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Thread: What's this I'm hearing about moms demand action flooding the G.A.?

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    Campaign Veteran T Dubya's Avatar
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    What's this I'm hearing about moms demand action flooding the G.A.?

    Some sort of stroller protest?

    I finally found a link, not on WRIC's front page on their website.

    http://www.wric.com/story/24746156/g...s-in-the-house
    Last edited by T Dubya; 02-18-2014 at 10:10 PM. Reason: Added a news link.
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    You have a violent hubby? Move out .. should be "stupid moms demand action because they are too stupid to figure stuff out themselves"

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    You have a violent hubby? Move out .. should be "stupid moms demand action because they are too stupid to figure stuff out themselves"
    That is most definitely not the way we want to go on this issue. Not only does it show a horribly ignorant perspective on domestic violence - particularly the emotional abuse often involved, it's absolutely disrespectful to anyone who has ever been a victim. This is not how you win folks to your point of view.

    The advocated position by VCDL, with which I happen to agree, is that we should always fight against the removal of civil rights - all civil rights - as punishment for a misdemeanor. By definition, a misdemeanor is a minor crime. My view (not necessarily that of VCDL): if society - through the due process - decides that these criminal actions are worthy of removal of civil rights, then they need to be classified as felonies, not misdemeanors.

    TFred
    Last edited by TFred; 02-19-2014 at 12:30 AM. Reason: ETA: Clarify my opinion vs. VCDL

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by T Dubya View Post
    Some sort of stroller protest?

    I finally found a link, not on WRIC's front page on their website.

    http://www.wric.com/story/24746156/g...s-in-the-house
    "Moms across Virginia say they won't take no for an answer."

    Here I thought "No means no." When did this change?
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    Quote Originally Posted by TFred View Post
    That is most definitely not the way we want to go on this issue.

    TFred
    I disagree ... word has to get out to these people who are victims ... "don't stay with the abuser".

    Instead, people think that the gov't should actually do something about these situations. The gov't can do little in reality.

    People have to take personal responsibility for their own personal safety.

    This is not the 1950's.

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    I disagree ... word has to get out to these people who are victims ... "don't stay with the abuser".

    Instead, people think that the gov't should actually do something about these situations. The gov't can do little in reality.

    People have to take personal responsibility for their own personal safety.

    This is not the 1950's.
    And once again, you loudly proclaim your horrific ignorance on this subject. Are you an abuser? That's about the only reason I can think that one might support such an attitude. Apparently you know nothing about the emotional abuse in such relationships and what it can do to the people involved. What do YOU do to help victims of domestic violence in your local jurisdiction? Do you help provide shelter and resources to these folks who believe they are trapped in such situations?

    Suggest you do a little reading, and stop blaming the victims of these crimes!

    And for goodness sake, if you're going to spew that filth, do it some place other than here. We're trying to change a culture, we don't need you setting that effort back 6 decades.

    TFred

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    Quote Originally Posted by TFred View Post
    And once again, you loudly proclaim your horrific ignorance on this subject. Are you an abuser? That's about the only reason I can think that one might support such an attitude. Apparently you know nothing about the emotional abuse in such relationships and what it can do to the people involved. What do YOU do to help victims of domestic violence in your local jurisdiction? Do you help provide shelter and resources to these folks who believe they are trapped in such situations?

    Suggest you do a little reading, and stop blaming the victims of these crimes!

    And for goodness sake, if you're going to spew that filth, do it some place other than here. We're trying to change a culture, we don't need you setting that effort back 6 decades.

    TFred
    None of those excuses pass muster with me .... and these excuses actually enable an abuser IMO.

    I've heard all these excuses before. I simply don't buy 'em. And this is how you change the culture ...

    Now they want to take a person's gun rights away. Lets keep focused on this --- seems like you would support such laws, correct?

    You can stop the personal attacks now.

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    None of those excuses pass muster with me .... and these excuses actually enable an abuser IMO.

    I've heard all these excuses before. I simply don't buy 'em. And this is how you change the culture ...

    Now they want to take a person's gun rights away. Lets keep focused on this --- seems like you would support such laws, correct?

    You can stop the personal attacks now.
    No, you are the enabler, you are blaming the victim for not correcting circumstances that are beyond their control.

    How fortunate you are that you have not had "to buy" these "excuses" before. Do you have no clue how much that makes YOU sound like an abuser? Apparently not.

    There is no place for that here. There never will be.

