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Thread: Equipment Question

  1. #1
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    Equipment Question

    My arguments elsewhere about whether or not it's a good idea to OC in the middle of Seattle aside, I have questions about OC in the countryside. This is genuinely something I am considering. I am spending more time these days in the deep back country, where rattlesnakes and cougars are not theoretical issues. Now, you rarely have to do anything other than get out of a rattler's way, and shooting at one could wind up being somewhere between inadvisable and idiotic (hit your own foot, miss and hit a rock). But a cougar, well, it's either shoot the fella or fight him off manually, and I'd rather use Door #1.

    My issue is this: I'm paranoid about carrying a loaded weapon in a holster while hiking. You know, bump it against a rock, or the truck, or my swinging arm, or fall over, and it goes off. And there I am, 75 miles from even the nearest town and even farther from a town with a hospital, and in the very best of circumstances feeling really stupid.

    My idea is to carry the holstered gun separately from the clip. In the case of wild critters, well, if a cougar jumps out of a tree or off a ledge and goes straight onto your neck (very rare type of attack, by the way), it ain't gonna matter whether you're carrying a gun that's loaded or one that takes a couple of seconds to load. Just about every cougar attack I've ever heard about comes with enough warning to put a clip into a pistol. So: Do holsters come in varieties that hold a weapon and a separate clip? Are these common?

    Secondly, what's a good handgun that'll bring down a 180-pound cat, with limited recoil and good accuracy once I've been to the range? With the proviso that money doesn't completely burn a hole in my pocket, I am very willing to pay top dollar if there's good reason. This is not a weapon I expect to use more than a few times, if ever, other than to practice, but it's got to work perfectly the first time. And yes, if I do this I'd get trained and do plenty of practice. So "first time" means first time on the trail.

    Thanks, folks.
    Last edited by Around Here; 02-13-2014 at 02:17 PM.

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    Bwahaha! Phobias beyond mere hoplophobia, ailurophobia and ophidiophobia.

    I must not fear.
    Fear is the mind-killer.
    Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
    I will face my fear.
    I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
    And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
    Where the fear has gone there will be nothing.
    Only I will remain.

    I have scared many more wildcats and rattlesnakes than have scared me - oh, and bears too.
    Last edited by Nightmare; 02-13-2014 at 02:20 PM.
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    Well, looky at who's back for another episode of "Internet Dutch Rudder".

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    Unless the OP is a troll he sounds a lot like one excuse me it I am wrong.

    I'll try and answer some on this.

    One you really need to get some professional training to over come you unrealistic fears about what can or could happen while carrying your hand gun.

    I carried a hand gun for decades in the out doors( hundreds of miles back packing) and on the job I shot maybe a half a dozen rattle stakes with one I shot black bears from 230 lbs to over 500lbs I have shot dozens of deer hunting and those hit by cars many in the 180lb range. (Dam those big bucks seem to get hit right before deer season) I shot hundreds of smaller critter with handgun. I seen more then I want to people shot.

    With proper training and equipment one just need to take the normal precautions and one well be as safe as one can nothing is 100 percent safe. Every thing we do has some risk.

    If your looking for a good woods out door hand gun a 357,41, or 44 mag revolver comes to mine with proper ammo they well do all you want. In my 357 for General protection I carry 125JHPs for a bit more penetration I carry 145gr JHPs if I think I am going to run into larger then saw 300lb critters a good 165 WFN hard cast will work fine.

    I normally only carry my 41 and 44s only for hunting and large critter protection, I carry a heavy for caliber WFN hard cast in them.

    Heres my thoughts on ammo from a different thread here.

    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...n&goto=newpost

    One can and should look at actual shootings if one can find them or other test methods that give some one a idea how a bullet preforms when striking certain objects.

    Bullet development because of the F--ked up Miami FBI shooting (cause more by poor tactics and lousy shooting) then bullet failure has given us big improvements in the way bullets react.

    I well gladly carry any of the major manufactures hollow points for defense against two legged and four legged predators of the same relative size. These bullets are designed to work in certain parameters and with in them they all tend to work well.

