Criminals Target OC'ers

marshaul said:

I have no doubt that for every OCer who has been "targeted" for being armed, there are a few hundred CCers who have been targeted for (apparently) not being armed.

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The only ones who have every targeted me for OC were cops, idiots, and people saying thank you for OC.

MamaLiberty said:

LOL! I WAS "open carrying"...

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Not if you had a coat on over it.

the biggest mistake you make,with OCing, is the HOPE that the guy who is going to rob you sees the your gun. the HOPE that hes smart enough to do a little recon before their attack. im pretty sure obamas motto was HOPE. saying the enemy is going to do something crushes your "situational awareness" argument, due to the fact that in your head you are making yourself believe the sight of a gun is going to deter a crime. so it puts your mind at ease. the gun has to be seen first. you must forget the fact criminals suffer from tunnel vision to. if he is focused on your head so you dont turn to see him comming at you, do you think hes going to see a gun on your hip? i have OCed before. i have had instances where i was standing in line and no one saw my gun. or only a few did after i turned. i would even carry a double spare mag pouch on the opposite side!!

g21sfpistol said:

the biggest mistake you make,with OCing, is the HOPE that the guy who is going to rob you sees the your gun. the HOPE that hes smart enough to do a little recon before their attack. im pretty sure obamas motto was HOPE. saying the enemy is going to do something crushes your "situational awareness" argument, due to the fact that in your head you are making yourself believe the sight of a gun is going to deter a crime. so it puts your mind at ease. the gun has to be seen first. you must forget the fact criminals suffer from tunnel vision to. if he is focused on your head so you dont turn to see him comming at you, do you think hes going to see a gun on your hip? i have OCed before. i have had instances where i was standing in line and no one saw my gun. or only a few did after i turned. i would even carry a double spare mag pouch on the opposite side!!

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All I can say is there is a nugget of truth in here somewhere.

I say this because if you read the of experience threads on here and the vast amounts of posts about guys going about their day, there is ONE common theme. No one notices the gun. Its always the same. "Went to wall mart today. Uneventful no one noticed. " or... "went to such and such place. Had one person stop and we chatted about guns".

Even when I OC around here on occasion most people don't even see it. And guns are "scary" around here.

Moral is people are sheep. The robbers or wolves are usually just mean and a bit dumber versions of sheep. The smart ones don't rob convenience stores for 100 bucks.

So there probably is some truth to the dummy trying to rob some smokes would never even notice the purdy gun unless it was really shiny or in a drop leg.

So maybe this is a reason to have prettier guns?

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g21sfpistol said:

the biggest mistake you make,with OCing, is the HOPE that the guy who is going to rob you sees the your gun. the HOPE that hes smart enough to do a little recon before their attack. im pretty sure obamas motto was HOPE. saying the enemy is going to do something crushes your "situational awareness" argument, due to the fact that in your head you are making yourself believe the sight of a gun is going to deter a crime. so it puts your mind at ease. the gun has to be seen first. you must forget the fact criminals suffer from tunnel vision to. if he is focused on your head so you dont turn to see him comming at you, do you think hes going to see a gun on your hip? i have OCed before. i have had instances where i was standing in line and no one saw my gun. or only a few did after i turned. i would even carry a double spare mag pouch on the opposite side!!

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Oh, this is really funny.

So, what's your beef? If the criminal attacks, you respond. Irrelevant if you cc or oc. If they don't notice, makes no difference then. You have to be ready to act, irregardless. You are responsible for you, and smart people don't make decisions completely on the "hope" of someone else's response in any case. Carrying openly is a matter of preference, convenience, principle and sometimes opportunity.

But the fact is that seeing a gun on a potential victim really does make a difference, however or whenever they see it - usually resulting in no need to draw it. I'm living proof. And the "living" part of that is important.

