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Thread: Let's start a new Grassroots Gun Organization

  1. #1
    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Let's start a new Grassroots Gun Organization

    We can call it VGDL and copy all of VCDL's programs and send out ALERTS and not have to come up with an original idea.

    Stupid idea ?....well yes, if it isn't criminal it should be.

    Then why did I see Ken Cuccinelli and Tom Garrett's new Virginia Self Defense Law firm in the Va Alerts....that is simply a mirror of User's program and even firm name?

    I've defended Ken Cuccinelli for years but he just got demoted to assistant dog hunter!
    I hope no one falls for this and I'm not one bit impressed with VCDL for promoting it!

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    Should start a militia and having exercises ... once you show the state that your organization is capable of taking over then they will stop their anti-gun frenzy.

    Don't see too much anti-gun laws in Montana,,,

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    Accomplished Advocate user's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    Should start a militia and having exercises ... once you show the state that your organization is capable of taking over then they will stop their anti-gun frenzy.

    Don't see too much anti-gun laws in Montana,,,
    I think the tongue-in-cheek humor is referring to a VCDL "alert" I got today in which a new law firm is advertised. Compare www.VaSelfDefenseLaw.com with www.VirginiaLegalDefense.com. I'd be interested to know whether y'all think the names and logos are confusingly similar.

    What's particularly interesting to me is that it's an advertisement for a retainer fee based program, but there's no explanation of what a retainer is, nor exactly what you get for your money. (By the way, I've never charged a retainer, which is a periodic payment of money for the privilege of saying that so-and-so is your attorney; it does not pay for services or buy you any particular legal work, nor is it an advance against costs and fees. It does create a conflict of interest for the attorney with respect to persons with interests adverse to yours.)

    Also, they indicate that this is the very first self-defense law oriented law firm in Virginia, as if I hadn't been doing exactly that since, what, 1990 or thereabouts? It's true that my focus hasn't been primarily on defensive weapons law prior to about 2007, but it boggles the mind to think that these guys can say such a thing. And to say that when they've pretty much copied my stuff, and I know that Cuccinelli knows about me. I've got streams of email to and from him from as far back as 2009, if I recall correctly. So it's clearly not an innocent mistake.

    So, like, what's up with that? I hope they're not planning to be just another plea-bargain factory.
    Last edited by user; 02-22-2014 at 06:45 PM.
    Daniel L. Hawes - 540 347 2430 - HTTP://www.VirginiaLegalDefense.com

    By the way, nothing I say on this website as "user" should be taken as either advertising for attorney services or legal advice, merely personal opinion. Everyone having a question regarding the application of law to the facts of their situation should seek the advice of an attorney competent in the subject matter of the issues presented and licensed to practice in the relevant state.

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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    We can call it VGDL and copy all of VCDL's programs and send out ALERTS and not have to come up with an original idea.

    Stupid idea ?....well yes, if it isn't criminal it should be.

    Then why did I see Ken Cuccinelli and Tom Garrett's new Virginia Self Defense Law firm in the Va Alerts....that is simply a mirror of User's program and even firm name?

    I've defended Ken Cuccinelli for years but he just got demoted to assistant dog hunter!
    I hope no one falls for this and I'm not one bit impressed with VCDL for promoting it!

    Not only that, it appears those great VA 'attorneys' don't even know the correct acronym for Virginia's Concealed Handgun Permit... in the pulldown of their Pricing page they call it a "CCP"
    http://www.vaselfdefenselaw.com/pricing/

    The good news for you Peter... is they are charging CHPers MORE then those without a CHP (or as they call it a "CCP" ). No 'P4P' here!!

  5. #5
    Regular Member scouser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blk97F150 View Post
    Not only that, it appears those great VA 'attorneys' don't even know the correct acronym for Virginia's Concealed Handgun Permit... in the pulldown of their Pricing page they call it a "CCP"
    http://www.vaselfdefenselaw.com/pricing/

    The good news for you Peter... is they are charging CHPers MORE then those without a CHP (or as they call it a "CCP" ). No 'P4P' here!!
    I'm wondering if the "with CCP" pricing means they will do the filing of a person's permit application for them. In that case maybe there are some people out there who need to spend an extra $120 for their retainer over the course of the 5 years a permit costing no more than $50 would be valid for.

