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Thread: Virginia Self Defense Law

  1. #1
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    Virginia Self Defense Law

    In the thread that was locked I mentioned contacting VSDL inquiring about their use of the term "CCP" on their Retainer Plan Pricing page, as well as their reasoning behind charging higher prices for those who have a "CCP". I have received the reply below.

    I request that anyone who replies to this thread please keep it on topic, and not stray to other organizations.

    Mods.. my only interest in starting this thread was to wrap up a 'loose end' on my part from the previous thread. If this thread is too close to the thread that was closed, free to close this one as well, with my apologies.

    -------------------------------------
    Sorry about the delay in response to your email, we had a technical glitch in our website that has since been fixed. I have been assured that this will not happen again.

    CCP stands for Concealed Carry Permit. This is actually incorrect terminology for the Commonwealth of Virginia. The correct term is Concealed Handgun Permit, CHP. This was a mix up with our web design integrator in California. He has since corrected the mix up in terminology.

    Further, a CCP allows you to carry your personal firearm in a concealed fashion. You have to apply for one through your local Circuit Court after completing a handgun safety course.

    The difference in price is an analysis on our part to determine the frequency of an individual carrying their firearm. We think that if an individual has a CHP then they are more likely to carry it (we think this is a good thing) and increases the odds of a client needing our services.

    I hope this makes sense, If you have any questions, please do not hesitate to contact us further.

    Torrey Williams
    Attorney
    Virginia Self Defense Law PLC

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    Regular Member 2a4all's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blk97F150 View Post
    In the thread that was locked I mentioned contacting VSDL inquiring about their use of the term "CCP" on their Retainer Plan Pricing page, as well as their reasoning behind charging higher prices for those who have a "CCP". I have received the reply below.

    The difference in price is an analysis on our part to determine the frequency of an individual carrying their firearm. We think that if an individual has a CHP then they are more likely to carry it (we think this is a good thing) and increases the odds of a client needing our services.

    I hope this makes sense, If you have any questions, please do not hesitate to contact us further.

    Torrey Williams
    Attorney
    Virginia Self Defense Law PLC
    Well, this is certainly a new wrinkle in the "Pay for Play" concept. You paid for the ticket, now pay (extra) in case you use it.
    A law-abiding citizen should be able to carry his personal protection firearm anywhere that an armed criminal might go.

    Member VCDL, NRA

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    And they use Paypal?

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    I got the same response when I contacted them.

    "A workman is known by the quality of his product." All the eyes on the proofs reviewed before the website was launched and that slipped through? (They did review proofs, didn't they?)

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
    ----Allahpundit

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    Regular Member wrearick's Avatar
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    I am not overly impressed with their expertise. Even after admitting the information was incorrect (and in effect blaming the error on the web design integrator) Mr. Williams continues to use incorrect/impercise terminology - "Further, a CCP allows you to carry your personal firearm in a concealed fashion. You have to apply for one through your local Circuit Court after completing a handgun safety course."

    If he had said CHP I believe the statement would be applicable to Virginia. Since Virginia doesn't have a CCP I am not sure in which parts of the country his statement is correct. I know of serveral states where a CCP includes items other than firearms and a handgun safety course is not part of the requirement. Since they "specialize" in Virginia Law, I would expect them to limit their statements to conditions/laws in Virginia. This is especially true since the person asking the question was from Virginia and specifically asked about Virginia terminology and rules. You would NEVER catch USER making such a mistake. JMHO.

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    I wanted to share some additional information. On the VCDL Facebook page, this subject came up, and among the discussion items was the retainer offered by the company. The definition that was given by User here was shared. Apparently the VSDL's offering is not correctly labeled as a "retainer."

    I've pasted the response below.

    TFred

    Torrey Williams Thought I would jump on here and address some of the rumors that are going around about Virginia Self Defense Law PLC. I am one of the Four founding attorneys and can put some of the confusion to rest.

    Our retainer agreement includes full representation of our clients. If the client has a use of force incident arising out of self defense or a law enforcement officer harassment situation then we will step in and defend our clients for no additional legal fees.

    Therefore, Justine and Theron are incorrect about our firm and the agreement that we offer. It is also interesting to point out that those who are misleading others about our firm are directly tied to our direct competitors.