Carry as you will. No skin off my nose.

g21sfpistol said:

the biggest mistake you make,with OCing, is the HOPE that the guy who is going to rob you sees the your gun. the HOPE that hes smart enough to do a little recon before their attack. im pretty sure obamas motto was HOPE. saying the enemy is going to do something crushes your "situational awareness" argument, due to the fact that in your head you are making yourself believe the sight of a gun is going to deter a crime. so it puts your mind at ease. the gun has to be seen first. you must forget the fact criminals suffer from tunnel vision to. if he is focused on your head so you dont turn to see him comming at you, do you think hes going to see a gun on your hip? i have OCed before. i have had instances where i was standing in line and no one saw my gun. or only a few did after i turned. i would even carry a double spare mag pouch on the opposite side!!

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Now you're conflating OC'ers with liberals? You have a funny way of making friends.

If the bad guys don't see the gun, it's the same as having it concealed. So that removes the "tactical" advantage that CC'ers claim. In that case the tactical advantage inarguably goes to the OC'er since the draw is faster than CC.

I think you're arguing against yourself now.

Primus said:

All I can say is there is a nugget of truth in here somewhere.

I say this because if you read the of experience threads on here and the vast amounts of posts about guys going about their day, there is ONE common theme. No one notices the gun. Its always the same. "Went to wall mart today. Uneventful no one noticed. " or... "went to such and such place. Had one person stop and we chatted about guns".

Even when I OC around here on occasion most people don't even see it. And guns are "scary" around here.

Moral is people are sheep. The robbers or wolves are usually just mean and a bit dumber versions of sheep. The smart ones don't rob convenience stores for 100 bucks.

So there probably is some truth to the dummy trying to rob some smokes would never even notice the purdy gun unless it was really shiny or in a drop leg.

So maybe this is a reason to have prettier guns?

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i wrote that just to get people to go out and buy new guns. i believe i tried to state what you just stated in one of the 3 closed down threads i posted on. it was basically by passed by nonsence. im glad you see through the bs. coming from combat expericene, i do not want to bank on my "enemy" aka bad guy (so i dont get labled a killer again). so having that train of thought, "the gun is a crime deterrent," leaves you at a disadvantage already. BY the same token with the element of surpise argument with CCers, i wouldnt bank on the fact that you would always surprise your attacker and he would surrender. more often than not the "surprise" is going to work more than the "deterrent." the gun has to be seen in order for the deterrent to work.

i would suggest chrome plating all your OC guns and attach red flags to them that have pictures of guns on it.

MamaLiberty said:

Oh, this is really funny.

So, what's your beef? If the criminal attacks, you respond. Irrelevant if you cc or oc. If they don't notice, makes no difference then. You have to be ready to act, irregardless. You are responsible for you, and smart people don't make decisions completely on the "hope" of someone else's response in any case. Carrying openly is a matter of preference, convenience, principle and sometimes opportunity.

But the fact is that seeing a gun on a potential victim really does make a difference, however or whenever they see it - usually resulting in no need to draw it. I'm living proof. And the "living" part of that is important.

Carry as you will. No skin off my nose.

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they key word im arguing is "seeing" if you detered someone from hurting you GREAT. im am seriously glad. now do what i would call an after action report. what can you do differently? and since your alive you can as yourself the "what if" so what if they wouldnt have seen your gun?

Running Wolf said:

Now you're conflating OC'ers with liberals? You have a funny way of making friends.

If the bad guys don't see the gun, it's the same as having it concealed. So that removes the "tactical" advantage that CC'ers claim. In that case the tactical advantage inarguably goes to the OC'er since the draw is faster than CC.

I think you're arguing against yourself now.

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im not here to make friends. prove to me OC draw is faster than OC. maybe a beginner OCer is faster than a beginner CCer. maybe. i practice all the time. ive gone to traning classes. ill draw just as fast or faster than someone with a OC holster. in their defense its all about traning and KEEPING UP ON TRANING. just taking a class or two then not training doenst cut it. drawing can be a perishable skill. how many of the OCers CC in winter?

g21sfpistol said:

im not here to make friends. prove to me OC draw is faster than OC. maybe a beginner OCer is faster than a beginner CCer. maybe. i practice all the time. ive gone to traning classes. ill draw just as fast or faster than someone with a OC holster. in their defense its all about traning and KEEPING UP ON TRANING. just taking a class or two then not training doenst cut it. drawing can be a perishable skill. how many of the OCers CC in winter?