    ETA: Look here's the bottom line. You can say whatever stupid thing you want to here, we all get a good chuckle out of it most of the time. But when you start belittling the horrible situations some victims of abuse find themselves in, and nobody calls you on it, you stain everyone's reputation. That's where the line must be drawn between amusing and offensively ignorant, and detrimental to the community.

    TFred
    Last edited by TFred; 02-19-2014 at 08:15 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TFred View Post
    No, you are the enabler, you are blaming the victim for not correcting circumstances that are beyond their control.

    How fortunate you are that you have not had "to buy" these "excuses" before. Do you have no clue how much that makes YOU sound like an abuser? Apparently not.

    There is no place for that here. There never will be.

    ETA: Look here's the bottom line. You can say whatever stupid thing you want to here, we all get a good chuckle out of it most of the time. But when you start belittling the horrible situations some victims of abuse find themselves in, and nobody calls you on it, you stain everyone's reputation. That's where the line must be drawn between amusing and offensively ignorant, and detrimental to the community.

    TFred
    Blah blah blah. We covered these points already; I am not swayed and you are not swayed. Lets move on.

    Do you support the law to take away a person's RKBA that is the subject matter of this thread?

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    In a nation of laws we should not want the state to start prosecuting citizens where the victim does not press charges, especially if the victim is adamant about not pressing charges. The next thing ya know, rumors of abuse (MWAG?) are all that is needed to arrest, without warrant, and prosecute.....even when the victim is adamant to the contrary.

    If the beat-up wife don't want to press charges who are we to use the state to seek redress for her, in her name when she will not seek a redress herself.

    My question, would this apply to cops, without an exemption to continue to pack heat while on the job, cuz they didn't get fired for roughing up their wife and/or kids?

    Is there a law in VA for abusing your kids like the photo of the little girl who likely can't even read the sign she carries, let alone comprehend what the sign means or what Mommy is trying to do.....maybe even to daddy.

    Nitwits, each and every one of them.....poor kids.

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    Regular Member 1245A Defender's Avatar
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    Woowie!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    Blah blah blah. We covered these points already; I am not swayed and you are not swayed. Lets move on.

    Do you support the law to take away a person's RKBA that is the subject matter of this thread?
    Removing the RTBA from an abusive spouse,,,,
    Will NOT protect the Abused person!!!
    There are axes, knives, bats, fists,,, ETC!!!!!

    Abused spouses can ONLY be PROTECTED,,, by,,, leaving,,, taking responsibility for their safety...
    BY GETTING AWAY!!!!!
    EMNofSeattle wrote: Your idea of freedom terrifies me. So you are actually right. I am perfectly happy with what you call tyranny.....

    “If ever a time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in Government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin.”

    Stand up for your Rights,, They have no authority on their own...

    All power is inherent in the people,
    it is their right and duty to be at all times ARMED!

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    .....or, having a gun to shoot the "son-of-a-so-and-so" when he comes around to hit you or your kids. Remember, the cops will not be there to protect you or your kids. Leave or fight, those are the only two choices.

    I wonder if those nitwit Moms feel the same way about any woman who abuses their spouse/kids.

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1245A Defender View Post
    Abused spouses can ONLY be PROTECTED,,, by,,, leaving,,, taking responsibility for their safety...
    BY GETTING AWAY!!!!!
    News Flash: The cure for hunger is eating food.

    I hope everyone here understands how fortunate they are that they do not understand the power of entrapment brought on by the emotional abuse inherent in most domestic violence situations. Count your blessings that you have the privilege of holding such ignorance.

    And in the mean time, consider the effect of your writing on an abused person who may be looking here for information how to protect themselves.

    ETA: Just to connect the dots, you can accomplish the same ends by screaming at a starving person, "EAT SOME FOOD, you moron!"

    TFred
    Last edited by TFred; 02-19-2014 at 09:35 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TFred View Post
    No, you are the enabler, you are blaming the victim for not correcting circumstances that are beyond their control.

    How fortunate you are that you have not had "to buy" these "excuses" before. Do you have no clue how much that makes YOU sound like an abuser? Apparently not.

    There is no place for that here. There never will be.

    ETA: Look here's the bottom line. You can say whatever stupid thing you want to here, we all get a good chuckle out of it most of the time. But when you start belittling the horrible situations some victims of abuse find themselves in, and nobody calls you on it, you stain everyone's reputation. That's where the line must be drawn between amusing and offensively ignorant, and detrimental to the community.

    TFred
    I want to wholeheartedly endorse what TFred says here.

