

Hope that negative encounter doesn't mar your perception of AZ in the future.

KBCraig · Feb 13, 2014

azcdlfred said:
Sorry to hear you were treated poorly. However, this is NOT a gun/weapon issue.

This is a private property and trespassing issue. Regardless of whether a "no firearms" sign is posted or not, if the owner of private property, or their representative asks you to leave, that is their right.

Why do you assume that either hotel or show management were involved at all, or even knew about it?

Where police are hired for security details, we have multiple examples on this forum of them making up their own rules and acting of their own volition to enforce them.

azcdlfred · Feb 14, 2014

It used to be that the property owner had to request you to leave for "trespass." A few years ago, law enforcement requested and got the law changed to allow law enforcement to act on their own volition as a way to deal with Undocumenteded Democrats (Illegal Aliens) hiding out on private property. See ARS 13-1502.A.1.

This year, HB 2581 has been filed to return control back to the property owner.

Back to the situation discussed in this thread. Under current law, any law enforcement officer can request someone to leave private property whether the property owner requests it or not. They are not exceeding their authority under current Arizona law.

Fred

MAC702 · Feb 14, 2014

azcdlfred said:
...Back to the situation discussed in this thread. Under current law, any law enforcement officer can request someone to leave private property whether the property owner requests it or not. They are not exceeding their authority under current Arizona law.

What if it turns out later that the property owner had no objections to the people being on his property?

What if the property owner feels he lost business because the police acted on their own in such a matter?

Primus · Feb 14, 2014

MAC702 said:
What if it turns out later that the property owner had no objections to the people being on his property?

What if the property owner feels he lost business because the police acted on their own in such a matter?

Then that property owner would most likely not hire that detail anymore or specifically ask for that officers to not have the detail.

Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk

MAC702 · Feb 14, 2014

Primus said:
Then that property owner would most likely not hire that detail anymore or specifically ask for that officers to not have the detail.

You know, I forgot about the fact that some places can hire off duty cops as private security, complete with their uniforms and everything. If this was the case, then they were acting with property owner authority de facto.

Rusty Young Man · Feb 15, 2014

A.R.S. 13-1502 said:
Criminal trespass in the third degree; classification
A. A person commits criminal trespass in the third degree by:
1. Knowingly entering or remaining unlawfully on any real property after a reasonable request to leave by a law enforcement officer, the owner or any other person having lawful control over such property, or reasonable notice prohibiting entry.
2. Knowingly entering or remaining unlawfully on the right-of-way for tracks, or the storage or switching yards or rolling stock of a railroad company.
B. Pursuant to subsection A, paragraph 1 of this section, a request to leave by a law enforcement officer acting at the request of the owner of the property or any other person having lawful control over the property has the same legal effect as a request made by the property owner or other person having lawful control of the property.
C. Criminal trespass in the third degree is a class 3 misdemeanor.

I always thought it meant the officers had to receive explicit instruction from the owner to request armed LACs (or other "undesirables") to leave.
Looking at the text again after reading this thread, I can see the intentional ambiguity in the wording of said statute above.

visitor- open carry - escorted out of Holliday Inn??

New member

Regular Member

Legendary Warrior

Regular Member

Regular Member

Regular Member

Regular Member

New member

Regular Member

Regular Member

Regular Member

Campaign Veteran

Banned

Regular Member

Regular Member

Regular Member

Campaign Veteran

Regular Member

Campaign Veteran

Regular Member