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You lost me here. Go to a USPSA or IDPA comp. See how they draw and what they use for "concealment" or holsters. There is a reason why why use "idpa vests" as concealment. Its the closest thing you can get to open carry while still "concealing".

OC is physically faster. The physics being that there is no extra steps. So even if your a ninja and you can draw faster from CC then some guy can from OC.... YOU would still be faster at OC then you would be CC. Make sense grass hopper?

And this is coming from a guy who CCs the vast majority of the time. I train it, I teach it, I live it. But I'll still stand up and say OC does have advantages.

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g21sfpistol said:

im not here to make friends. prove to me OC draw is faster than OC...

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You're not here to debate, either, as you tend to just skip to the next thought or thread rather than defend or support the bulk of your claims as they're refuted.

If you truly believe that your draw is in no way hindered by adding extra layers of concealment to deal with, I can only surmise that you have never compared them for yourself under any sort of pressure. Everyone else knows that your notion is silly, especially those who practice and train drawing with one hand, off hand, etc.

I won't even get into the increased likelihood of the draw becoming tangled in a fistful of shirt - especially during one-handed pressure drills.

Also, knowing that most criminals will avoid selecting an armed citizen does not equate to trusting in that knowledge to accomplish our defensive needs (also known as the "magic talisman" argument, a common strawman fallacy favored by anti-OC). Your position that this knowledge is somehow disadvantageous lacks any rational basis. Please support it if you can.

Primus said:

You lost me here. Go to a USPSA or IDPA comp. See how they draw and what they use for "concealment" or holsters. There is a reason why why use "idpa vests" as concealment. Its the closest thing you can get to open carry while still "concealing".

OC is physically faster. The physics being that there is no extra steps. So even if your a ninja and you can draw faster from CC then some guy can from OC.... YOU would still be faster at OC then you would be CC. Make sense grass hopper?

And this is coming from a guy who CCs the vast majority of the time. I train it, I teach it, I live it. But I'll still stand up and say OC does have advantages.

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oh great one. not every one is uspsa or idpa. its two different worlds. if you teach you should know how important training and continuious training is. i didnt say there werent advantages. i was arguing the whole deterrent myth. it has to be seen in the first place. yous said so yourself, people post on here all the time how no one noticed them OCing.

ATM said:

You're not here to debate, either, as you tend to just skip to the next thought or thread rather than defend or support the bulk of your claims as they're refuted.

If you truly believe that your draw is in no way hindered by adding extra layers of concealment to deal with, I can only surmise that you have never compared them for yourself under any sort of pressure. Everyone else knows that your notion is silly, especially those who practice and train drawing with one hand, off hand, etc.

I won't even get into the increased likelihood of the draw becoming tangled in a fistful of shirt - especially during one-handed pressure drills.

Also, knowing that most criminals will avoid selecting an armed citizen does not equate to trusting in that knowledge to accomplish our defensive needs (also known as the "magic talisman" argument, a common strawman fallacy favored by anti-OC). Your position that this knowledge is somehow disadvantageous lacks any rational basis. Please support it if you can.

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here you are trying to scramble what i say because i bring up good arguments. ive done classes where i have drwan from CC and OC so yes i have had a fair amout to compaire both. i havnt gotten tangled in any extra layers of clothing in years. of course i can compair that to fumbling with your retention device on your holster. how many times to i have to mention the issue of training here? because YES when it gets colder i train with my pull over on. i have a select few of jackets i wear and dress around what works for me.

this is where CC will have the advantage of consistency. my gun doesnt move from outside a belt to inside a belt to having an article of clothing over my gun. its all the same year round. this is why i asked the question of OCing in the winter. or did i forget to type it? ok who OC in the winter? do you have a coat on over your gun? guess what. thats a change to the last 3-5 months of warm weather where you trained with nothing covering your gun.now you have a jacket in the way. when i CC its one of the same. the jacket i put on makes no difference in my draw. anyone who trains people or takes training should know the word consistancy. if you dont hear the word consistancy out of your instructors mouth, i would ask for a refund.

