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Thread: FOPA-type question, VA to FL

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    FOPA-type question, VA to FL

    Friend of mine is driving from VA to FL, plans to transport a fairly old pump-action shotgun with her to deliver to a relative. She's driving one of those Honda Elements, which doesn't have a completely separate trunk space.

    She has no case for the gun, and will be carrying no ammunition. I suggested she wrap the shotgun with towels to protect it, and pack it first, under all the rest of the stuff, which will include several boxes of things, to ensure it is not "readily accessible."

    Anything else I need to tell her? I assume a route straight down I-95 through NC, SC, and GA.

    TFred

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    Quote Originally Posted by TFred View Post
    Friend of mine is driving from VA to FL, plans to transport a fairly old pump-action shotgun with her to deliver to a relative. She's driving one of those Honda Elements, which doesn't have a completely separate trunk space.

    She has no case for the gun, and will be carrying no ammunition. I suggested she wrap the shotgun with towels to protect it, and pack it first, under all the rest of the stuff, which will include several boxes of things, to ensure it is not "readily accessible."

    Anything else I need to tell her? I assume a route straight down I-95 through NC, SC, and GA.

    TFred
    Well, let's start this out by saying she might be about to commit a Federal Felony! As well as her friend!

    Now, according to the law, in her case, the firearm must be unloaded and locked in a separate container.:
    if, during such transportation the firearm is unloaded, and neither the firearm nor any ammunition being transported is readily accessible or is directly accessible from the passenger compartment of such transporting vehicle: Provided, That in the case of a vehicle without a compartment separate from the driver’s compartment the firearm or ammunition shall be contained in a locked container other than the glove compartment or console.
    Failure to do this nullifies the protection offered by this law and subjects her to local laws during her travels.
    Last edited by notalawyer; 02-16-2014 at 08:21 PM.

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by notalawyer View Post
    Well, let's start this out by saying she might be about to commit a Federal Felony! As well as her friend!

    Now, according to the law, in her case, the firearm must be unloaded and locked in a separate container.:

    Failure to do this nullifies the protection offer by this law and subjects her to local laws during her travels.
    And that Federal Felony would be?

    And that is why I included the states she was traveling through and to. Are there any crazy laws along the way for an unloaded shotgun?

    TFred

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    If it were me, I would buy her a cheap case at Walmart. And buy a cheap 'luggage' style padlock to put on it. I would even consider a soft case, if you can 'lock' the zipper closed.

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blk97F150 View Post
    If it were me, I would buy her a cheap case at Walmart. And buy a cheap 'luggage' style padlock to put on it. I would even consider a soft case, if you can 'lock' the zipper closed.
    Ya, thinking I will loan her one of mine for the trip...

    I didn't get the clear story on who the "From" and "To" persons are, I got the impression they were relatives, but I will explore further.

    TFred

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    Quote Originally Posted by TFred View Post
    And that Federal Felony would be?

    And that is why I included the states she was traveling through and to. Are there any crazy laws along the way for an unloaded shotgun?

    TFred
    18 USC 922(a)
    It shall be unlawful...
    [Her]
    (5) for any person (other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector) to transfer, sell, trade, give, transport, or deliver any firearm to any person (other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector) who the transferor knows or has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in . . . the State in which the transferor resides;. . .
    [Her friend]
    (3) for any person, other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector to transport into or receive in the State where he resides . . . any firearm purchased or otherwise obtained by such person outside that State . . .
    Interstate transfer of a firearm MUST go through a FFL.
    Last edited by notalawyer; 02-16-2014 at 08:40 PM.

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by notalawyer View Post
    18 USC 922(a)

    [Her]

    [Her friend]

    Interstate transfer of a firearm MUST go through a FFL.
    Hmm, I thought that was handguns.

    Found out it is a mom sending shotgun to son.

    TFred

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    Quote Originally Posted by notalawyer View Post
    18 USC 922(a)

    [Her]

    [Her friend]

    Interstate transfer of a firearm MUST go through a FFL.
    Thats not 100% accurate. There are some exceptions, as noted in 18 USC 922(a). Here are a couple (I'm sure there are more as well...).

    http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/922

    ...except that this paragraph shall not apply to
    (A) the transfer, transportation, or delivery of a firearm made to carry out a bequest of a firearm to, or an acquisition by intestate succession of a firearm by, a person who is permitted to acquire or possess a firearm under the laws of the State of his residence, and
    (B) the loan or rental of a firearm to any person for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes;

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Still chasing down info... may possibly be just a relocation of shotgun already owned by recipient. All within same family.

