Homeland’ purchasing 700m rounds of ammo

bhdpal · Feb 20, 2014

Department of Homeland Security (DHS) is contracted to purchase 704,390,250 rounds of ammunition over the next four years, which is equal to a total of about 2,500 rounds per DHS agent, according to a January 2014 Government Accountability Office (GAO) report entitled Ammunition Purchases Have Declined Since 2009… See More
http://cnsnews.com/news/article/ali...next-4-years-2500-rounds#sthash.LIIOttRC.dpuf

OC for ME · Feb 20, 2014

That figure is the remaining number of rounds in the purchase contract that the feds can exercise if they choose to do so. They have not purchased those rounds.....yet.

Grim_Night · Feb 20, 2014

bhdpal said:
Department of Homeland Security (DHS) is contracted to purchase 704,390,250 rounds of ammunition over the next four years, which is equal to a total of about 2,500 rounds per DHS agent,

um... that works out to over 280,000 agents... I think not.

OC for ME · Feb 20, 2014

The DHS has a great many more armed employees other than just the ones who are employed by The DHS.

http://cnsnews.com/news/article/ali...ion-rounds-ammo-over-next-4-years-2500-rounds

Primus · Feb 20, 2014

2800 RDS? That's like 230 a month. So they get to shoot 5 boxes a month. Sounds like 1 range day a month to me.

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DocWalker · Feb 20, 2014

Primus said:
2800 RDS? That's like 230 a month. So they get to shoot 5 boxes a month. Sounds like 1 range day a month to me.

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Most military members only hit the range once a year unless you are in special forces or something. USAF Security Police are only required to "live fire" once a year or before deployment.

Nice to see DHS gets more range time than the US Military. I do wonder why they would need so much range time? Who are they going to fight?

solus · Feb 20, 2014

DocWalker said:
Most military members only hit the range once a year unless you are in special forces or something. USAF Security Police are only required to "live fire" once a year or before deployment.

Nice to see DHS gets more range time than the US Military. I do wonder why they would need so much range time? Who are they going to fight?[/QUOTE]

leap of faith, but thanks for your current or past service, as the case may be!

Doc, you meant that as a rhetoric question at the end of your post right? :shocker:

and come on fellows...this is normal 5 year GSA procurement activities going on!!

and i am sure due to funding restraints of other US departments, some ammo might actually be diverted to other agencies or freedom fighters - say what?

ipse

Primus · Feb 20, 2014

DocWalker said:
Most military members only hit the range once a year unless you are in special forces or something. USAF Security Police are only required to "live fire" once a year or before deployment.

Nice to see DHS gets more range time than the US Military. I do wonder why they would need so much range time? Who are they going to fight?

How often does military carry a loaded firearm? Or a loaded firearm in "hostile" territory?

When we deployed we spent a couple weeks at the range qualifying on all of our weapons, doing buddy movements, crew served, from mounted, etc. When not deployed then yea once a year you have to qualify. Some units get to shoot more depending on your battalion and MOS.

I don't know what the AF MPs do for qual or range time but it should be more then yearly. Although that's no different then a regular PD.

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OC for ME · Feb 20, 2014

The real issue is why do all of these agencies require training now (or, more recently) than what they did in the past. A cop buddy of mine down in SC was required to demonstrate proficiency once a year by his cop shop. Being a country boy, shooting was not a issue for he and his LEA knew it. Now, citified cops may be a different issue, especially citified cops from anti-liberty sates/cities.

Note: I never liked shooting military arms as a submarine sailor. Didn't see a need to be real good with a gun as a sailor. me being a country boy, those Navy "instructors" were far below what I would call proficient shots. I'm sure they could put supper on the table using a gun if they had enough time and ammo.

solus · Feb 20, 2014

OC for ME said:
The real issue is why do all of these agencies require training now (or, more recently) than what they did in the past. A cop buddy of mine down in SC was required to demonstrate proficiency once a year by his cop shop. Being a country boy, shooting was not a issue for he and his LEA knew it. Now, citified cops may be a different issue, especially citified cops from anti-liberty sates/cities.