    Until and unless you have directly witnessed or experienced the full effect of domestic abuse, it's almost impossible to understand what is going through the minds of those who are involved.

    I am a survivor of domestic abuse (yes, men can be the target of domestic abuse, too), and that is one of the major reasons that I am a strong advocate for self-defense. My ex-wife was abusive towards me, primarily emotionally, but occasionally with the threat of physical violence as well. I was able to get out of that bad situation, but I was willing to keep working within it, trying to help her. (She had a long history of bipolar depression and the abuse primarily came during the depressive bouts rather than the manic ones.) Ultimately, she decided that she didn't want help with it, and I was left with no other choice but to end the marriage.

    When she was not going through one of her manic/depressive cycles, she was a wonderful person to be around, and I'm convinced that we could have made our marriage work if she had been willing to seek treatment that would help stabilize her episodes. I loved her dearly, and really wanted to help her, but she rejected the help I could have given.

    Going through my divorce is the darkest time of my life, and in many ways my inability to help her haunts me to this day. The healing process takes years, if not decades. (I've been greatly helped in this process by my new wife, who I have known now for the last 5 years, and with whom I am expecting our third child any day now.)

    Without knowing the full context of a specific domestic abuse situation, you really cannot judge the people involved.

    What does this have to do with the proposed laws? Well, even after everything I went through with my ex, I still would not want her to be deprived of her rights because of either her behavior towards me or her bipolar depression. (Admittedly, according to two mutual friends she did make threats of violence against me during our separation leading to divorce, but she also hated guns with a passion.) Would I have given her a gun? Not at all. (I didn't get my first guns until about 6 months after the divorce was final.) But, I would not have insisted that her rights be permanently (or even over a long term, like 5 years) be denied to her.

    Abuse is a very difficult subject to approach, and there are very few clear, bright lines that we can point to and say "this is fine, this is not". Each situation is unique, and you have to look at each individual case as such.
    Alma 43:47 - "And again, the Lord has said that: Ye shall defend your families even unto bloodshed...."
    Self defense isn't just a good idea, it's a commandment.

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    Quote Originally Posted by grylnsmn View Post
    I want to wholeheartedly endorse what TFred says here.

    Until and unless you have directly witnessed or experienced the full effect of domestic abuse, it's almost impossible to understand what is going through the minds of those who are involved.

    I am a survivor of domestic abuse (yes, men can be the target of domestic abuse, too), and that is one of the major reasons that I am a strong advocate for self-defense. My ex-wife was abusive towards me, primarily emotionally, but occasionally with the threat of physical violence as well. I was able to get out of that bad situation, but I was willing to keep working within it, trying to help her. (She had a long history of bipolar depression and the abuse primarily came during the depressive bouts rather than the manic ones.) Ultimately, she decided that she didn't want help with it, and I was left with no other choice but to end the marriage.

    When she was not going through one of her manic/depressive cycles, she was a wonderful person to be around, and I'm convinced that we could have made our marriage work if she had been willing to seek treatment that would help stabilize her episodes. I loved her dearly, and really wanted to help her, but she rejected the help I could have given.

    Going through my divorce is the darkest time of my life, and in many ways my inability to help her haunts me to this day. The healing process takes years, if not decades. (I've been greatly helped in this process by my new wife, who I have known now for the last 5 years, and with whom I am expecting our third child any day now.)

    Without knowing the full context of a specific domestic abuse situation, you really cannot judge the people involved.

    What does this have to do with the proposed laws? Well, even after everything I went through with my ex, I still would not want her to be deprived of her rights because of either her behavior towards me or her bipolar depression. (Admittedly, according to two mutual friends she did make threats of violence against me during our separation leading to divorce, but she also hated guns with a passion.) Would I have given her a gun? Not at all. (I didn't get my first guns until about 6 months after the divorce was final.) But, I would not have insisted that her rights be permanently (or even over a long term, like 5 years) be denied to her.

    Abuse is a very difficult subject to approach, and there are very few clear, bright lines that we can point to and say "this is fine, this is not". Each situation is unique, and you have to look at each individual case as such.
    Abso-*******-lutely outstanding. 100+ to you sir.

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    It seems the supporters of this bill wish to portray murderous, brutal men as the ones who might be affected by this law; but in reality existing felonies should already be applicable to brutal acts of violence and sexual acts, and certainly for murder. However, those affected by these changes might be a wife who slaps her husband for an insult or unkindness, or a wife who discreetly watches what her husband is up to when he calls to say he's leaving the office late just one night more. Truly violent behavior should be punished, but deprivation of rights for more petty stuff is nonsense.