    Perhaps when someone takes the time to ask them exactly what "CCP" means and what all is involved we might have a better understanding of what their website is talking about. Someone has asked them havent they? There isn't anyone endorsing them without knowing exactly what they're endorsing, is there?

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    Quote Originally Posted by user View Post
    I think the tongue-in-cheek humor is referring to a VCDL "alert" I got today in which a new law firm is advertised. Compare www.VaSelfDefenseLaw.com with www.VirginiaLegalDefense.com. I'd be interested to know whether y'all think the names and logos are confusingly similar.
    I received the VCDL alert on my phone earlier today and immediately followed the link in the alert to the VSDL website. On the phone I could only see the main page.... none of the links to the other pages worked on the iPhone. I assumed this was an expansion of your firm. Especially with the Seal of Virginia (as you have on your website, and your avatar). It wasn't until I got home and was able to look the link up on the computer, and go to their 'About Us' page that I realized this was NOT connected to you.

    So yes... it seemed misleading to me at first.

    Edit: On closer inspection, the two seals are different... but at first glance, they sure appear very similar.
    Last edited by Blk97F150; 02-22-2014 at 07:13 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by scouser View Post
    I'm wondering if the "with CCP" pricing means they will do the filing of a person's permit application for them. In that case maybe there are some people out there who need to spend an extra $120 for their retainer over the course of the 5 years a permit costing no more than $50 would be valid for.

    Perhaps when someone takes the time to ask them exactly what "CCP" means and what all is involved we might have a better understanding of what their website is talking about. Someone has asked them havent they? There isn't anyone endorsing them without knowing exactly what they're endorsing, is there?
    Good idea. I just sent them an inquiry via their web form asking what the "CCP" means, and asking them to explain why there is a price difference between the 'with and without CCP'. I'll pass along any response I might receive.

    I can't answer your endorsing question though.... perhaps someone from the endorsing organization will clue us in??

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    Regular Member Thundar's Avatar
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    Damn it peter!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    We can call it VGDL and copy all of VCDL's programs and send out ALERTS and not have to come up with an original idea.

    Stupid idea ?....well yes, if it isn't criminal it should be.
    DAMN IT PETER!!!

    I thought you were finally done with the Northern Virginia P4P Central Committee, and were ready to form a real gun RIGHTS organization.

    Please don't tease me with a great title then dash my hopes in the actual post.

    OK all you gun rights people move along, nothing to see here. The Central Committee is still in control.
    He wore his gun outside his pants for all the honest world to see. Pancho & Lefty

    The millions of people, armed in the holy cause of liberty, and in such a country as that which we possess, are invincible by any force which our enemy can send against us....There is no retreat but in submission and slavery! ...The war is inevitable–and let it come! I repeat it, Sir, let it come …………. PATRICK HENRY speech 1776

  9. #9
    Regular Member Thundar's Avatar
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    The REAL Question....

    Quote Originally Posted by Blk97F150 View Post
    I received the VCDL alert on my phone earlier today and immediately followed the link in the alert to the VSDL website.
    ...

    So yes... it seemed misleading to me at first.

    Edit: On closer inspection, the two seals are different... but at first glance, they sure appear very similar.
    The real question we should be asking:

    Is there any connection between the VSDL Law Firm and anybody on the VCDL Central Committee?
    Last edited by Grapeshot; 02-23-2014 at 09:55 PM. Reason: Rule #19 + shouting.
    He wore his gun outside his pants for all the honest world to see. Pancho & Lefty

    The millions of people, armed in the holy cause of liberty, and in such a country as that which we possess, are invincible by any force which our enemy can send against us....There is no retreat but in submission and slavery! ...The war is inevitable–and let it come! I repeat it, Sir, let it come …………. PATRICK HENRY speech 1776

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    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    I've defended Ken Cuccinelli for years
    Better to learn late than never at all.

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    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thundar View Post
    DAMN IT PETER!!!

    I thought you were finally done with the Northern Virginia P4P Central Committee, and were ready to form a real gun RIGHTS organization.

    Please don't tease me with a great title then dash my hopes in the actual post.

    OK all you gun rights people move along, nothing to see here. The Central Committee is still in control.
    +1

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thundar View Post
    The real question we should be asking:

    Is there any connection between the VSDL Law Firm and anybody on the VCDL Central Committee?
    That may be a question for you, but thats not really a question that I have any interest in. I don't have an issue with VCDL members/CC/EM/BD/etc having a connection to other gun rights organizations. I don't see that as a problem in itself.