Note: I never liked shooting military arms as a submarine sailor. Didn't see a need to be real good with a gun as a sailor. me being a country boy, those Navy "instructors" were far below what I would call proficient shots. I'm sure they could put supper on the table using a gun if they had enough time and ammo.

not sure OC4me, if it is more training event per se, but rather there are those who have become aware of the fact of training and now saying what the hey and wring their hands?

this coupled with the great al gore invention which brings instantaneous information - accurate or not, to the multitudes!

ipse

DocWalker · Feb 20, 2014

Primus said:
How often does military carry a loaded firearm? Or a loaded firearm in "hostile" territory?

When we deployed we spent a couple weeks at the range qualifying on all of our weapons, doing buddy movements, crew served, from mounted, etc. When not deployed then yea once a year you have to qualify. Some units get to shoot more depending on your battalion and MOS.

I don't know what the AF MPs do for qual or range time but it should be more then yearly. Although that's no different then a regular PD.

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I was in the medical field but worked with the Army for 7 years (twice with the 2nd Rangers). I retired and worked with security forces manning the gates and friends with a lot of the cops. They only had to live fire once a year, carried every work day, and had to qualify before deploying.

My primary weapon was the M9 (9mm for those that are not familiar) but would qualify once a year and before deployments also.

1991 Desert Storm I didn't carry anything as I was in the northern mountains taking care of the Kurds, we had good security protecting us and I was to young to know any better.

2003 Afghanistan M9, carried every place I went.

2005 Iraq M9, not always loaded.

My point is why does DHS have to qualify every month and the US military once a year if not expecting combat???? Makes you wonder what they are preparing for.

Primus · Feb 20, 2014

DocWalker said:
I was in the medical field but worked with the Army for 7 years (twice with the 2nd Rangers). I retired and worked with security forces manning the gates and friends with a lot of the cops. They only had to live fire once a year, carried every work day, and had to qualify before deploying.

My primary weapon was the M9 (9mm for those that are not familiar) but would qualify once a year and before deployments also.

1991 Desert Storm I didn't carry anything as I was in the northern mountains taking care of the Kurds, we had good security protecting us and I was to young to know any better.

2003 Afghanistan M9, carried every place I went.

2005 Iraq M9, not always loaded.

My point is why does DHS have to qualify every month and the US military once a year if not expecting combat???? Makes you wonder what they are preparing for.

Maybe the military should qualify MORE then not DHS less.... its one of those negative arguments like "well we can't so they shouldn't be able to either". As opposed to positive argument "they can so we should too". Does that make sense?

Personally, if you carry a gun whether your a medic, infantry, cop, MP, admin, I don't care... you should be proficient and shoot as much as possible.

I agree on the annual qualification for the military, as I said most years that's all my unit would do too. But I'll also be the first to say we should shoot ALOT more. We have infantry guys in my company that can't qualify in paper. Why? Because they get 2 days a year to shoot. (On average year). So a RIFLEMAN.... can't qualify with his rifle.. bad idea. Same with MPs.. we've run ranges for then and some can't hit the broad side of the barn.

Again.... we all need MORE range time not less. Especially cop shops. We only qualify once a year. I'm given 100 RDS a year to practice. That's it. The rest I buy. If you carry a gun and are expected to discharge said firearm in the defense of yourself or others then you should be a great shot. Not average.. not ok I get a couple RDS on target taking my time at the range.... but a real good one. Its sad how little we are required to shoot and even worse how few guys shoot on their own.

If DHS has guys on our city streets with guns that may potentially have to use said gun around us, then the question should be why aren't they at the range more?

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Fuller Malarkey · Feb 20, 2014

DocWalker said:
Most military members only hit the range once a year unless you are in special forces or something. USAF Security Police are only required to "live fire" once a year or before deployment.

Nice to see DHS gets more range time than the US Military. I do wonder why they would need so much range time? Who are they going to fight?

I see this critical question was evaded. We're adults and need to deal with reality.

Who is DHS [Department of Homeland Security] training and stocking ammo to fight?

solus · Feb 20, 2014

Fuller Malarkey said:
I see this critical question was evaded. We're adults and need to deal with reality.

Who is DHS [Department of Homeland Security] training and stocking ammo to fight?