    * I missed your post grylnsmn because I started posting this reply well before yours and took a while before completing it.
    Last edited by jmelvin; 02-19-2014 at 09:54 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TFred View Post
    That is most definitely not the way we want to go on this issue. Not only does it show a horribly ignorant perspective on domestic violence - particularly the emotional abuse often involved, it's absolutely disrespectful to anyone who has ever been a victim. This is not how you win folks to your point of view.

    The advocated position by VCDL, with which I happen to agree, is that we should always fight against the removal of civil rights - all civil rights - as punishment for a misdemeanor. By definition, a misdemeanor is a minor crime. My view (not necessarily that of VCDL): if society - through the due process - decides that these criminal actions are worthy of removal of civil rights, then they need to be classified as felonies, not misdemeanors.

    TFred
    +1 Bravo, and well said. As a former victim's advocate I know that it's not always as simple as just leaving; I wish it were, then we could do away with domestic violence altogether (and remember, it's not just women being victimized, I've seen men victimized as well).

    Grylnsmn, I applaud you for having the strength to leave a bad situation, sir!
    Last edited by Justine; 02-19-2014 at 09:58 AM.

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    Regular Member Primus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by grylnsmn View Post
    I want to wholeheartedly endorse what TFred says here.

    Until and unless you have directly witnessed or experienced the full effect of domestic abuse, it's almost impossible to understand what is going through the minds of those who are involved.

    I am a survivor of domestic abuse (yes, men can be the target of domestic abuse, too), and that is one of the major reasons that I am a strong advocate for self-defense. My ex-wife was abusive towards me, primarily emotionally, but occasionally with the threat of physical violence as well. I was able to get out of that bad situation, but I was willing to keep working within it, trying to help her. (She had a long history of bipolar depression and the abuse primarily came during the depressive bouts rather than the manic ones.) Ultimately, she decided that she didn't want help with it, and I was left with no other choice but to end the marriage.

    When she was not going through one of her manic/depressive cycles, she was a wonderful person to be around, and I'm convinced that we could have made our marriage work if she had been willing to seek treatment that would help stabilize her episodes. I loved her dearly, and really wanted to help her, but she rejected the help I could have given.

    Going through my divorce is the darkest time of my life, and in many ways my inability to help her haunts me to this day. The healing process takes years, if not decades. (I've been greatly helped in this process by my new wife, who I have known now for the last 5 years, and with whom I am expecting our third child any day now.)

    Without knowing the full context of a specific domestic abuse situation, you really cannot judge the people involved.

    What does this have to do with the proposed laws? Well, even after everything I went through with my ex, I still would not want her to be deprived of her rights because of either her behavior towards me or her bipolar depression. (Admittedly, according to two mutual friends she did make threats of violence against me during our separation leading to divorce, but she also hated guns with a passion.) Would I have given her a gun? Not at all. (I didn't get my first guns until about 6 months after the divorce was final.) But, I would not have insisted that her rights be permanently (or even over a long term, like 5 years) be denied to her.

    Abuse is a very difficult subject to approach, and there are very few clear, bright lines that we can point to and say "this is fine, this is not". Each situation is unique, and you have to look at each individual case as such.
    Well said. Appreciate your sharing that and the best of luck in your new marriage.

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    Regular Member Primus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmelvin View Post
    It seems the supporters of this bill wish to portray murderous, brutal men as the ones who might be affected by this law; but in reality existing felonies should already be applicable to brutal acts of violence and sexual acts, and certainly for murder. However, those affected by these changes might be a wife who slaps her husband for an insult or unkindness, or a wife who discreetly watches what her husband is up to when he calls to say he's leaving the office late just one night more. Truly violent behavior should be punished, but deprivation of rights for petty stuff is nonsense.

    * I missed your post grylnsmn because I started posting this reply well before yours and took a while before completing it.
    Well there in lies the problem. If a person tells another person everyday that they are related to (blood/marriage) or live with "if you leave I will kill you" and slaps them or even punches them... you have two misdemeanors in MA. Threats to commit crime and a&b household.

    On face value, well so what they uttered some words in anger and struck the other person with a closed or open fist. Doesn't seem severe enough to warrant felony charges. But domestic violence is a whole different animal all together. It can't/shouldn't be treated the same as if I threatened a random person and punched them in the face.