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thundar View Post
    DAMN IT PETER!!!

    I thought you were finally done with the Northern Virginia P4P Central Committee, and were ready to form a real gun RIGHTS organization.

    Please don't tease me with a great title then dash my hopes in the actual post.

    OK all you gun rights people move along, nothing to see here. The Central Committee is still in control.
    Why bother Thundar. We have three Barren years ahead. VCDL will be using the CHP card and getting it trampled on. The really bad bill of the year was the long gun bill and that necessitated shaking hands with anti's.

    The resounding success of the year was the Sunday Hunting bill which VCDL passed on but the NRA and an long list of other organizations helped with.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Not required, but giving fair warning.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thundar View Post
    The real question we should be asking:

    Is there any connection between the VSDL Law Firm and anybody on the VCDL Central Committee?
    Thundar - I find both your reference to "Central Commitee" and the suggestion that there might be any collusion between the BoD (Board of Directors) of VCDL both personally insulting and a slur on the organization.

    I understand your position on many things, but this goes entirely too far - it is over the top wrong. Trust that this will be the end of such unsubstantiated, manufactured, below the belt punches. The likes of this will not be tolerated.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    I wasn't going to say anything but as usual...I'm going to have to.

    My gripe with this is that in my opinion, putting the firm in the Alert showed poor judgement. Not that there was any connection between anyone, just that the new law firm pirated User's good name that he's worked very hard to earn...key word there is earn.

    Casting any shadow on Grapeshot or for that matter, anyone on the "Central Committee" is wrong. There is no one I know that has more integrity or is a better friend to ALL gun owners than Grape and assuming I know who the Central Committee is, everyone on it.

    You know Thundar....you can't hate everyone out there, it gets lonesome.

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    Regular Member Thundar's Avatar
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    A question about connection does not equal a suggestion of collusion

    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Thundar - I find both your reference to "Central Commitee" and the suggestion that there might be any collusion between the BoD (Board of Directors) of VCDL both personally insulting and a slur on the organization.

    I understand your position on many things, but this goes entirely too far - it is over the top wrong. Trust that this will be the end of such unsubstantiated, manufactured, below the belt punches. The likes of this will not be tolerated.
    I find it very offensive that you twist my words and stretch connection to collusion. I made no such accusation of collusion.

    It was a question, not a statement, and not a bad question. Do you not wonder how a law firm that has just begun to represent gun owners and asks for money up front gets a plug? Believe me, I am not the only one that wonders how this "out of the blue" endorsement made its way onto a VCDL Alert.

    Coincidence? Random?? Maybe, but asking if anybody in the non-profit organization is connected to a law firm that will clearly benefit from the plug is not an unsubstantiated, manufactured, below the belt punch. Forgive me for my healthy skepticism , but my question comes from a Libertarian mind that has seen first hand much from VCDL and VCDL PAC.

    If you are offended by the term central committee, I apologize and I will not use the term again. I do not, however, really understand what is so offensive about the term.

    Live Free or Die,
    Thundar
    He wore his gun outside his pants for all the honest world to see. Pancho & Lefty

    The millions of people, armed in the holy cause of liberty, and in such a country as that which we possess, are invincible by any force which our enemy can send against us....There is no retreat but in submission and slavery! ...The war is inevitable–and let it come! I repeat it, Sir, let it come …………. PATRICK HENRY speech 1776

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thundar View Post
    I find it very offensive that you twist my words and stretch connection to collusion. I made no such accusation of collusion.

    It was a question, not a statement, and not a bad question. Do you not wonder how a law firm that has just begun to represent gun owners and asks for money up front gets a plug? Believe me, I am not the only one that wonders how this "out of the blue" endorsement made its way onto a VCDL Alert.

    Coincidence? Random?? Maybe, but asking if anybody in the non-profit organization is connected to a law firm that will clearly benefit from the plug is not an unsubstantiated, manufactured, below the belt punch. Forgive me for my healthy skepticism , but my question comes from a Libertarian mind that has seen first hand much from VCDL and VCDL PAC.

    If you are offended by the term central committee, I apologize and I will not use the term again. I do not, however, really understand what is so offensive about the term.

    Live Free or Die,
    Thundar
    Central Committee is a very well known and recognized descriptor/title for certain communist run dictatorships run by a committee of party elites. That applied to VCDL is a huge insult.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Committee

    Further you did not simple ask an inquiring casual question - you shouted it in 5 pt. bold font. I edited it/reduced the font size in keeping with the rules.