    We agree it is important to know exactly what you are getting, so if you have any questions we openly invite the conversation to accurately educate you on our firm and services.

    There are a couple different reasons that we are better then the national options.

    (1) We are a firm founded by Virginia lawyers who know Virginia Law. If you called one of the national plans they would not know what VA Code 18.2-282 was without searching on Google. Our lawyers have a combined experience of over 50 years practicing law in Virginia, including Ken Cuccinelli with 4 years as Attorney General.

    (2) Many of the national plans cap the amount of expenses that they are willing to pay (for example $200,000.00). We have no cap, if you retain our firm, we will represent you through the engagement for no additional legal fee.

    (3) Finally, many of the national plans have a vested interest in finding you the cheapest lawyer they can find as their main motive is profit. With VSDL PLC, you know who your attorneys will be if you ever have to call upon them.

  7. #7
    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TFred View Post
    I wanted to share some additional information. On the VCDL Facebook page, this subject came up, and among the discussion items was the retainer offered by the company. The definition that was given by User here was shared. Apparently the VSDL's offering is not correctly labeled as a "retainer."

    I've pasted the response below.

    TFred
    Torrey Williams Thought I would jump on here and address some of the rumors that are going around about Virginia Self Defense Law PLC. I am one of the Four founding attorneys and can put some of the confusion to rest.

    Our retainer agreement includes full representation of our clients. If the client has a use of force incident arising out of self defense or a law enforcement officer harassment situation then we will step in and defend our clients for no additional legal fees.

    Therefore, Justine and Theron are incorrect about our firm and the agreement that we offer. It is also interesting to point out that those who are misleading others about our firm are directly tied to our direct competitors.

    We agree it is important to know exactly what you are getting, so if you have any questions we openly invite the conversation to accurately educate you on our firm and services.

    There are a couple different reasons that we are better then the national options.

    (1) We are a firm founded by Virginia lawyers who know Virginia Law. If you called one of the national plans they would not know what VA Code 18.2-282 was without searching on Google. Our lawyers have a combined experience of over 50 years practicing law in Virginia, including Ken Cuccinelli with 4 years as Attorney General.

    (2) Many of the national plans cap the amount of expenses that they are willing to pay (for example $200,000.00). We have no cap, if you retain our firm, we will represent you through the engagement for no additional legal fee.

    (3) Finally, many of the national plans have a vested interest in finding you the cheapest lawyer they can find as their main motive is profit. With VSDL PLC, you know who your attorneys will be if you ever have to call upon them.

    I think that as time goes on TFred, we'll find there are a lot of legal items they have neglected or incorrectly labeled.
    I don't expect them to last long.

  8. #8
    Founder's Club Member Tess's Avatar
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    I thought Brian Reynolds provided a good analysis of this:

    Posted with Brian's permission.

    +++++++++++++++++++++++
    Lots of posts on this lately but let me give you the real scoop on this.

    First, Cuccinelli is a great guy. Likes guns and gun owners and as a
    politician, was a decent AG and certainly awesome in the GA.

    However, his decision-making as of the last few years has demonstrated an
    unfortunate trend and spiral downward. His arbitrary decision to run for
    Governor was 4 years too early and as such his hasty decisions to hire a
    team of political hacks to run his campaign was the beginning of his
    demise.

    Equally, the top caucuses and political factions with $$ did not want him
    to run yet and did not fund his campaign to the degree needed to win.

    It left us, Virginians and gun owners, with a candidate who simply could
    not win, would be tossed out of politics so to speak and left us with a
    complete and utter anti-gun AG who is certainly testing his boundaries
    which will eventually come around to our gun rights. Thanks Ken.

    Anyway, Tom Garrett began this firm, not Cuccinelli... Cuccinelli is simply
    a figure head so they can (and actually do) have a life-sized stand up cut
    out at the gun shows for their VSDL table. Not even debatable whether
    Cuccinelli will be taking on cases with that firm--believe me, for your
    $150/yr retainer, you are not getting Ken Cuccinelli, who frankly, is
    likely a questionable litigator in real life as it is.