    When I am hunting or carrying for use against larger critters I carry a different type of bullet I prefer a WFN hard cast in my hand guns and all the velocity I can get out of them. Not that you can't use a 45acp 40S@W but there are better choices. Heavy for caliber at max vel seems to work well with them> I saw a 250 black bear shot with a 315gr WFN at 1300fps 44mag taken in the chest and bullet exited the rear ham 40 plus inches of penetration he was DRT. I have drove 41mag hard cast WFN side to side through some fairly big bears.

    Would I use them for self defense against people if that's what I had in my gun at the time yes but realizing they are going through and then some.

    There is no perfect bullet I carry the best I can come up with in the most likely situation I can think at that time.

    I found that a 165gr rem golden saber does and excellent job on squirrels and porcupines that were chewing on my cabin. A 22rf would have been more appropriate I used what I had.
    Last edited by Firearms Iinstuctor; 02-13-2014 at 03:00 PM.
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    It Was A Real Quedtion

    Not trolling at all. If I was "phobic" I wouldn't have asked.

    Thanks for the ideas about which guns. So people don't carry the clip and the weapon separately, then? I don't think it's unrealistic to worry about accidental discharge. Semms to be a steady trickle of stories about that, although mostly it seems to be when kids happen upon a firearms and play with it. Zero chance of that with me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Around Here View Post
    Not trolling at all. If I was "phobic" I wouldn't have asked.

    Thanks for the ideas about which guns. So people don't carry the clip and the weapon separately, then? I don't think it's unrealistic to worry about accidental discharge. Semms to be a steady trickle of stories about that, although mostly it seems to be when kids happen upon a firearms and play with it. Zero chance of that with me.
    A magazine and a gun seperated are but fancy paper weights.

    Regularly "worrying" about a negligent discharge is certainly an unproductive waste of time. Handle the gun properly and that won't happen.

    Don't know why anyone would make self-defense more difficult than it is. We are already behind the time line when the SHTF.
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    Regular Member Primus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Around Here View Post
    Not trolling at all. If I was "phobic" I wouldn't have asked.

    Thanks for the ideas about which guns. So people don't carry the clip and the weapon separately, then? I don't think it's unrealistic to worry about accidental discharge. Semms to be a steady trickle of stories about that, although mostly it seems to be when kids happen upon a firearms and play with it. Zero chance of that with me.
    Another option is to carry with magazine in the firearm but no round in the chamber. Condition 3 now this is designed for 1911s but the point is the same.... magazine in no round chambered hammer down.

    IF you do that... make sure you spend a lot of time at range practicing drawing then racking said slide. This obviously only if you decide to use semi auto. If you use revolver then this doesn't apply.

    Wouldn't recommend not having any magazine in the firearm. When you get attacked is not the time to be fumbling and trying to draw magazine draw gun and combine two then rack.....

    Take a class. Shoot a lot at the range .. and let us know how it works out.



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    Not the point. Guns are the phobic's security against sneak attack by catamounts and rattlesnakes. When the phobic realizes that he has been attacked then it's too late to rack a round. Like the old saw, "The doctor said you're gonna die!"
    Last edited by Nightmare; 02-13-2014 at 04:01 PM.
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  9. #9
    Regular Member Primus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    Not the point. Guns are the phobic's security against sneak attack by catamounts and rattlesnakes. When the phobic realizes that he has been attacked then it's too late to rack a round. Like the old saw, "The doctor said you're gonna die!"
    Maybe.

    But what's better? Tell thus guy to carry all or nothing? Or help him find a middle ground and steer him the right way?

    Even better.. he gets attacked by anything.. better to have a gun he needs to rack? Or no gun because he is isn't comfortable enough yet to carry loaded?

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  10. #10
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    I second the suggestion to get further training, so you're more familiar with guns, their capabilities, the terminology, and your abilities.

    Quote Originally Posted by Around Here
    I'm paranoid about carrying a loaded weapon in a holster while hiking.
    You know, bump it against a rock, or the truck, or my swinging arm, or fall over, and it goes off.
    If your pistol discharges that easily, you need a better pistol.