ATM said:

You're not here to debate, either, as you tend to just skip to the next thought or thread rather than defend or support the bulk of your claims as they're refuted.

If you truly believe that your draw is in no way hindered by adding extra layers of concealment to deal with, I can only surmise that you have never compared them for yourself under any sort of pressure. Everyone else knows that your notion is silly, especially those who practice and train drawing with one hand, off hand, etc.

I won't even get into the increased likelihood of the draw becoming tangled in a fistful of shirt - especially during one-handed pressure drills.

Also, knowing that most criminals will avoid selecting an armed citizen does not equate to trusting in that knowledge to accomplish our defensive needs (also known as the "magic talisman" argument, a common strawman fallacy favored by anti-OC). Your position that this knowledge is somehow disadvantageous lacks any rational basis. Please support it if you can.

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AH. i forgot to mention i will admit the on handed draw is quicker in a OC holster, i will give you that.

g21sfpistol said:

oh great one. not every one is uspsa or idpa. its two different worlds. if you teach you should know how important training and continuious training is. i didnt say there werent advantages. i was arguing the whole deterrent myth. it has to be seen in the first place. yous said so yourself, people post on here all the time how no one noticed them OCing.

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Someone who is blazingly fast as yourself from concealment should try out idpa/uspsa then. You'd be a grandmaster and teach us all a thing or two I'm sure.

Heres the deal with the "myth" your trying to debunk.

If even ONE criminal sees it and thinks twice then it stands and is valid. While I say people are sheep and criminals are just dumb sheep, even they on occasion do notice stuff.

Finally, not really sure what the point of trying to debunk the "myth" is. If I said my red under wear brings me luck who are you to disprove me? Does it bother you some guy somewhere in some town is OCing his gun? It certainly doesn't bother me.

The saying is to each his own grasshoppa .

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Vizzini is in the house!

g21sfpistol said:

here you are trying to scramble what i say because i bring up good arguments...

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Ha! No.

If even ONE criminal sees it and thinks twice then it stands and is valid. While I say people are sheep and criminals are just dumb sheep, even they on occasion do notice stuff.

why does it seem like OCers are self-absorbed? CC helps the general populace more than OC would. id rather it benefit other people as well. do you want to guess who has a gun or know who has a gun? its no different then fighting the taliban. they blended in great. and the worst part was not knowing who was who. but hey, they were ease to pick out carrying aks and rpgs

Primus said:

So there probably is some truth to the dummy trying to rob some smokes would never even notice the purdy gun unless it was really shiny or in a drop leg.

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Perhaps.

It would seem to me that the act of committing robbery would drive even the most unaware individual into at least a few moments of hyper-awareness.

g21sfpistol said:

If even ONE criminal sees it and thinks twice then it stands and is valid. While I say people are sheep and criminals are just dumb sheep, even they on occasion do notice stuff.

why does it seem like OCers are self-absorbed? CC helps the general populace more than OC would. id rather it benefit other people as well. do you want to guess who has a gun or know who has a gun? its no different then fighting the taliban. they blended in great. and the worst part was not knowing who was who. but hey, they were ease to pick out carrying aks and rpgs

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Oh we are in Afghanistan now? Listen my friend, I've been there done that got the T-shirt.

This isn't a combat zone. There are now tangos to elminate. There is no more ambushing whether near or far or initiated by us or them.

This country is free. So that means people are free to carry however whenever whatever (in states its legal). That's why you deployed (if you deployed). Well that's why I did anyways.

Your not "saving" society from anything or anyone by coming here and saying OC is no good.

You are clearly free to state that opinion until the moderators no longer want to deal with it. Then they are free to tell you to kick rocks. And the residents here are free to disagree with you.



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