    I and others have had many chats with Ken and while I do like him and most
    of his patriotic efforts, he is not really into the self-defense,
    gun-rights fields as someone I would want defending me. Just because the
    claim that this firm is into that practice area hard and fast, don't be
    upset if you know more by being a VCDL member and involved in these threads
    than they do.

    To that point, Ed Levine actually had to communicate with Cuccinelli
    personally to say, hey, ******* (my ad lib) your new website says CCW--we
    don't have CCW in VA, its CHP and here is the code and the reasons we don't
    call it CCW. Right out of the box with this cheap $2 website they
    demonstrate their lack of knowledge while at the same time asking for
    upfront money.

    Second, the money. Their gig is not first for the client or client's
    rights by establishing a firm to only deal with these. No, Ken will not be
    litigating cases and these guys all have other firms and dozens of other
    practice areas that they deal with each day. This new firm is simply a
    group of decent attorneys who decided to take advantage of the times and as
    the marketing vehicle, use the "retainer" ploy to suck $120 to $200+/yr
    from folks and roll the dice on reality that gun folks really don't get in
    that much trouble in the first place and those cases that you do hear about
    here or around the country, typically have other sides that you may not
    hear which would, under a bit of scrutiny, negate representation, etc.

    They are playing a numbers game--lets use Cuccinelli as the front man and
    pull in 2K retainers at $150/yr which is $300K. Meanwhile, we will all
    work our regular practices and if we get a VSDL case we will handle it with
    the retainer for that year (the moment the year is up and you had no cause
    to contact or use them, they split your retainer between the firm's
    attorneys as profit).

    Their presentation is crap, their execution is flawed and they are not
    taking into account that Cuccinelli, as their front man is really not all
    the popular with us gun owners. He had, what, one decent AG opinion and
    two or three questionable or bad ones in our eyes. Then he ran and
    basically abandoned a major post to keep the idiots at bay and ultimately
    does not know that much about this practice area.

    For advice, retainer, representation on gun rights and self-defense, likely
    the best route since Richard Gardiner took himself out of the game is
    Matthew Bergstrom's firm who now has a local attorney in the firm who has
    successful murder trial experience to handle criminal litigation and he
    eats and breaths gun rights, and Dan Hawes who has forgot more about gun
    law than the collective of VSDL attorneys will ever learn.
    Laws alone can not secure freedom of expression; in order that every man present his views without penalty there must be spirit of tolerance in the entire population. -Albert Einstein

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Gotta give that two snaps and a circle....Pretty close to dead center.
    I can't wait to hear Philip's "yeah but" response.

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    Founder's Club Member - Moderator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Media reporting on this suffers from some inaccuracies.....deliberate?

    http://thinkprogress.org/justice/201...shoot-people/#

    http://www.roanoke.com/news/columns_...a4bcf6878.html
    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time.

    Yata hey

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Media reporting on this suffers from some inaccuracies.....deliberate?

    http://thinkprogress.org/justice/201...shoot-people/#

    http://www.roanoke.com/news/columns_...a4bcf6878.html
    Don't they always!

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    Founder's Club Member - Moderator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    Don't they always!
    Met Dan Casey once. He's the kind of guy you can sit down and chat comfortably with at a picnic - which is where we were. He wasn't at all intimidated or frightened by the guns being carried - didn't make any snide remarks either. Seemed like a normal, reasonable person - I was wrong. He makes his living trash talking and defaming good honest people - creating controversy for its own sake.

    What disappoints me is that I gave him benefit of the doubt, thinking that he meant well. He didn't and still does not. I doubt he even believes what he writes, but it does pay his bills. Sadly that is less than honorable.....it is not excuseable.
    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time.

    Yata hey

  13. #13
    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Met Dan Casey once. He's the kind of guy you can sit down and chat comfortably with at a picnic - which is where we were. He wasn't at all intimidated or frightened by the guns being carried - didn't make any snide remarks either. Seemed like a normal, reasonable person - I was wrong. He makes his living trash talking and defaming good honest people - creating controversy for its own sake.

    What disappoints me is that I gave him benefit of the doubt, thinking that he meant well. He didn't and still does not. I doubt he even believes what he writes, but it does pay his bills. Sadly that is less than honorable.....it is not excuseable.
    The truth is actually very Dull Grape! Shock Jocks don't thrive on dull.