    Maybe go with a model that's been used as a duty gun for police &/or military. That way you know it takes abuse and is reliable, and won't do any of the low-quality things you're fantasizing about.

    For example, I know that one of the tests for the pistol brand I carry (widely used around the world by police & military) is dropping it 2 meters onto a steel plate.
    They don't discharge unless the trigger is pressed.
    (And yes, there have been some people who don't pay attention and get clothing in the trigger area when holstering, and end up with a ND.)

    My idea is to carry the holstered gun separately from the clip.
    How do you holster a rifle?

    Do holsters come in varieties that hold a weapon and a separate clip?
    I have a holster which holds my pistol & a spare magazine. Had no trouble finding it at a gun show, & it's a common brand which should be easy to find at stores or online.
    I have seen separate pouches to wear on the belt which would hold a speed loader, which you might be able to use with a moon clip if you go with a revolver.

    what's a good handgun that'll bring down a 180-pound cat
    Pretty much anything that would bring down an average-size person.
    As others have said, stay with an effective caliber (i.e., not a .22) & use hollowpoints.
    Last edited by MKEgal; 02-13-2014 at 04:25 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    Not the point. Guns are the phobic's security against sneak attack by catamounts and rattlesnakes. When the phobic realizes that he has been attacked then it's too late to rack a round. Like the old saw, "The doctor said you're gonna die!"
    I'm in the back country pretty often. Cougars are really the only critters that might do a sneak attack too quick to insert a magazine. But any cougar attack that was that fast would also be too fast to get the weapon out of the holster. It'd be a cougar that attacked from a hidden position above (most likely a tree or a ledge) and went straight for the neck. In most cases, a cougar attack happens differently, and there'll be a showdown with enough time to do what I'd mentioned.

    That much said, Primus's answer sounds good, i.e. have the magazine in the gun but not having a round in the chamber. Look, folks, it's a serious question. And in a different thread I identified myself as "not a gun owner," which is why I didn't think of Primus's obvious solution. I'm surely taking a lot of crap here because I don't like the idea of OC in the middle of the city, but this is a different question and it's real. So to those who are helping, thanks.

    p.s.: Some posts crossed. The one with the picture of the cougar and description of the circumstances is pretty convincing, actually. As for the comments about rattlers, yes, of course not in February. Guess what? Time marches on, and for better or for worse I don't live entirely in the moment like, say, a dog. I'm thinking ahead. Terrible, ain't it?
    Last edited by Around Here; 02-13-2014 at 04:39 PM.

  12. #12
    Regular Member Fuller Malarkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Around Here View Post
    SNIPPED

    As for the comments about rattlers, yes, of course not in February. Guess what? Time marches on, and for better or for worse I don't live entirely in the moment like, say, a dog. I'm thinking ahead. Terrible, ain't it?
    As predicted, goalposts moved.

    I'm suspecting sock puppet.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fuller Malarkey View Post
    As predicted, goalposts moved.

    I'm suspecting sock puppet.
    How did I move any goalposts? All I did was tell someone that of course I wasn't thinking about shooting a snake right now. I don't go into the back country at this time of year. I do it in the late spring to mid-fall. I'm asking now because I'm starting make back-country plans for later this year. If those plans include getting a gun, I'll need lead time to shop and get training. It's not something I'd do quickly, especially seeing as how I'd be a brand spankin' new gun owner.

    My answer didn't change. And what's this "sock puppet" stuff? Whoever runs this site and collects i.p. addresses can verify that there's only one sign-on from my i.p. address. Frankly, if I wanted to go the so-called "sock puppet" route, I'd have done it in exactly the reverse of the way you're implying. I'd have created a new account without any of the baggage from the one go-'round about OC in Seattle. And I only mentioned any of that because I figured others here would anyway, so I might as well deal with it right up front.

    "Fuller Malarkey" sounds about right.
    Last edited by Around Here; 02-13-2014 at 06:26 PM.

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    Silly answer: Avoid the bars where they congregate, and you'll almost entirely eliminate cougar attacks.


    Now that's out of the way, IMO a stainless revolver with ~6" barrel, chambered in .357 and carried in a hunters style chest rig with extra ammo (if you wish to carry such) in an accessible pouch, might be worth looking into.