    You said, "The real question we should be asking is.............." Those are your words, I did not twist them.

    Me thinks thou doth protesteth too much, sir.

    I also think you owe this forum and VCDL an apology for placing that question before us w/o a scintilla of evidence except your imagination.

    I assure you, I will entertain no more references of this type to go unanswered. 'Nuff said, I trust.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    I wasn't going to say anything but as usual...I'm going to have to.

    My gripe with this is that in my opinion, putting the firm in the Alert showed poor judgement. Not that there was any connection between anyone, just that the new law firm pirated User's good name that he's worked very hard to earn...key word there is earn.

    Casting any shadow on Grapeshot or for that matter, anyone on the "Central Committee" is wrong. There is no one I know that has more integrity or is a better friend to ALL gun owners than Grape and assuming I know who the Central Committee is, everyone on it.

    You know Thundar....you can't hate everyone out there, it gets lonesome.
    +1

  19. #19
    Regular Member Thundar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Central Committee is a very well known and recognized descriptor/title for certain communist run dictatorships run by a committee of party elites. That applied to VCDL is a huge insult.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Committee

    Further you did not simple ask an inquiring casual question - you shouted it in 5 pt. bold font. I edited it/reduced the font size in keeping with the rules.

    You said, "The real question we should be asking is.............." Those are your words, I did not twist them.

    Me thinks thou doth protesteth too much, sir.

    I also think you owe this forum and VCDL an apology for placing that question before us w/o a scintilla of evidence except your imagination.

    I assure you, I will entertain no more references of this type to go unanswered. 'Nuff said, I trust.
    First let us be clear, sir. I have not accused anybody of anything. It was not me that conflated a question about a connection into a false accusation that I accused VCDL of collusion. When you look up collusion in the thesaurus, the first synonym is conspiracy. Please sir dial it back so that we can have a rational discussion.

    How can it be that I must provide evidence in order to ask a question? Limiting the act of inquiring to situations where the answer (evidence) is known would require all questions to be rhetorical.

    A central committee more generally refers to a centralized political committee that makes decisions for the organization. That you are offended by the term, but continue to serve on the Board of Directors seems odd to me. This is especially so since the Wiki site you provide references board of directors. BTW both the Democrat and Republican parties have had central committees. Again sorry if the term offends you, I won't use it again.

    That the question was in 5 point is not really the issue we are still going back and forth about. You are right, I have read the rules and evidently we must not type with big bold letters. We both know that this is not about font size. You did not like the large font that I used and edited it. If that was the issue, then it would be over and we would not still be writing about it.

    Yes I did use the word real as an adjective for the word "question." Would a different adjective, perhaps the word important, have made a difference? No it would not.

    I am sorry that my words were too big and bolded.

    I am not sorry that I asked a question.

    It was not my intent to offend by using central committee.

    It is late. Good night sir.
    He wore his gun outside his pants for all the honest world to see. Pancho & Lefty

    The millions of people, armed in the holy cause of liberty, and in such a country as that which we possess, are invincible by any force which our enemy can send against us....There is no retreat but in submission and slavery! ...The war is inevitable–and let it come! I repeat it, Sir, let it come …………. PATRICK HENRY speech 1776

  20. #20
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    This entire episode of only asking a question reminds me of Senator Joe McArthy.
    He posed the question, "Are you now or have you ever been a member of the Communist Party?" and continued to defend his tactics. In so doing he cast doubt on the loyalty of the person in question. Initially people were afraid to rebut his implied/indirect accusation for fear of retaliation. Eventually his tactics were his undoing and he was heavily censored.

    I see this in a similar vein and will respond accordingly.

    Forum Rules

    (12) NO BASHING OF OTHER GUN RIGHTS ORGANIZATIONS: Regardless of how convinced you are that another gun rights organization is not doing their job, this is not the place to air those concerns unless they are specifically related to an anti-open carry position taken by that organization. All other rants against other gun rights groups will be deleted or the thread locked.

    Yes anyone that wishes to my start another gun rights organization - that is even pointed out in the Forum Rules.

    However to use the tactics of Senator Joe McArthy to question the integrity of the BoD of VCDL w/o any hint of impropriety in evidence is not going to be allowed - it smacks of a witch hunt.

    That is a called decision which will stand unless reversed by John.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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