    Note: in MA it would be disqualifier for LTC if convicted of said abuse. Also if a 209A is brought against them still have to surrender ammo, guns, and license.

    IMO it takes a special kind of person to beat your significant other, mother of your children, etc. Etc. Not a good special either. So they deserve what they get.

    BUT... hold your cries of abuse of the law and false reports from men/women. It is true that happens. It puts the burden on the system to PROVE he/she is an abuser or did abuse and not just the other half making stuff up. For example... it should be no victim then no conviction. Obviously that's a huge burden on the victim to face their abuser in court. But its needed to ensure fairness towards accused and hopefully help victim overcome their fear, etc.

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    Abusers will abuse with or without permission, with or without gun rights, with or without illegality, or incarceration or punishment or restraining orders. The only way to stop it is to get out, leave, go away from them.

    Having been the victim of an abuser, it does not make me an expert on this. It might make one more prone to being emotional or having a hysterical response.

    Props to those who have gotten out of the situation; FWIW.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TFred View Post

    ETA: Just to connect the dots, you can accomplish the same ends by screaming at a starving person, "EAT SOME FOOD, you moron!"

    TFred
    Well, if there is a door and after the door is a large banquet, this would be excellent advice! Otherwise..GROW SOME FOOD or FIND SOME FOOD would be more in order. If not able to do any of these, of course the person likely would die ~ I imagine it happens everyday on this marble.

    But TFred, you have not answered the question ... do you support taking a person's RBKA?

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    Quote Originally Posted by 1245A Defender View Post
    Removing the RTBA from an abusive spouse,,,,
    Will NOT protect the Abused person!!!
    There are axes, knives, bats, fists,,, ETC!!!!!

    Abused spouses can ONLY be PROTECTED,,, by,,, leaving,,, taking responsibility for their safety...
    BY GETTING AWAY!!!!!
    The sooner they realize this the better. This has always been my advice. Take it or leave it. Of course the abuser should be arrested if a crime is committed.

  23. #23
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    Can we go back to the woymn who were having their multiple hissy fits at the GA?

    Their point was that people who are violent should not be allowed to posses firearms because if they were not allowed to posses firearms they would not be violent in the first place. In other words, they wanted to lock the barn door before the horse was put in to make sure that the horse never had a chance to get out of the barn.

    No. Really. That was what they were saying.

    On top of that, they wanted to create a laundry list of misdemeanors that would qualify someone to lose a constitutional right. The Lautenberg Amendment http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/PLAW-10...104publ208.htm and http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/USCODE-...p44-sec922.pdf at least had the decency to provide an explanation of why Congress saw fit to withdraw a Constiututional right from someone convicted of a misdemeanor.

    It seems now that gun control proponents no longer feel it necessary to explain why they are twisting the law in order to strip someone of their rights. And that is the scariest part. Not only can you be charged for eating a ham sandwich, there are people who want to lock you up in case you might think about eating a ham sandwich.

    stay safe.
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    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    The group moms demand action for gun sense in America flood the general assembly building holding what's called a stroller jam….

    ...With their kids in tow, these women lobby for legislation protecting domestic violence victims like Lisette Johnson, a Midlothian mother herself, who was shot several times by her husband in 2009, before he took his own life.
    lol! I believe we have the new poster child for "appeal to emotion". It's really quite funny how far these ladies are from even beginning to fathom the notion of an actual argument.

    After all, being that they can't even vote, what do kids have to do with anything? Oh yeah: emotional effect.

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    Quote Originally Posted by marshaul View Post
    lol! I believe we have the new poster child for "appeal to emotion". It's really quite funny how far these ladies are from even beginning to fathom the notion of an actual argument.

    After all, being that they can't even vote, what do kids have to do with anything? Oh yeah: emotional effect.
    But it's for the chillllldrennnnnnnnnnnnnnnn!

    If they could have passed a law that would have prevented her husband from possesing a handgun before he actually did anything then her kids would not have continuing psychiatric problems.

    Yes, I know she claims he was "verbally abusive" - but some of the examples she has let slip would not amount to the most liberal judge in the land agreeing that it actually rose to the minimum standard of "abusive". More of the "I have a right to not feel bad" stuff.

    The primary outcome of what they were lobbying for was the creation of a bunch of misdemeanors being elevated to the level of "misdemeanor domestic violence" - a criome that does not exist in the Code of Virginia of 1950, as amended. The end outcome they were lobbying for was to take away a civil right they felt was icky.

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
    ----Allahpundit

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