    The reasons behind my suggestions are as follows:


    Stainless revolver: such a configuration would be powerful enough to knock down what needs to be, the weight would absorb most of the recoil, and much less chance of a malfunction when needed the most vs. a semiauto. Given the most likely location for the hikes (PNW), there will likely be more than a hint of humidity, so stainless has less of a chance to rust.


    Hunters Chest rig: easier to access than one carried on a hip while wearing a backpack, as well as more comfortable in same situation.

    No matter what you choose, best of luck in your search.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Around Here View Post
    I'm in the back country pretty often. Cougars are really the only critters that might do a sneak attack too quick to insert a magazine. But any cougar attack that was that fast would also be too fast to get the weapon out of the holster. It'd be a cougar that attacked from a hidden position above (most likely a tree or a ledge) and went straight for the neck. In most cases, a cougar attack happens differently, and there'll be a showdown with enough time to do what I'd mentioned.
    Very True

    I have studied many cougar and bear attacks from the time I read my first time back in the 60's. A lot of people seem to think that most cougar and bear attacks are sudden.

    But with many you have plenty of warning to get a weapon in hand. A trained person can easily get a shot on target in 1.5 seconds a very well practiced one can do better then that. With many variables involved.

    I always carry my semi auto defensive hand guns with a round chambered and my revolvers have all the chambers loaded ( I have no old single actions).

    In many defensive shooting split seconds can count I don't want to be caught with a empty chamber. The first defensive shooting in Wis. after CCW pass involved a person carrying with out a round in the chamber for safety purposes. If you watch the video one see him trying to shoot the gun with out placing a round in the chamber. he realized it then racks one in. Lucky for him the BG wasn't paying attention giving him more time to do so.

    In an after action interview he stated he no longer carries that way.

    Good training, good equipment takes away a lot of the uncertainties of carrying.
    Last edited by Firearms Iinstuctor; 02-13-2014 at 05:25 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Around Here View Post
    My issue is this: I'm paranoid about carrying a loaded weapon in a holster while hiking. You know, bump it against a rock, or the truck, or my swinging arm, or fall over, and it goes off. And there I am, 75 miles from even the nearest town and even farther from a town with a hospital, and in the very best of circumstances feeling really stupid.
    How many times do you hear of an ND in the news or pro-gun rights sites? All the time. And all the time, some idiot gun owner/operator has their finger on the trigger. Guns don't "just go off" unless there's a serious flaw in the gun's design.

    A proper holster that guards the trigger and retains will work.

    Also, I've grown up in WA. I've hiked here and there and camped across the state. At no time have I ever seen a wild animal that could pose a threat to me. I've been in bear country- serious bear country- and never saw anything dangerous.

    And like others on here, I do think you're not who you say you are. You sound much like a common anti-gun person- or at least someone who has that agenda- with your questions and statements. If you really are a noob to guns, it sure doesn't come across that way. But I wouldn't be surprised if an "expose" comes out in The Stranger or whatever titled "My Month Amongst The Gun People."

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    Quote Originally Posted by mikeyb View Post
    How many times do you hear of an ND in the news or pro-gun rights sites? All the time. And all the time, some idiot gun owner/operator has their finger on the trigger. Guns don't "just go off" unless there's a serious flaw in the gun's design. A proper holster that guards the trigger and retains will work.
    That's reassuring. It's probably a comfort issue.

    Quote Originally Posted by mikeyb View Post
    Also, I've grown up in WA. I've hiked here and there and camped across the state. At no time have I ever seen a wild animal that could pose a threat to me. I've been in bear country- serious bear country- and never saw anything dangerous.
    I have some friends out in the country in central Oregon, and cougars are no longer rare there. I don't want to overplay it, but Oregon's ban on hunting them with dogs (for which we can thank the animal rights twits in Portland, 99.9% of whom have never been east of Multnomah Falls) has caused quite the resurgence. This isn't theoretical. Both of my friends have seen them on their property, and I saw one at one of their places. The one upside of favoring cougars has been a drop of one-third in the deer population, which was way too big. But I am thinking of arming myself in the back country for that reason.