    I don't have a hard case that will fit, would need to be soft, with zippers, but can be locked.

    TFred

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    Quote Originally Posted by TFred View Post
    Hmm, I thought that was handguns.

    Found out it is a mom sending shotgun to son.

    TFred
    Handguns must go through a FFL in the receipents state. Long guns can go through a FFL in any state.

    Found out it is a mom sending shotgun to son.
    Makes no difference.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TFred View Post
    Still chasing down info... may possibly be just a relocation of shotgun already owned by recipient. All within same family.

    I don't have a hard case that will fit, would need to be soft, with zippers, but can be locked.

    TFred
    Still chasing down info... may possibly be just a relocation of shotgun already owned by recipient. All within same family.
    Still makes no difference.

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    WallyWorld has hard cases for less than $20...

    http://www.walmart.com/ip/Plano-Riff...-Case/17284291

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blk97F150 View Post
    Thats not 100% accurate. There are some exceptions, as noted in 18 USC 922(a). Here are a couple (I'm sure there are more as well...).
    Which do not apply to the OP's post. But thank for posting that, I did not in an effort to not cloud the issue.

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Ok, we finally got the right questions asked. Shotgun belongs to man in Florida, who used to live in Virginia. When they moved, they simply did not have enough room to cram all their stuff into the U-Haul. So friend of the family (my friend) is driving to Florida, taking several boxes of said stuff that would not cram in U-Haul. Was planning to include shotgun.

    So looks like we have an unrelated friend driving a long gun from its owner's former residence to his new residence. No actual transfer of ownership involved, unless you would consider the temporary possession while driving to be a transfer.

    My friend is certainly not wanting to break the law. Is this too risky? Of course there is no paperwork on the gun available for her to carry.

    TFred

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    Quote Originally Posted by TFred View Post
    Ok, we finally got the right questions asked. Shotgun belongs to man in Florida, who used to live in Virginia. When they moved, they simply did not have enough room to cram all their stuff into the U-Haul. So friend of the family (my friend) is driving to Florida, taking several boxes of said stuff that would not cram in U-Haul. Was planning to include shotgun.

    So looks like we have an unrelated friend driving a long gun from its owner's former residence to his new residence. No actual transfer of ownership involved, unless you would consider the temporary possession while driving to be a transfer.

    My friend is certainly not wanting to break the law. Is this too risky? Of course there is no paperwork on the gun available for her to carry.

    TFred
    FYI, transfer refers to the transfer of possession, not ownership.


    When they moved, they simply did not have enough room to cram all their stuff into the U-Haul.
    This, according to the ATF was a transfer (legal because they both lived in the same state at the time.)

    unless you would consider the temporary possession while driving to be a transfer.
    Not me personally, but the ATF considers this an unlawful interstate transfer.

    So friend of the family (my friend) is driving to Florida, taking several boxes of said stuff that would not cram in U-Haul. Was planning to include shotgun.
    So now there are three people committing a federal felony, and perhaps guilty of conspiracy to commit a felony! The family member in VA, the driver, and the recipient in FL.

    My friend is certainly not wanting to break the law.
    Well, then don't!

    Is this too risky?
    Is your friend going to get pulled over? Is the shotgun going to be found? Is the possession going to violate the laws in any state that he/she is traveling through? Is he/she a good lair? Does he/she enjoy spending time in Federal prison?
    Last edited by notalawyer; 02-16-2014 at 09:14 PM.

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    I don't see how there are three, the guy moved out of his parents house and left his shotgun. You surely can't mean that when one moves out of their parents house to another state, they are making felons out of themselves and their parents unless they take the gun with them...

    Then again with the ATF making up rules as they go, it's not a hard sell.

    Sounds like the easiest answer will be for the man to wait until he returns to his parents home for a visit, and then either drive it himself, or ship it to himself.

    TFred

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TFred View Post
    I don't see how there are three, the guy moved out of his parents house and left his shotgun. You surely can't mean that when one moves out of their parents house to another state, they are making felons out of themselves and their parents unless they take the gun with them...