Please do not forget, homeland has supplied, through grants, a huge and a massive amount of automatic firearms (and other militarization type equipment) to local police agencies throughout the country.

Surely, po-dunk country-bumpkin, dip-u-t wants (no primus i am truly not referring to you so don't take it as a slam to you personally) to shoot the purty, nice, big, guns supplied by their benefactor(s) - the feds.

that is who is training and shooting the ammo across this here United States!

ipse

WalkingWolf · Feb 20, 2014

DocWalker said:
Most military members only hit the range once a year unless you are in special forces or something. USAF Security Police are only required to "live fire" once a year or before deployment.

Nice to see DHS gets more range time than the US Military. I do wonder why they would need so much range time? Who are they going to fight?

Keep in mind that is spread over four years, so that is not that much ammo for each officer. But I don't know how much range time DHS cops get. FBI agents and US Marshals probably easily shoot 200+ rounds a month. But I am not sure if their ammo is with the DHS purchase.

WalkingWolf · Feb 20, 2014

solus said:
Please do not forget, homeland has supplied, through grants, a huge and a massive amount of automatic firearms (and other militarization type equipment) to local police agencies throughout the country.

Surely, po-dunk country-bumpkin, dip-u-t wants (no primus i am truly not referring to you so don't take it as a slam to you personally) to shoot the purty, nice, big, guns supplied by their benefactor(s) - the feds.

that is who is training and shooting the ammo across this here United States!

ipse

From what I have seen there is a big divide between local departments and training. Some are very active and possibly overboard. Others do that once a year thang.

Primus · Feb 20, 2014

WalkingWolf said:
From what I have seen there is a big divide between local departments and training. Some are very active and possibly overboard. Others do that once a year thang.

WalkingWolf said:
Keep in mind that is spread over four years, so that is not that much ammo for each officer. But I don't know how much range time DHS cops get. FBI agents and US Marshals probably easily shoot 200+ rounds a month. But I am not sure if their ammo is with the DHS purchase.

+1

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OC for ME · Feb 20, 2014

I wonder if mag dumps are trained.

There is a great difference between live fire training, knowing what the gun will do when you shoot a real bullet, and tactical training where simulators (shoot houses?) are all that you need. Unless, of course, live fire exercises are incorporating tactical scenarios, then that would be a waste of ammo.

WalkingWolf · Feb 20, 2014

OC for ME said:
I wonder if mag dumps are trained.

There is a great difference between live fire training, knowing what the gun will do when you shoot a real bullet, and tactical training where simulators (shoot houses?) are all that you need. Unless, of course, live fire exercises are incorporating tactical scenarios, then that would be a waste of ammo.

One of the arguments I got from some people that Glocks are faster dumping the ammo. Like that is a good thing. Ammo dumps are a disgrace, unless they are done by a soldier for cover fire. I see no need to train LE to spray and pray, they already have a tendency to do that now.

LE should be limited to 10 round mags, but only LE. Only kidding but it would limit the spray and pray bad habits. Current LEOs will be along shortly to complain how they need more rounds because they feel under gunned.

OC for ME · Feb 20, 2014

WalkingWolf said:
One of the arguments I got from some people that Glocks are faster dumping the ammo. Like that is a good thing. Ammo dumps are a disgrace, unless they are done by a soldier for cover fire. I see no need to train LE to spray and pray, they already have a tendency to do that now.

LE should be limited to 10 round mags, but only LE. Only kidding but it would limit the spray and pray bad habits. Current LEOs will be along shortly to complain how they need more rounds because they feel under gunned.

One of the "cures" the military had for "spray and pray" that was done during the Vietnam War was to make the "M-16" select fire with three round burst vs. full auto. I understand "in the heat of the moment" and a three round burst may not provide enough cover fire.

There was a video submitted in one thread that showed a cop, California I think, who thought he saw a weapon and dumped 11 rounds into the citizen, who was getting out of his car, in his own driveway. No weapon was found it seems. Some of the comments by his fellow officers after the shoot were quite revealing.

Anyway. I do not know what I would do in a firefight, not ever being in one, I hope that I would have more trigger discipline. I also hope I do not have to test myself.

Homeland’ purchasing 700m rounds of ammo

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