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Casey's article implies that having reasonable access to a good legal defense is somehow a bad thing. Two points worth highlighting:

    1. Even liberals are supposed to support the idea of innocent until proven guilty, and the right to a competent defense counsel.

    2. If Law Enforcement Agencies were perfect, then no legal use of deadly force would ever NEED a defense, because no one would ever be unjustly charged with a crime for doing so.

    So, liberals, you can't have your cake and eat it too... either you support not charging people with crimes for defending themselves, OR you need to support access to reasonable and competent defense counsel when unjust charges ARE made.

    TFred

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    Accomplished Advocate user's Avatar
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    Just a footnote.

    Take a look at the Virginia State Corporation Commission, Clerk's Information System website at:https://cisiweb.scc.virginia.gov/z_container.aspx; click the menu item that says, "name search all entities", and look up "Virginia Self Defense Law PLC".

    Then, to select the proper firm off the list, click the little box and type any character into it and hit "enter".

    Select the option that says, "Data Summary", and see whose name and address you see listed there. That's the official registration and constitutes "truth" as far as corporate entities are concerned.
    Last edited by user; 03-05-2014 at 09:28 AM.
    Daniel L. Hawes - 540 347 2430 - HTTP://www.VirginiaLegalDefense.com

    By the way, nothing I say on this website as "user" should be taken as either advertising for attorney services or legal advice, merely personal opinion. Everyone having a question regarding the application of law to the facts of their situation should seek the advice of an attorney competent in the subject matter of the issues presented and licensed to practice in the relevant state.

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    Regular Member Red Dawg's Avatar
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    Holy crap Mr Hawes...That has to be against some kind of contract or Corporation laws...It's definitely a misleading organization those gents have set up.
    The Second Amendment is in place
    in case the politicians ignore the others

    A gun in the hand is better than a cop on the phone

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    Founder's Club Member - Moderator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmelvin View Post
    Very slick.

    --snipped--
    So see I.

    Last edited by Grapeshot; 03-05-2014 at 10:35 AM.
    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time.

    Yata hey

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    ...Well darn. Does that give you the technical ability to shut it down?

  20. #20
    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    My tongue in cheek question of the day is.......would you hire a lifeguard that can't swim.
    Next question is..........Who would recommend a lifeguard that can't swim


  21. #21
    Founder's Club Member - Moderator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    My tongue in cheek question of the day is.......would you hire a lifeguard that can't swim.
    Next question is..........Who would recommend a lifeguard that can't swim
    Especially when there are sharks out there..........Ooops, my bad.
    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time.

    Yata hey

  22. #22
    Activist Member Wolf_shadow's Avatar
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    After looking at User's registration on the State Commerce Commission I sent a contact to VA Self Defense Law and got this reply;
    Yes, and it took eight months of work with the SCC as well as the VSB to get there. Thanks!
    TG
    On Mar 8, 2014 2:40 PM, "John Xxxxxx" xxxxxxxxxxx-emt@verizon.net>
    wrote:
    From:
    John Xxxxxx <xxxxxxxxxxx-emt@verizon.net>
    Subject:
    Your Company

    Message Body:
    Is your company registered with the State
    Corporation Commission, and if so under what Name?

    --
    This e-mail was
    sent from a contact form on Virginia Self-Defense Law (http://www.vaselfdefenselaw.com)

    Then I also received This:
    Our company is registered with the Virginia SCC under VSDLAW PLC. I hope this
    answers your question. If I can help you further please do not hesitate to email me back.

    Many thanks,

    Torrey
    Williams
    Attorney
    Virginia Self Defense Law, PLC
    Wonder why it took eight months to get around Dan's registration.
    Yes I carry a Bible and a Gun, your point.
    Vindiciae Contra Tyrannos (meaning: "A defence of liberty against tyrants")
    Benjamin Franklin said, "A government that does not trust it's citizens with guns is a government that should not be trusted."



  23. #23
    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wolf_shadow View Post
    After looking at User's registration on the State Commerce Commission I sent a contact to VA Self Defense Law and got this reply;

    Then I also received This:

    Wonder why it took eight months to get around Dan's registration.

    Figures!

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