    Then again with the ATF making up rules as they go, it's not a hard sell.

    Sounds like the easiest answer will be for the man to wait until he returns to his parents home for a visit, and then either drive it himself, or ship it to himself.

    TFred

    Geeeese.....tell her just to loan it to him!

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    Quote Originally Posted by TFred View Post
    I don't see how there are three, the guy moved out of his parents house and left his shotgun. You surely can't mean that when one moves out of their parents house to another state, they are making felons out of themselves and their parents unless they take the gun with them...

    Then again with the ATF making up rules as they go, it's not a hard sell.

    Sounds like the easiest answer will be for the man to wait until he returns to his parents home for a visit, and then either drive it himself, or ship it to himself.

    TFred
    You misunderstand.

    When he moved out, he legally transferred the gun to one of his parents, simply by leaving it there and moving out of state. So the parent, a resident of VA, is now in lawful possession of the shotgun.

    First felony: The parent's unlawful interstate transfer, by causing it to be delivered to the resident of another state, in another state.

    Second Felony: The guy doing the actual delivery is also in violation of federal law.

    Third Felony: The son in Florida.

    And all three could conceivably be charged with conspiracy.


    Sounds like the easiest answer will be for the man to wait until he returns to his parents home for a visit, and then either drive it himself, or ship it to himself.
    Well, that would cut down on the number of felonies committed. But only to two. The parent that is currently in possession and himself.

    He is a resident of FL, his parent is a resident of VA. The only lawful method for him to take possession of the shotgun is for his parent to go with him to an FFL in VA and transfer the gun. (The FFL will need to follow the laws of both VA and FL.) Or for his parent to go to (or ship the shotgun to) a FL FFL and transfer the gun to him there.

    Or simply wait for his parent to die and then he can legally go up there and get it, if it was left to him in the will. Or the executor of the estate can ship it to him.
    Last edited by notalawyer; 02-16-2014 at 10:17 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by notalawyer View Post
    SNIP

    First felony: The parent's unlawful interstate transfer, by causing it to be delivered to the resident of another state, in another state.

    Second Felony: The guy doing the actual delivery is also in violation of federal law.

    Third Felony: The son in Florida.

    And all three could conceivably be charged with conspiracy.


    Well, that would cut down on the number of felonies committed. But only to two. The parent that is currently in possession and himself.
    And, some people around here shake their head or disagree that government is criminal.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    This is starting to stink an awful lot like the GFSZA.

    I can't wrap my head around any assertion that a son moving out of his parents home, to his own home across a state line, commits a felony by simply not taking his gun, among many other possessions, with him. Or that such an act makes the parents felons.

    TFred

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    Quote Originally Posted by TFred View Post
    This is starting to stink an awful lot like the GFSZA.

    I can't wrap my head around any assertion that a son moving out of his parents home, to his own home across a state line, commits a felony by simply not taking his gun, among many other possessions, with him. Or that such an act makes the parents felons.

    TFred
    You are still missing it.

    Neither he nor his parents committed a crime when he left.

    The crimes will be committed when getting the shotgun to him in Florida in the manner proposed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    And, some people around here shake their head or disagree that government is criminal.
    Yeah, the whole Interstate transfer of Firearms BS, is completely repugnant to the founder's intent (and common sense interpretation) of the Commerce Clause!

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by notalawyer View Post
    You are still missing it.

    Neither he nor his parents committed a crime when he left.

    The crimes will be committed when getting the shotgun to him in Florida in the manner proposed.
    So maybe not in Virginia, but any of the states which require a paperwork trail to transfer, it would seem to apply.

    I'd love to see that conviction appealed in a legitimate court.

    TFred

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    Quote Originally Posted by TFred View Post
    So maybe not in Virginia, but any of the states which require a paperwork trail to transfer, it would seem to apply.

    I'd love to see that conviction appealed in a legitimate court.

    TFred
    Are there any? I mean between parent and child. I have no idea. But that's not really the topic of this thread now is it?
    Last edited by notalawyer; 02-16-2014 at 10:59 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TFred View Post
    So maybe not in Virginia, but any of the states which require a paperwork trail to transfer, it would seem to apply.

    I'd love to see that conviction appealed in a legitimate court.

    TFred
    TFred pm User about this! He as a lawyer would be better to answer this than us non lawyers.

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