    Quote Originally Posted by mikeyb View Post
    And like others on here, I do think you're not who you say you are. You sound much like a common anti-gun person- or at least someone who has that agenda- with your questions and statements. If you really are a noob to guns, it sure doesn't come across that way. But I wouldn't be surprised if an "expose" comes out in The Stranger or whatever titled "My Month Amongst The Gun People."
    I don't know what I can say to convince you. Probably nothing, given that this is the Internet where no one knows you're a dog. I suspect the more I tried to convince you, the less convincing I'd be. I'm not a complete "noob" to guns, but close. Shot BB guns all the time as a kid, but my folks in the city wouldn't let us get anything more powerful. Went to a range and fired a few slugs from a shotgun, and enjoyed it a lot. That's the sum total of my gun experience. It explains my ignorance of details, and what's likely too much caution. But hey, when I don't know, and know I don't know, I am usually on the cautious side. And that goes double for guns, because of their lethal potential.

    That much said, the various characterizations of me as a "phobe" are laughable. To respect guns is much different than to fear guns. As for being an imposter or trying to bait you, well, it just ain't so. That's pretty much all I can say, really.
    Last edited by Around Here; 02-13-2014 at 05:58 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Around Here View Post
    [ ... ]This isn't theoretical. Both of my friends have seen them on their property, and I saw one at one of their places. [ ... ]
    Gaawd! And survived? Why then, but need to be armed against catamount panthers in the future?

    Tell us about your eXtreme rattlesnake experiences too!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    Gaawd! And survived? Why then, but need to be armed against catamount panthers in the future?

    Tell us about your eXtreme rattlesnake experiences too!
    I wouldn't consider arming myself against snakes if they were the only thing out there. In fact, even if I were carrying and ran across a rattler, I doubt I'd shoot it. Your average rattler scoots right out of there. The average rattler bite happens to a drunken 20-something dude who thinks he's going to pick one up. Most of the rest to climbers and hikers who grab or turn over the wrong rock without looking. The implications for routinely shooting rattlesnakes are pretty obvious.

    My mentions of cougars above are only part of what I've run into. I don't want to get frenzied about it. and I'm not quakin' in my boots. But they're a real issue where I go. They have a tendency to look for weak animals or people, and my other half doesn't walk all that well but still likes the back country, so that's the worry. Doesn't really matter to me if you believe it. I mentioned it only by way of mentioning my requirement for a weapon.
    Last edited by Around Here; 02-13-2014 at 06:21 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Around Here View Post
    [ ... ] Cougars, on the other hand, are quite a real issue where I go. Laugh if you want.
    LOL Many state, most, prohibit guns where cougars go.

    I've had three close encounters of the awesome kind with cougars.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    LOL Many state, most, prohibit guns where cougars go.
    Ah, the moment I've been waiting for. I finally get to tell someone on a gun website that he doesn't know WTF he's talking about. Congrats!

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    Hmm

    I'm really not here for the word games, so I'm going to back out and will occasionally lurk to see who else takes it seriously. Many thanks to those who offered actual suggestions that I can use.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Around Here View Post
    I'm really not here for the word games, so I'm going to back out and will occasionally lurk to see who else takes it seriously. Many thanks to those who offered actual suggestions that I can use.
    IOW "Moving on."

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  24. #24
    Regular Member Primus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Around Here View Post
    I'm really not here for the word games, so I'm going to back out and will occasionally lurk to see who else takes it seriously. Many thanks to those who offered actual suggestions that I can use.
    Don't take offense... the cadre are pretty aggressive with the "toe the line" mentality. Apparently with your example they appear to be hyper sensitive to "trolls".

    Sucks IF you are being earnest and looking for answers/help. Some as you have seen are willing to help.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Around Here View Post
    This isn't theoretical. Both of my friends have seen them on their property, and I saw one at one of their places.
    Cougar attacks on humans are extremely rare. In North America, roughly 25 fatalities and 95 nonfatal attacks have been reported during the past 100 years.
    Source: Washington Department of Fish & Wildlife

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